Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser (6 Viewers)

[linuxgod]

BTW legal limit in Australia looks like it's 350kg/770#, with an option to upgrade to 400kg/880# with the Lovell's GVM upgrade (along with higher total GVM and axle rating too)

Landcruiser 200 – 4000kg Towing Upgrade & GCM 7800kg | BAM Garage

» Landcruiser 200 – 4000kg Towing Upgrade & GCM 7800kg | New vehicle servicing | Fleet and private maintainence | 4×4 accessories

www.bamgarage.com

 

[Dan Higgins]

That Australian number is interesting. I see a lot of non-US vehicle manufactures using towing limits of 7700 lbs (which seems to fit square with a 770# tongue weight.) There must be something about that number. I think I read on a forum somewhere that the 7700 number.

It may have something to do with this (source Wikipedia)

"A standard car driving licence issued by an EU country (i.e. class B) limits the licence-holder to driving vehicles with a "maximum authorised mass" (i.e. GVWR)[8] of 3,500 kg (7,700 lb). This includes holders of UK class B driving licences who passed their driving tests on or after 1 January 1997."

 

[Dan Higgins]

If you haven't had enough talk of tow ratings to gag on, here are a couple of articles on the SAE J2807 standards.

SAE J2807 Tow Tests - The Standard - Truck Trendwww.trucktrend.com › how-to › towing › 1502-sae-j28...

What Is SAE J2807? What Does It Really Mean For Your ...jalopnik.com › what-is-sae-j2807-what-does-it-mean-fo...

 

[azstreamer]

I think literature numbers usually written by the marketing folks are not always based upon reality. There are quite a few trailers where 15% tongue weight is necessary for stability. The reference material captioned above is trying to make a very important point that is not prominently displayed in any of the owners manuals. A hitch design parameters, limitations or limits are required to be displayed on the receiver and have been visible on all trucks and after market hitches I have seen. An obscure marketing brochure is not a safety notice. If this were a real number that is important to Toyota, it should at least be on a placard on the vehicle or in the owners manual.

When Toyota suppled me with a Group IV hitch drop with the limits of a 9,000 pound trailer and 900 pound tongue weight inscribed thereon, that set the stage for a 900 pound tongue weight being okay even if we limit the trailer to 8,100 pounds.

We are not exceeding any of the hard numbers such as the axle ratings which controls the true total gross weight of the vehicle, or trailer weight sine we scale 6,069 pounds out of the 8,100 allowed. Subtracting the total axle weights from the GCVW (14,400 - 7,895 = 6.505) shows the maximum trailer weight allowed if the car is loaded to the gills. If you use the GVW of 7,385, then the trailer could weigh 7,015 pounds with a fully loaded car. The reality of a weight diasgtribution hitch with our numbers is I expect about 200 pounds of the 900 will be pushed forward to the steering wheels and 200 to 300 will be pushed back to the trailer wheels leaving between 500 and 600 pound apparent weight at the receiver.

I expect our hitched rig to be over a 1,000 pounds below the GCVW of 14,400 pounds.

Strangely enough, the stock tires have a load capacity of 2,750 pounds st 51 psi which with two tires generates a 5,500 pound load capacity for a 4,300 pound rear axle rating. That is about a 28% load safety margin for the rear axle and even higher (48%) on the lower rated front axle, I expect towing will be less than 25% of the use of the vehicle over the years.

For us, a major challenge is the bottom of the opening for a stinger is at about 20.25" off of the ground on the Land Cruiser, The bottom edge of the trailer hitch opening is about 13" so we will need a 7" drop.

 

[TeCKis300]

For us, a major challenge is the bottom of the opening for a stinger is at about 20.25" off of the ground on the Land Cruiser, The bottom edge of the trailer hitch opening is about 13" so we will need a 7" drop.

My preferred solution was to lift the Airstream. 2 7/8" Dexter axle lift blocks combined with a .6" larger diameter tire (225/75/15 to 235/75/15), for net lift trailer lift a bit over 3".

It's made a world of difference in clearance for my trailer and opens up camping in places that would outright not be possible. It's also nice to have somewhat more matching capability to the tow vehicle for boondocking options with less disparity in height and clearance. I've always hated how low WD hitches can hang limiting departure angle.

 

[azstreamer]

We already did a lift of sorts with the 2015 23D by going from the stock 14" tires and wheels to 15" SenDel wheels and 15" Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 X tires like I used on the 25FB. The trailer was raised 1,1 inches to the same elevation as our 2013 25FB. At this point, 16" tires are not an option as they would be too stiff and we already "doctored" the curb side wheel well leading edge to the edge of the plastic wheel well.

We have a 2" drop Hensley stinger to allow the 2012 Ram to tow the 23D. Hensley sends out welded drop or rise stingers only in 2" increments which means for the Land Cruiser we would be either and inch above or below the trailer opening for the Hensley head. The "burn a hole" in the wallet option is to retire the 2012 Hensley Arrow and get a ProPride for the 23D too as we have one on our Classic. That would require a second PPP stinger adjusted for the Ram as well as one for the Land Cruiser. The PPP has the adjustable increment head now for the stinger (they were not avauialbe when we initially bought the PPP in late 2014). The new PPP heads also allow setting an angle to preload the lift arms.

Going the PPP route would allow the 23D to stay where it is for now and be elevated at a later date. Storing the PPP head when camping could be a challenge. Because we mounted Rock Tamers to the Ram PPP hitch head, it is basically staying on the truck all the time. I have a storage cradle for the PPP head at the garage when not towing.

Regardless of the hitch system we end up with, I believe some suspension help will be necessary for the Land Cruiser. I modified the Ram when brand new with a level ride all air bag system that automatically compensates for tongue weight.

 

[linuxgod]

IThe reality of a weight diasgtribution hitch with our numbers is I expect about 200 pounds of the 900 will be pushed forward to the steering wheels and 200 to 300 will be pushed back to the trailer wheels leaving between 500 and 600 pound apparent weight at the receiver.

That may not be true.

Last time I did a CAT scale with and without the trailer attached I actually found that despite using WD with 1000# bars cranked to the max, I still ended up removing 200# from the front axle when hitched up

	Toyota spec'ed limits	Unhitched	Hitched with trailer & WD
Front axle	3595	3700	3500
Rear axle	4300	3840	4960
Truck weight	7385 (500# less than F+R)	7540	8460
Trailer axles	~5800 (Lance)	0	5140
Total trailer weight (GCWR#2 - GCWR#1)	6000 (Lance)	0	6060
GCWR	14,400	7540	13,500

I didn't weigh my tongue this time or weigh the rig without the WD bars, but I'm guessing my effective TW was ~920# (4960 - 3840 - (3700-3500) ). I'm not sure what the dead weight would be though since that TW includes the weight of the WD hitch itself, but then subtracts the WD hitch impact.

My point is, you might recover 200# via WD but putting a ton of weight on the hitch means you may still find your front axle is lighter than it was before hitching up.

 

[Dan Higgins]

Hey, @azstreamer reference to tire pressure/load limits brings up a question I have for you all. Though I normally run with E-rated tires I currently have the snow tires on. They are Nokian Hakkapalitas at 285/60R18 116R. We would like to take our trailer 3 hours away from here (over the mountains to Eugene) and I would prefer to leave the snow tires on. The weight of our Land Cruiser w/o the trailer typically runs ~6700 lbs with my wife and I on board. Our tongue weight is ~750 for our trailer. What PSI should I use for those tires and are there any cautions against using those tires. (I do realize that they reduce the height of the LC about a half inch compared to what I normally run but it is a short trip so I'm not worried if the trailer is a tiny bit lower in the front.)

 

[LCHardriver_02]

Dan - Looking at the tires specs, it looks like they have a load index 116 rating, which would be 2756 lbs per tire. As long as you don't exceed that (x2) on a given axle, you should be good. Regarding the pressure, I'd load it up and see how your tread hits the pavement and adjust accordingly... yeah, not scientific but should give you what you need to go those 3 hours.

 

[TeCKis300]

Hey, @azstreamer reference to tire pressure/load limits brings up a question I have for you all. Though I normally run with E-rated tires I currently have the snow tires on. They are Nokian Hakkapalitas at 285/60R18 116R. We would like to take our trailer 3 hours away from here (over the mountains to Eugene) and I would prefer to leave the snow tires on. The weight of our Land Cruiser w/o the trailer typically runs ~6700 lbs with my wife and I on board. Our tongue weight is ~750 for our trailer. What PSI should I use for those tires and are there any cautions against using those tires. (I do realize that they reduce the height of the LC about a half inch compared to what I normally run but it is a short trip so I'm not worried if the trailer is a tiny bit lower in the front.)

This is a niche tire that doesn't quite match the standard inflation tables (it actually has a higher standard load index for this size (116 vs 114 typical). I believe you'll be able to do what you want.

To @LCHardriver_02 point, and confirmed by Nokian's website (funny even the 285/60R18 size doesn't show up on their tables), its max load capability is 2760lbs which is just fine for the task. The max load is going to be correlated with the tires max inflation pressure. I couldn't find it explicitly, though should be stamped on the sidewall. Cross referencing tables shows that should be about 35-36 PSI.

35PSI will give you some margin and you should be safe. Depending on your trailer, 33 PSI is likely fine too.

 

[Dan Higgins]

Thanks to both of you, @LCHardriver_02 and @TeCKis300! Next year I plan to switch to Nokian's 275/70R18 E rated LT snow tires. So I'm looking to run the current ones a bit longer - bet a bit more mileage out of them. They aren't new but they also aren't in bad shape. (I also plan to eventually switch my non-snow tires to the same size at some point).

 

[azstreamer]

Rule of thumb for trailer tires is to replace every five years whether it went 50,000 miles or five miles. Time is not good for tires, especially out in the Southwest in the summer heat.

Dan may need to add some pressure to the rear tires to stiffen the sidewalls when towing.

 

[linuxgod]

Rule of thumb for trailer tires is to replace every five years whether it went 50,000 miles or five miles. Time is not good for tires, especially out in the Southwest in the summer heat.

Dan may need to add some pressure to the rear tires to stiffen the sidewalls when towing.

I think the NHTSA recommendation is 7 years from the date of manufacture. I'm with you on early replacement though.

Biggest thing with trailer tires is safety factor for weight and speed. Until recently most ST tires were limited to 65 mph, for instance, and most were only load C. I replaced mine when I got the trailer even though they were only 4 years old and hardly used with load D-rated ST tires with a max speed of 81 MPH, since I routinely drive 70-75

 

[TeCKis300]

I'm glad to see the new breed of higher quality and higher speed threshold trailer tires. There were a dearth of options not too long ago, with far too many cases of exploding Goodyear Marathon tires. The new Endurance line seems to finally be on par.

Fire suit on but I'm actually running passenger XL rated tires on my trailer at the moment.

 

[linuxgod]

I'm glad to see the new breed of higher quality and higher speed threshold trailer tires. There were a dearth of options not too long ago, with far too many cases of exploding Goodyear Marathon tires. The new Endurance line seems to finally be on par.

Fire suit on but I'm actually running passenger XL rated tires on my trailer at the moment.

Yeah, I started with some "Gold Star" or some such Chinese brand on the last trailer when I went looking for M speed rated. Those held up well (anecdotally), actually better than the name brand one that I shredded on I-57.

I considered LT tires but you can't find them in 14" anymore. I didn't want to try passenger tires as the sidewalls aren't as stiff and I've read that they can run into sway issues sometimes.
I run these now:

Amazon product ASIN B01LWRU8D8

 

[TeCKis300]

I'm reminded that towing shouldn't be taken lightly. While we like to push limits here, articulated vehicles can inherently be unstable. Setup, speed, and conditions should be given ample consideration.

Crazy story in the news with an F350 towing a 30ft travel trailer, losing control, and ultimately hanging off the side of a bridge by a single chain. Likely causal factors: speed, load mismanagement (excess load hung off rear of trailer on a hitch rack), and wind.

Trailer Safety Chain Stops Dangling Ford Super Duty From Plummeting Into Gorge

Always double-check your chains.

www.thedrive.com

 

[azstreamer]

We run Michelin tires on both the 23D International Serenity and the 2014 31' Classic. I use Michelin 235/75/R15 XL 109T Defender tires with a rating of 2291 pounds sidewall rating @ 42 PSI and for trailer use must be derated 10% to 2,044 pounds, I have the individual tire loads from my own scales and the street side rear has the most load at 1,376 pounds. I have the Michelin Agilis LT225/75R16/E 115/112R tires on the Classic and would have to run at 90 psi for full load E of 2,680,pounds. The prior generation had Load E at 80 psi. We use 80 psi as that is about a 20% safety load factor. The heaviest tire load on the Classic is curb side rear at 2,062 pounds.

 

[azstreamer]

Bet they had to extract seat cushion material out ot that driver's backside.....

 

[Dan Higgins]

Our current trailer is only 1 year old so tires are good. The size is ST205/75R15 but I don't remember the rating. We had our prior trailer for 4 years before selling it and the new owner replaced the tires just to be safe. As you can see from my very conservative beliefs on tongue weight and the use of a ProPride hitch for a mere 5700 GVWR, 23' travel trailer I prefer to be cautious - when I am aware of things. But not being mechanically or hardware engineering minded (I was a software guy) I always have this nagging fear of the things I don't yet know about.

As for that incident with the truck/trailer I do see a lot of people towing trailers as though they were driving without the trailer. The bigger the truck, the more I see it. Having a well balanced hitching system and a more than adequate tow vehicle can leave you to forget the trailer is back there. Not good when that happens. It is great until it isn't.

 

[azstreamer]

The free fall from 10,000 feet does not hurt until the last 10 inches..... Everything was just fine until it suddenly wasn't....

My 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI diesel was a smaller vehicle that the Land Cruiser. We plan to carry the same stuff we carried in the ML. The trailer will be upgraded from the Hensley Arrow hitch to a new ProPriide that has more precise adjustability, new 3,600 pound axles with disc brakes (possibly also ABS) and new six lug 15" SenDel wheels to replace the five lug 15" SenDel wheels but still using the existing new last summer 15"Michelin 235/75/R15 XL 109T Defender tires, a new thermostat and television.

The trailer mods will allow us to take it with us in the Land Cruise off the beaten path and do short three to five day remote area camping.