Toyota R&D Reading, We Want a 70 Series

[Gumby]

This quote contradicts itself. First their engineers inform them that IFS is ``more capable overall'' than a ``solid axle'' yet then later say that ``extreme offroad capability is [not] important...'' This is not consistent.

I find it very hard to believe that a live axle is not ``economically viable.'' Assuming this was done at design phase, I can't imagine IFS systems to be cheaper to build. Sure it's not viable to retrofit a live axle onto the frame and system as it exists now.

What they mean here (reading between the lines) is they didn't take the time to re-design anything other than the driveshaft lengths and extend/shorten the frame. They used an existing platform. That's why it's not viable to start out designing. Do I blame them? No, but this ain't any more capable than a 4Skinner or other like platform.

Pray tell what are the ``safety aspects'' of IFS? Is my 80 series in question here?

Another thing:

Wheel travel does not equal articulation!

The whole point of articulation is that I get corresponding reaction on the other side of the axle to travel on one end. That's the whole point of a live axle.

First of all, you can't read too much into an internet post. There are things that are not said completely to make a short and readable statement.

Secondly - The designer says that IFS is better overall. How does that equate into a contradiction of not extreme off road capable. Overall is overall. There is little question that IFS is better overall.

How is it that it would be cheaper to redesign the whole front end of a chassis already in production? To redesign the whole thing for one model would, in fact, be much more expensive. There is no way they could offer it for under $20K if they started with a clean sheet of paper. Just the retooling would kill the project. It may be more capable than the already very capable 4Runner because it is shorter and with less overhangs, with less dangly parts like running boards and the Runner's monster bumpers.

Do you dispute that an IFS handles on the road better? If it does, then it is safer than a live axle. When you corner too fast with an IFS, the tires stay more planted. When you hit a bump at high speed the truck stays much more in contact with the road. You 80 series is not as safe on the road as a 100 series or a Sequoia. You make handling allowences for it's off road capabilities.

I don't know there was a point to a live axle other than it was expediant to engineer an axle like that back at the turn of the century. It's not like some engineer thought up the idea recently in response to the needs of rock crawlers. Whether it works better in some situations is another long and overdone debate.

 

[semlin]

Safety is a good point. Think about the SUV freeway rollover "scandal" a few years ago. I am sure a solid axle could be done, but Toyota would be taking a chance on getting sued for going back to SFA when the IFS works better on the freeway where most people will be driving their FJ. Still don't u/s why TRD couldn't offer an SAS kit that would save your warranty but you'd probably end up with big printed warnings on the dash board about changing lanes suddenly on the freeway. Hopefully, they will save those for the 70 series.

 

[HZJ60 Guy]

this is exactlee the clear thinking that will bring Toyota to their knees....I'm surprised they don't do it simply to please you.

Alright alright. I wasnt serious about that, just trying to make a point. I would buy a 74 the minute it landed on our shores.


Is that better?


Tom

 

[HZJ60 Guy]

First of all, you can't read too much into an internet post. There are things that are not said completely to make a short and readable statement.

Secondly - The designer says that IFS is better overall. How does that equate into a contradiction of not extreme off road capable. Overall is overall. There is little question that IFS is better overall.

How is it that it would be cheaper to redesign the whole front end of a chassis already in production? To redesign the whole thing for one model would, in fact, be much more expensive. There is no way they could offer it for under $20K if they started with a clean sheet of paper. Just the retooling would kill the project. It may be more capable than the already very capable 4Runner because it is shorter and with less overhangs, with less dangly parts like running boards and the Runner's monster bumpers.

Do you dispute that an IFS handles on the road better? If it does, then it is safer than a live axle. When you corner too fast with an IFS, the tires stay more planted. When you hit a bump at high speed the truck stays much more in contact with the road. You 80 series is not as safe on the road as a 100 series or a Sequoia. You make handling allowences for it's off road capabilities.

I don't know there was a point to a live axle other than it was expediant to engineer an axle like that back at the turn of the century. It's not like some engineer thought up the idea recently in response to the needs of rock crawlers. Whether it works better in some situations is another long and overdone debate.

Better overall? What a crock. We're talking about LAND CRUISERS here. Nobody here cares whether a Cruiser rides better on the pavement than it does off road! Well all have CARS for that. There is nothing about IFS that makes a cruiser better off road! IFS is WEAK, it doesnt offer articulation, it's expensive, its inferior!

Fine Toyota, make all your OTHER vehicles IFS. LEAVE THE LAND CRUISERS STRAIGHT AXLE PLEASE!



TB

 

[ryanjl]

The 40,000 people that will be buying the FJ Cruiser every year, not the 5,000 off road purists who would be buying the 7X series in the USA, DO care how a vehicle drives on the street because that is where they will be driving it.

I'd better stop responding to your posts, as I'm sure I'm keeping you away from performing brain surgery, designing rockets, or winning the pulitzer.

 

[HZJ60 Guy]

The 40,000 people that will be buying the FJ Cruiser every year, not the 5,000 off road purists who would be buying the 7X series in the USA, DO care how a vehicle drives on the street because that is where they will be driving it.

I'd better stop responding to your posts, as I'm sure I'm keeping you away from performing brain surgery, designing rockets, or winning the pulitzer.

Oh good one, now youve sunken to insults. You know, when you do that you lose the arqument Mr..

Remember what I said, leave the land cruisers straight axle. We've already established that this new truck ISNT a land cruiser. It's a mass people pavement pounder. I dont care that it's IFS. When it comes to Land Cruisers leave them SA.


TB

 

[wesintl]

If toyota sells a limited # of 7x Series I will leave my computer right now to go put a deposit down. I would find a way to pay for even if it was more than I could afford. I would love to be a first owner of a real Land Cruiser.

 

[HZJ60 Guy]

If toyota sells a limited # of 7x Series I will leave my computer right now to go put a deposit down. I would find a way to pay for even if it was more than I could afford. I would love to be a first owner of a real Land Cruiser.

Me three.



TB

 

[bkg]

The 40,000 people that will be buying the FJ Cruiser every year, not the 5,000 off road purists who would be buying the 7X series in the USA, DO care how a vehicle drives on the street because that is where they will be driving it.

What about the 50k+ TJ sales per year? The nearly 100K Grand Cherokee sales per year (prior to the '05 version) or the 100K+ Dodge SFA truck sales per year?

I've owned 22 toyotas... but they no longer offer anything that I would consider worth buying. Toyota - it's your father's Oldsmobile.

 

[HZJ60 Guy]

What about the 50k+ TJ sales per year? The nearly 100K Grand Cherokee sales per year (prior to the '05 version) or the 100K+ Dodge SFA truck sales per year?

I've owned 22 toyotas... but they no longer offer anything that I would consider worth buying. Toyota - it's your father's Oldsmobile.

I agree, sadly. All the good Toyota stuff is found in bloody Australia!

Think of the set up you could have if you could figure out how to legally import trucks from Oz. At least easily that is.



TB

 

[woody]

let's see...

say they bring in a 70-series...old school leaf springs, adequate on road handling, great offroad handling (too bad the closest "offroad" place is 2 hours away, and that's forest roads that stocker can handle), probably 500k longevity (but it will rust out from under me in the meantime), freeway perfornance is marginal if you have ANY rush-hour traffic, too small/light to safely haul my 40 and trailer behind it....

damn...I can see the marketing opportunity now.

I would buy cause it would be kewl, and cause there is almost zero market for it in the United States.

The TINY group of users on 'MUD are FAR from the market that ToyotaUSA is trying to attract....we are the fringe. Period. Unless Toyota feels a need to market a specific vehicle for the 100 of us on here that CAN afford it and WOULD sacrafice many comforts just for the opportunity to drive something unique, I wouldn't bet on anything happening anytime soon.

BEST opportunity is for Aus/Can markets to end up having similar safety/emission requirements and to make retrofitting possible in the future....

 

[madams557]

That would be my point. IF Toyota considered bring the 70-series to the U.S., even for a short time, even in low numbers, it opens the door for all 70-series a little easier. Hell, bring a few to the U.S. and the rest through Canadian. Even better, decide to build them in Canadian, then they would be NAFTA exempt.

I would appreciate it if Toyota would at least list the 70-series with the NHTSA as an acceptable vehicle meeting all U.S. safety requirements - that alone would allow for easier importation. That would be the letter that everyone is looking for from the Manufacturer that is stalling 7#-series importation.

 

[aamiggia]

Some of the 78 models have coil fronts, no not just the pussy LJ's. A 3B-T diesel has (IIRC) 120 hp and close to 200 torque. Much like the Jeep Libery 2.8 CDi. The 1HZ diesels are 96kW @ 3800rpm and 285Nm @ 2200rpm. Not sure what the conversion is, but those look like good numbers .

How about a curb weight of 2115 kg (4653 lbs) and 3500 kg (7700 lb) towing capacity. Unless you have a VERY heavy trailer (>4200 lbs) I thing the 1HZ78 would be more than adequate to pull your 40

Check out www.brian894x4.com/LC78main.html

I've got a chubby ( ), just thinking about a LHD 70 series.

 

[bkg]

The TINY group of users on 'MUD are FAR from the market that ToyotaUSA is trying to attract....we are the fringe. Period. Unless Toyota feels a need to market a specific vehicle for the 100 of us on here that CAN afford it and WOULD sacrafice many comforts just for the opportunity to drive something unique, I wouldn't bet on anything happening anytime soon.

But hasn't this type of niche marketing been successful in the past? 'Vette, Viper, Rubicon, Lighting, 454SS, etc???

 

[FJBen]

I would give Toyota my wife if I could buy a 70 series new...she cooks well, cleans sometimes and has a sister i'll throw in to sweeten the deal...c'mon to tall skinny blondes???

Anyways...yes...i would be in line to get a 70 series easily...we have not bought a new car and own the 55 and 80 free and clear, but would pony up money for that!


TOYOTA...can you hear me...come to butthead...bring the 70 series!

 

[aamiggia]

But hasn't this type of niche marketing been successful in the past? 'Vette, Viper, Rubicon, Lighting, 454SS, etc???

It could be an investment too. Look at how much a leaky Defender 90 or 110 go for. Probably just as much as it was bought for. The had very limited importation in the mid 90's, like 200 units of the 110. In England they are a dime a dozen, but you can't legally import them.

 

[ryanjl]

But hasn't this type of niche marketing been successful in the past? 'Vette, Viper, Rubicon, Lighting, 454SS, etc???

All the vehicles you quoted are constructed by basically taking off-the shelf parts and putting them into a vehicle, with the exception of the Rubicon, for which they had to source e-lockers, and the Viper, which was designed as a flagship vehicle to entice more sales throughout the Dodge line.

The 70 series would have to be imported via ship from another country, then hauled all around the US to various dealerships, advertised for exclusively, etc.

The closest example would be the Mercedes G-500, which stickers out at around $80k new.

 

[Pskhaat]

The designer says that IFS is better overall.

All right, maybe I'm reading that in the context of comparison to live axle.

To redesign the whole thing for one model would, in fact, be much more expensive.

You and I are saying the exact same thing: the whole drivetrain and frame are designed originally on other vehicles to be IFS. My point was that if it was an original design I doubt a full IFS system to be less expensive than SFA.

Do you dispute that an IFS handles on the road better?

To tell you the truth, I don't have an IFS truck. I have however driven my share of 100 series' (towing, off-road, and road) and I can't tell you that I felt it handled one way or the other better. Then again I generally don't take corners at a clip or push an 80 or 100 to very high speeds.

It's not like some engineer thought up the idea recently in response to the needs of rock crawlers. Whether it works better in some situations is another long and overdone debate.

Obviously not overdone because I am not the only complaining and requesting one on this board. We've got dozens of people requesting otherwise. My analog AMPS cell phone is old considered outdated, but I still prefer its connection quality, bandwidth, reliability and coverage to TDMA or CDMA; just because it's an old design doesn't make it outdated IMO.

Now let me talk reality in even if many dozens of people care about a solid vs. independent suspension system, 99% of others do not and I realize Toyota's just a business and they're their to make money; all there is to it. I've got a couple of other threads on this latter topic so I won't rehash that here.

 

[ryanjl]

We aren't arguing the technical aspects of making and selling a SFA in the United States, we're arguing the business aspects.

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

Gumby you're converting to the "Shotts School of Thotts". If you think a FJC (Taco) will be as good a wheeler as a 7X LC.

We've got a live one here folks....

Once again, you "selective reading" types mis-quote me. A 100 won't out wheel an 80. I never said that. It'll hang though 95% of the places. For those last 5% of trails, take an 80 or something smaller and more capable. On the other 95%, the ride experience overall is hands down 100! After I take my 80 out I can't wait to get into the 100. It's so much nicer! Thank god it takes me the 95%!