Full-time 4WD has more rotating mass, therefore worse fuel economy. I think EPA tests part-time 4X4 vehicles in 4H not 2H, which is why you’re seeing similar results for the 4Runners.
Toyota Quoting Only 23 MPG on 250 Series (1 Viewer)
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this is from the same model years. so the epa difference has nothing to do with it.
there is absolutely no way this is true. your telling me a 4runner gets 19-20 mpg driving in the highway in 4wd? and that when in 2wd mode it would do significantly better? I am scared to ask for a source on this cause the other guy got upset when I asked for evidence of a claim I am genuinely curios about.
Oh for goodness sakes. The weight of the two trims is very close. If anything, the Limited trim is a bit heavier than the SR5. It has the same fuel economy rating.
You can postulate whatever you want, but the EPA test is the EPA test. These are two trim lines of the VERY SAME vehicle.
You have no understanding of how a Torsen diff works. It is NOT a clutch-based system which only engages the front driveshaft after the rear axle slips.
The Torsen center diff on the 4Runner Limited trim is the exact same type of diff installed on the 200 and 300 series and 250. It provides power to both driveshafts all the time.
No, it does not.
OK, if you don't like the EPA ratings, lets look at real world data. Fuelly.com has real world data from owners. Fuelly has an IOS app where you enter your gallons and odometer reading at each fuelup and it calculates fuel economy. It stores the data from each fillup, so it maintains historical data.
On Fuelly.com you can select 4Runner and select the particular trim. I've summarized the data for the Limited and SR5 trims for 2018 through 2023:
Now the SR5:
The "weighted" value is the fuel economy rating for that year times the number of vehicles for that year. The weighted average is simply the sum of the weighted values for each year, divided by the total number of vehicles for all years.
So the Limited trim (which is full-time 4WD) fuel economy, based on 105 vehicles, averages 17.7 mpg. The SR5 trim (which is part-time 4WD) fuel economy, based on 111 vehicles, averages 17.1 mpg. Effectively there is no difference.
On Fuelly.com you can select 4Runner and select the particular trim. I've summarized the data for the Limited and SR5 trims for 2018 through 2023:
| 4Runner Limited | |||
| Year | MPG | Number | Weighted |
| 2023 | 17.5 | 15 | 262.5 |
| 2022 | 16.6 | 10 | 166 |
| 2021 | 15.8 | 11 | 173.8 |
| 2020 | 18.8 | 15 | 282 |
| 2019 | 18.1 | 27 | 488.7 |
| 2018 | 17.9 | 27 | 483.3 |
| 105 | 1856.3 | ||
| Weighted average: | 17.68 |
Now the SR5:
| 4Runner SR5 | |||
| Year | MPG | Number | Weighted |
| 2023 | 17.7 | 6 | 106.2 |
| 2022 | 17.3 | 4 | 69.2 |
| 2021 | 17.1 | 20 | 342 |
| 2020 | 16.9 | 11 | 185.9 |
| 2019 | 16.8 | 26 | 436.8 |
| 2018 | 17.3 | 44 | 761.2 |
| 111 | 1901.3 | ||
| Weighted average: | 17.13 |
The "weighted" value is the fuel economy rating for that year times the number of vehicles for that year. The weighted average is simply the sum of the weighted values for each year, divided by the total number of vehicles for all years.
So the Limited trim (which is full-time 4WD) fuel economy, based on 105 vehicles, averages 17.7 mpg. The SR5 trim (which is part-time 4WD) fuel economy, based on 111 vehicles, averages 17.1 mpg. Effectively there is no difference.
coming from my 100 series with around 13mpg I am happy as well.
but if I were coming from a 5th gen 4runner with an extremely reliable v6 engine the slight mpg gain wouldn't be as exciting to me. and if we are in the same pricing category as the sequoia/tundra with only 3mpg less but you get a bigger engine, more tow capacity, bigger vehicle.. I am much less intrigued about the new 250. I just think it is surprising how the 4cyl hybrid as only marginal mpg gains over these other vehicles and if jump to hybrid was actually worth it for this generation
I want to add a bit to my original post that was a bit cheekish...apologies if that offended anyone. It's Friday!
One could argue that the part-time system has really crappy gas mileage compared to the full-time 4wd system (the counter argument being made)!
The limited has a very advanced traction system that demands the higher cost point to get a MPG similar to the part-time system...all about trade-offs.
Go read this:
pressroom.toyota.com
And cross-reference this good explanation:
Directly quoted from the forum with emphasis in bold red at the bottom:
What’s up 4runner fans? After successfully and completely derailing another thread that had nothing to do with the Limited’s Full-Time 4WD system, I figured I’d start a new thread so we can establish the differences in the system for probably the millionth time. I own a limited, and like many others, have wanted to learn more about the Full-time 4wd system. LOTS of mention of full-time AWD, and I get it. I’ve referred to it as such in the past. Wanted to lay down the differences to help eliminate some confusion.
First, let me say I’m not here to discuss which system is better or worse for this or that driving condition. They all have merit.
Second, if you hate the limited, great! Thats fine. Please start your own thread about it. I’m here to talk about and enjoy the differences of our 4runners, not kick you the balls for them. Please avoid kicking mine if you can.
Diving right in: all systems send power to all 4 wheels under normal operating conditions. It’s how they behave when grip is compromised that exposes the distinctions.
AWD, 4WD (part time), and Full-Time 4WD
AWD is a system in which each wheel can gain traction independent of the other wheels and their behavior. All wheels are capable of being driven simultaneously, spinning at different speeds, in all grip conditions. Power is sent through the center diff (often with a rear power bias) to each axle, which both contain limited slip differentials. If traction is lost on both axles, all four wheels will continue to receive power and turn regardless of the condition. No 4runner possesses this system. These are our Audi and Subaru friends.
Part Time 4WD system: When engaged, part-time 4WD system sends power 50:50 (front:rear) to each axle, and simultaneously to all 4 wheels. In the event of a loss in traction, power is sent to the wheel with the least resistance. If you have a loss of traction on each axle, power is sent to the wheel offering the least resistance (on each axle), meaning you're basically stuck. This is due to having open differentials on each axle. All 4WD 5th gen 4runners have open differentials on each axle. Only our 2WD friends get an LSD on the rear axle.
Im pretty sure most of us agree on these two systems and their differences, but if not, please chime in!
Now where things get confusing:
Full-Time 4WD is just like it says on the box. It’s what we have in the Limited. It’s the full-time version of what I’ve just described for our part time friends (specifically open differentials), but with a major distinction: The system employs a 40:60 torque split in most driving situations and alters that in response to slippage. In addition, if the front wheels are slipping while the vehicle is turning, the center differential changes the torque split to 30:70. If the rear wheels slip while the vehicle is turning, the split changes to 53:47. This info is taken directly from Toyota: Toyota 4Runner Celebrates Historic Run with 40th Anniversary Special Edition - Toyota USA Newsroom
*note the section, “4x2 and Two kinds of 4x4.”
In execution, it’s sort of a mix between AWD and part-time 4WD. Power is still delivered to both axles via a center diff, but each axle has open diffs. You have all the benefits of a part-time 4WD system, full-time. The center diff allows for each axle to spin independent of one another and still offers the rear-power bias/adjustments. In a loss of traction, it adjusts dynamically. If there’s a loss of traction on both axles, youre still stuck, just like in a part-time 4wd system. If youre stationary, this is a much bigger problem than if you’re moving, where grip is changing constantly throughout your drive.
One could argue that the part-time system has really crappy gas mileage compared to the full-time 4wd system (the counter argument being made)!
The limited has a very advanced traction system that demands the higher cost point to get a MPG similar to the part-time system...all about trade-offs.
Go read this:
Toyota 4Runner Celebrates Historic Run with 40th Anniversary Special Edition - Toyota USA Newsroom
PLANO, Texas (May 24, 2022) – Forty candles. The “big four-0.” The Toyota 4Runner will reach the 40-year mark with the 2023 model year… and, to celebrate, Toyota is offering a distinctive 4WD-only 2023 4Runner 40th Anniversary Special Edition. Appropriately, Toyota will make 4,040 of these...
And cross-reference this good explanation:
Directly quoted from the forum with emphasis in bold red at the bottom:
What’s up 4runner fans? After successfully and completely derailing another thread that had nothing to do with the Limited’s Full-Time 4WD system, I figured I’d start a new thread so we can establish the differences in the system for probably the millionth time. I own a limited, and like many others, have wanted to learn more about the Full-time 4wd system. LOTS of mention of full-time AWD, and I get it. I’ve referred to it as such in the past. Wanted to lay down the differences to help eliminate some confusion.
First, let me say I’m not here to discuss which system is better or worse for this or that driving condition. They all have merit.
Second, if you hate the limited, great! Thats fine. Please start your own thread about it. I’m here to talk about and enjoy the differences of our 4runners, not kick you the balls for them. Please avoid kicking mine if you can.
Diving right in: all systems send power to all 4 wheels under normal operating conditions. It’s how they behave when grip is compromised that exposes the distinctions.
AWD, 4WD (part time), and Full-Time 4WD
AWD is a system in which each wheel can gain traction independent of the other wheels and their behavior. All wheels are capable of being driven simultaneously, spinning at different speeds, in all grip conditions. Power is sent through the center diff (often with a rear power bias) to each axle, which both contain limited slip differentials. If traction is lost on both axles, all four wheels will continue to receive power and turn regardless of the condition. No 4runner possesses this system. These are our Audi and Subaru friends.
Part Time 4WD system: When engaged, part-time 4WD system sends power 50:50 (front:rear) to each axle, and simultaneously to all 4 wheels. In the event of a loss in traction, power is sent to the wheel with the least resistance. If you have a loss of traction on each axle, power is sent to the wheel offering the least resistance (on each axle), meaning you're basically stuck. This is due to having open differentials on each axle. All 4WD 5th gen 4runners have open differentials on each axle. Only our 2WD friends get an LSD on the rear axle.
Im pretty sure most of us agree on these two systems and their differences, but if not, please chime in!
Now where things get confusing:
Full-Time 4WD is just like it says on the box. It’s what we have in the Limited. It’s the full-time version of what I’ve just described for our part time friends (specifically open differentials), but with a major distinction: The system employs a 40:60 torque split in most driving situations and alters that in response to slippage. In addition, if the front wheels are slipping while the vehicle is turning, the center differential changes the torque split to 30:70. If the rear wheels slip while the vehicle is turning, the split changes to 53:47. This info is taken directly from Toyota: Toyota 4Runner Celebrates Historic Run with 40th Anniversary Special Edition - Toyota USA Newsroom
*note the section, “4x2 and Two kinds of 4x4.”
In execution, it’s sort of a mix between AWD and part-time 4WD. Power is still delivered to both axles via a center diff, but each axle has open diffs. You have all the benefits of a part-time 4WD system, full-time. The center diff allows for each axle to spin independent of one another and still offers the rear-power bias/adjustments. In a loss of traction, it adjusts dynamically. If there’s a loss of traction on both axles, youre still stuck, just like in a part-time 4wd system. If youre stationary, this is a much bigger problem than if you’re moving, where grip is changing constantly throughout your drive.
This time I weighted the fuel economy by the number of fuelups instead of the number of vehicles. The average fuel economy came out essentially unchanged.
| 4Runner Limited | |||
| Year | MPG | Number Fuelups | Weighted |
| 2023 | 17.5 | 422 | 7385 |
| 2022 | 16.6 | 364 | 6042.4 |
| 2021 | 15.8 | 540 | 8532 |
| 2020 | 18.8 | 1120 | 21056 |
| 2019 | 18.1 | 1634 | 29575.4 |
| 2018 | 17.9 | 2933 | 52500.7 |
| 7013 | 125091.5 | ||
| Weighted average: | 17.84 |
| 4Runner SR5 | |||
| Year | MPG | Number Fuelups | Weighted |
| 2023 | 17.7 | 76 | 1345.2 |
| 2022 | 17.3 | 71 | 1228.3 |
| 2021 | 17.1 | 795 | 13594.5 |
| 2020 | 16.9 | 603 | 10190.7 |
| 2019 | 16.8 | 2068 | 34742.4 |
| 2018 | 17.3 | 4100 | 70930 |
| 7713 | 132031.1 | ||
| Weighted average: | 17.12 |
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Dude, settle down..it's just MPG.
The change from 18 to 23 is a 28% improvement. That's substantial.
I test drove the 5th gen 4Runner and hated that drivetrain. I'll be interested to test drive the 250 to see what I think about the new drivetrain.
Dude, READ what I wrote and try to understand it. You keep making illogical rebuttals. Your first rebuttal was effectively "the EPA changes standards so you are comparing apples to oranges" when, in fact, I was comparing two trim levels from the same vehicle from the same mode year, rated with the same EPA standards -- that is the very definition of an "apples to apples" comparison.
Then your next rebuttal included assertions about the Torsen center diff which are simply incorrect.
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First, the EPA comment was made to keep things comparable...there were arguments made using MPG from very different time periods. If you took that as a personal attack...I got nothing.
Second, I'm pretty sure I know how Torsens work..btw, never said it was clutch-based (I was very careful NOT to say that..you added that on your own).
Second, I'm pretty sure I know how Torsens work..btw, never said it was clutch-based (I was very careful NOT to say that..you added that on your own).
Swing and a miss. Nice try, though. This what I wrote and what you quoted:
This was your response:
It IS a fair comparison. Comparing a 5th Gen 4Runner SR5 from the same model year 5th Gen 4Runner Limited is a completely fair comparison, because it is the same vehicle, same model year, rated using the same EPA test procedure. And I provided real world data above that supports my assertion that full-time 4WD on the 4Runner does not get worse fuel economy than the part-time 4WD on the 4Runner.
No, you don't know how Torsen diffs work. You wrote:
No, the full-time 4WD system on the Limited trim 5th Gen 4Runner (and the LC 200, the LC300, and the LC250) does NOT act "as a rear-wheel drive vehicle most of the time". The Torsen center diff is always sending power to the front axle. It doesn't "detect" slip as it doesn't have any electronics to detect slip and then respond. It is a gear-driven system. In normal driving, the Limited trim Torsen sends 40 percent of the torque to the front driveshaft and 60 percent to the rear driveshaft. That is not "acting as a rear-wheel drive vehicle most of the time." That is acting as an AWD vehicle.
The only electronic part of the Torsen is the locking function -- when you lock the Torsen, it locks up and causes the front and rear driveshafts to turn at exactly the same speed. When locked, the Torsen essentially behaves like a part-time system in 4WD.
If we are talking only the Torsen system, yes..it is designed to send power to both front and back with a rear-wheel bias (i.e., acting as a rear-wheel drive vehicle). Yes, I am aware of how the mechanical gears work..I posted a detailed explanation many threads ago.
The bias part was uncertain to me as I have seen implementations from 40/60 to 30/70 depending on brand and model. It's still predominantly rear-wheel driven (biased)! Go back to the post above and Toyota's release.
If you want a super-precise response, I'll be happy to write you a white-paper in triplicate with a TPS coversheet!
The bias part was uncertain to me as I have seen implementations from 40/60 to 30/70 depending on brand and model. It's still predominantly rear-wheel driven (biased)! Go back to the post above and Toyota's release.
If you want a super-precise response, I'll be happy to write you a white-paper in triplicate with a TPS coversheet!
If that's what they are saying now then fine but in the past Toyota did publish a 1 mpg difference between the two. I know it was a thing when I bought my Limited.
How in the world is acting like a rear wheel drive if the front wheels also have drive all the time? I think you are very confused
Regardless the 250 has the same system. So your argument still doesn’t hold up
Neither a 40/60 or 30/70 front to rear split is “acting like a rear-wheel-drive vehicle”. A rear-wheel-drive vehicle is a 0/100 split. 40/60 and 30/70 is an AWD vehicle with a slight to moderate rear wheel bias. Very, very few AWD vehicles have a 50/50 split.
You dug yourself into a hole and you keep on digging.
turbo8
Supporting Vendor
Does the sequoia trd pro really get those number though?
This might be the most autistic thread in the 250 forum thus far. And that’s saying something.
