Toyota igniter vs. aftermarket

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Straight from the horses mouth (Jim C.) concerning the FJ60 dizzy/igniter:


81-87 distributor body was redesigned to use larger cap. The larger cap is less prone to cross arcing inside.
It's also less prone to arcing down the outside in wet conditions. Same dual diaphragm advance introduced in '79.


The 81-87 distributor is a work of art. The shaft spins on sealed ball bearings, the breaker plate advances on a proprietary large ball bearing ring, the weights pivot on Teflon inserts, the distributor is sealed against dirt & water contamination via O-Rings, The cap provides for a source of fresh, clean air when connected correctly.
These late model distributors don't fail. The FJ60 distributors will run a long time. The only problems they develop is a leaky vac advancer and the stop pin bushing ** can wear.
 
Trollhole said:
Hmmm very interesting.
So if one wanted to have the best of the best would be to get an early vacuum advance distributor converted to pertronics and get a coil that doesn't require a ballast resistor. And do away with points, ballast resistor and the stupid igniter? And just carry a set of points just in case? And have the same performance and more reliability as the big cap fully electronic?
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No, the Pertronix is proven to not be as reliable as Nippondenso.
The air-cooled VW community, which has been using Pertronix as long as I can remember, has a convention that one should by 2 pertronix sets. One to drive, and one as a spare for the day the first one fails.

The 81-87 ignition is uber reliable because the electronics are not all packed into the hot, vibrating dissy. The finned aluminum heat sink seems to be of benefit also.

The 81-87 ignitor does have variable dwell (like the newest pertronix) and has self protect to keep from frying itself if the key is left on (like the newest pertronix).

The 74-earlier USA and cheapo non-US dissys are copies of a very inexpensive Delco dissy, w/ all attendant durability issues.

Want a hot spark?: open the plug gap. Just that simple.
 
what aboput the 79-80 units?


BTW, most of the issues with the petronix stem from the " Key on, engine off" problem. That has been addressed buy petronix.

Also, if the petronix fails, you can slap a set of points back in there.

I have had a stock toyota ignition system fail. There is no easy fix without having another stock Toyota ignition handy..
 
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I think the FJ60 distributor/coil/ignitor are the only way to go.

My 76 40 came with a retardo distrubutor with a pertronix in it. It fired right up, but idled weird, and timing light showed scatter. I removed the distibutor and it felt tight. Put it back in, and the ball just bounced. I don't like the small distributors.

Then, I left the key on while rewiring... kind of need to sometimes... and the pertronix burned up. :mad:

I considered replacing it with another, but wanted the newer Ignitor II, which supposedly won't fry itself if you leave the key on.

But, for not much more than the cost of the Ignitor II, I picked up 1 side cover, 2 FJ60 distributors, and 2 coil/ignitors. [In fairness to any beancounters or wives on the board, I will be sending distributors to Jim C., and that will add to the cost, but you don't have to.]

The biggest advantage to the "non-usa" with pertronix is that you can carry a backup set of points and condenser in a package not much bigger than a matchbook...

...but I can swap a distributor and coil/ignitor almost as fast as I can swap points and condenser.

I'll be carrying a spare FJ60 distributor and coil/ignitor when in the boonies, and it will take up much more space (shoebox size), but that's a small price to pay for the huge tradeoff in reliability.

Plus, I will probably never (based on lots of personal experience dunking my FJ60 in deep muddy water) need to mess with my ignition when I'm trying to enjoy my (far too limited) limited time outdoors.
:beer:
 
I'm assuming there is a point at which the stock coil cannot keep up with the bigger gap. Would be interesting to know the spark duration and voltage of the stock coil.

I know it's a tractor motor but doesn't mean it has to act like one. We shave the heads, put headers on it, tweak the carb but the best we can come up with is add the stock ignition off another 2f? That doesn't sound like performance it sounds like improving the reliability.

I always hear about HEI distributors and how they add better performance to a 2f. What makes them perform better than a stock 2f distributor?

If you put a bigger coil with a bigger spark and longer duration alongside the stock igniter would you gain any performance. 50-75 dollars is not a lot if you could squeeze 2 or 3 hp out of the old gal.
 
My caveman-like understanding of it is that, for a given rpm, increasing gap increases the load on the coil.

If we compared a coil to a welder, we might use duty cycle as a unit, and yes, I would bet that there is threshold where a small increase in gap makes a big difference in the demand placed on the coil, but...

...WAY before we get to this point of diminishing returns, a stock FJ60 Nippondenso coil is more than capable of giving as much spark as the combustion cycle needs... for years.

That having been said, if I were bored, and felt like tinkering, I might try to rig the GM HEI ignitor to an Accel HEI coil (the one made for HEI), and trigger it with an FJ60 distributor.

[www.google.com/search?q=gm+hei+ignitor+toyota+mazda]

That way, you could reasonably expect that your trigger (distributor) would not fail, and you could carry a small ignitor that costs $30 - if you WAY overpay. This ignitor is also available just about anywhere that sells auto parts (i.e. available in just about any US city 24 hours a day for peanuts.

EDIT: There is nothing "better" about the HEI distributor. I might buy being able to squeeze more spark out of another coil, but unless you go to a crank-triggered ignition, its not going to be triggered any better than an FJ60 (ok, I have a 2LT that I love too - different story). You could argue that having it all under the HEI cap is an advantage, but I would counter that the FJ60's o-ring sealed, filtered vent cap more than makes up for that.
 
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Trollhole said:
I'm assuming there is a point at which the stock coil cannot keep up with the bigger gap.
Definitely, but it comes after the point where the plugs, wires, cap & rotor are getting burned up in short order.

I know it's a tractor motor but doesn't mean it has to act like one. We shave the heads, put headers on it, tweak the carb but the best we can come up with is add the stock ignition off another 2f? That doesn't sound like performance it sounds like improving the reliability.
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A "performance" spark has 2 characteristics:
1. it lights the fire,
2. it happens at the right time.

I always hear about HEI distributors and how they add better performance to a 2f. What makes them perform better than a stock 2f distributor?
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The same thing that makes a tweaked 2F dissy better.
Spark occurs at the right time.

If you put a bigger coil with a bigger spark and longer duration alongside the stock igniter would you gain any performance. 50-75 dollars is not a lot if you could squeeze 2 or 3 hp out of the old gal.
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Only if the stock ignition was failing. The size of the coil has little effect on spark power. Spark power is directly related to resistance in the secondary circuit. If the desired goal is higher spark power, the easiest way to achieve that is increase the plug gap. However, there is no improvement in engine power, opening the gap from .035 to .050. There will be an increase in wear on all ignition components and increased amp draw and increase arcing to ground when immersed.
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If everything else is in good shape, and tuned right, I doubt you would be able to measure ANY difference in hp or torque due to spark plug gap without spending lots of time (money).

I also doubt that there's an easy way to test this, but... it seems like the extra gap would help more (compensate) on an engine that's not tuned right.

If you twist the distributor, in either direction, until it will barely run, I would bet that more gap would make it run better. It still shouldn't run as well as a properly timed engine with a smaller gap... can't say I'd pay to find out with dyno time, but if you have a curious operator, or more disposable income than you know what to do with it, please share the results.

:beer:
 
That my friend, would be the ticket to settling the argument once and for all!

Ideally you would make a run with the stock ignition system and a stock plug gap, then increase the plug gap and make another run. Repeat with the FJ60 ignition. Then maybe a HEI system. Go for it!
:steer:
 
Trollhole said:
If you put a bigger coil with a bigger spark and longer duration alongside the stock igniter would you gain any performance. 50-75 dollars is not a lot if you could squeeze 2 or 3 hp out of the old gal.
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No. Not in my experience.

I used to spend a lot of money drag racing in my youth and 0.05 second in the quarter mile was the difference between winning and losing. Ignitions (high voltage, high performance, super duper big azz spark etc.) have virtually no difference in performance up until about 7,500 RPM where the stock ignition doesn't make a spark reliably.

In particular, having a high performance ignition on a low performance engine has no effect. As long as it sparks, it is all the same. If you have a high performance (supercharged, high RPM) you need a high performance ignition to keep up. Otherwise it is like putting lipstick on a mule. (But then again, your mule has a lot of bling on its badonkadonk).
 
3doghouse said:
If everything else is in good shape, and tuned right, I doubt you would be able to measure ANY difference in hp or torque due to spark plug gap without spending lots of time (money).

I also doubt that there's an easy way to test this, but... it seems like the extra gap would help more (compensate) on an engine that's not tuned right.
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Ding!
You are correct sir. The gianormous plug gaps and extended electrodes seen on some new cars are to allow the spark to find some fuel to burn in a very lean cylinder. OTOH, if RPM is low, mixture is correct and cylinder pressure is low, the engine could be lit by tossing a smoldering match in the carb.

The occasional lean burning is also the reason for the performance robbing multiple electrode plugs. The small loss of performance is made up for by having enough electrode that the plug will last 60K miles, even in an "oxygen rich" (lean mixture) chamber.
 
Yes, that is a good old thread!

A couple of thoughts:

  • Sure would be nice to see the stock FJ60 trace for comparison!
  • I'm still willing to carry my shoebox-sized factory electronic ignition spares in the boonies rather than matchbox-sized points and condenser (or Pertronix)... but I do want to test the HEI ignitor for a possible beer can-sized backup solution.
 
Moral of the story, solid state is better than points.:) So a HEI setup is a better option than points if you had to choose between the two. But I would rather use a 79 or newer solid state ignition from a fj40 or fj60. Nice Thread.
 
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