Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser (6 Viewers)

[duncancsu]

Does anybody have experience with installing an upgraded Valve Body or lockup kit. I know the lockup kit is not popular in the US but I’m trying to get some real life examples on either. Thanks for the replies

 

[azstreamer]

Since most 8,100 pound trailers will have a real world tongue weight north of 1,000 pounds when a Hensley Arrow or ProPride weight distribution is installed, how is the receiver "reinforced" or the suspension given slightly more capacity?

Reading the link above about auxiliary gasoline tanks, the 12.5 gallon version allows for the spare, but the larger capacity tanks requires displacement of the spare. I wonder where the displaced spare is carried?

I expect our 2021 white with brown interior LC to show up in April so am reading to get up to speed on the joys and tribulations of LC ownership.

 

[linuxgod]

Since most 8,100 pound trailers will have a real world tongue weight north of 1,000 pounds when a Hensley Arrow or ProPride weight distribution is installed, how is the receiver "reinforced" or the suspension given slightly more capacity?

Reading the link above about auxiliary gasoline tanks, the 12.5 gallon version allows for the spare, but the larger capacity tanks requires displacement of the spare. I wonder where the displaced spare is carried?

I expect our 2021 white with brown interior LC to show up in April so am reading to get up to speed on the joys and tribulations of LC ownership.

With larger aux tanks, the spare must be relocated to an aftermarket swing-out rear bumper

A class 3 hitch should be rated at a minimum of 1000#. Toyota rates at 850#, presumably because of axle, suspension, and handling and not because the "mounting" can't handle it (as our receiver is part of the frame). No reinforcement should be necessary here.

The stock rear springs compress at 1" per 170#. If you upgrade the rear springs to a stiffer spring (e.g. 340#/in), your vehicle will be able to handle the additional weight as the rear will sag less and when turning/maneuvering it will lean and wallow less. Note this is only a general statement, as in most cases I don't believe heavier springs actually claim to change the GVWR of a vehicle. (There are Australian GVM upgrades which legally do this in Australia, though they still don't legally change GVWR in the USA). Also stiffer springs do nothing to change wheel, tire, axle, bearing, and other aspects.

You will find people on this forum who significantly overload past GVWR and run trailers which are outside the Toyota weight ratings (myself included at times). Not saying you can't do it (or that I don't), but be warned at the very least you risk voiding parts of your warranty if Toyota found out. Also if you've never owned a trailer of that size, starting off outside the prescribed limits is probably not a great idea. I suggest looking for a trailer which has a lighter TW, particularly since once you fully load your trailer the TW will likely be even higher (unless you're putting a LOT of weight behind the trailer axle to compensate)

 

[TeCKis300]

About to pull trigger on a new 2021 LC. Trailer is a 2015 Airstream 23D (narrow body) that scales 6,069 pounds with a 969

About to pull trigger on a 2021 LC. Trailer we will pull is a 2015 Airstream 23D (narrow body) that scales 6,063 pounds camping ready and has a 928 pound tongue weight. We use a Hensley Arrow weight distribution hitch, Prior tow vehicle was a 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI turbo diesel that was wonderful. Impending third major engine expense reoccurrence at 205,000 miles was the end of the Mercedes for us. Still have the big Ram 2500HD Cummins towing the 31' Classic and as well as the 23D. So thus the interest in a smaller tow vehicle that will last.

From reading about ten pages of this read, I see the LC should handle this with aplomb. But I wonder if it will do so stock? We towed the 23D at 55 mph with the Mercedes as that was the sweet spot for the engine. We are not in a rush!

Since most 8,100 pound trailers will have a real world tongue weight north of 1,000 pounds when a Hensley Arrow or ProPride weight distribution is installed, how is the receiver "reinforced" or the suspension given slightly more capacity?

Reading the link above about auxiliary gasoline tanks, the 12.5 gallon version allows for the spare, but the larger capacity tanks requires displacement of the spare. I wonder where the displaced spare is carried?

I expect our 2021 white with brown interior LC to show up in April so am reading to get up to speed on the joys and tribulations of LC ownership.

If you setup the vehicle correctly, the 23D will not be a problem. I towed a 23D with my 100-series LX470 and it towed stable and well, albeit a bit underpowered. I tow a 27FB with my current 200-series LX570, and I couldn't be happier with the overall setup and performance. So while I do recommended heeding the caution of others, take it as advice to pay attention to setup, because it can be done and the 23D is well within the wheelhouse of the 200-series. You're obviously not new to this towing game which gives you a giant leg up in that respect, just learning the platform.

If you're using a Hensley Arrow, that's already the cream of the crop for hitches. Make sure to keep the hitch as close and tight to the rear bumper as possible as that will maximize WD and reduce porpoising with less tension.

For suspension, many have upgraded rear springs when towing heavy. I think airbags are also a great solution to maintain ride comfort when not towing. Yes, regulatory wise it doesn't increase GVWR, but the reality is that does help manage larger weights as it increases effective spring rate for enhanced stability. It is important to calibrate WD tension after setting airbag pressure, as doing it in reverse (when dialing in everything for the first time) will effectively negate WD transfer of weight to the forward axle.

3-5 more PSI in the rear tires can also help stability.

As for aux tank, I have a 12.5 gallon (look for link in my sig), to enhance towing range. Spare goes under as it always has. I would avoid the larger aux tank options as that has impacts to the weight calculus along with displacing the spare which causes further weight increases in rear bumpers/swingouts.

 

[duncancsu]

With larger aux tanks, the spare must be relocated to an aftermarket swing-out rear bumper

A class 3 hitch should be rated at a minimum of 1000#. Toyota rates at 850#, presumably because of axle, suspension, and handling and not because the "mounting" can't handle it (as our receiver is part of the frame). No reinforcement should be necessary here.

The stock rear springs compress at 1" per 170#. If you upgrade the rear springs to a stiffer spring (e.g. 340#/in), your vehicle will be able to handle the additional weight as the rear will sag less and when turning/maneuvering it will lean and wallow less. Note this is only a general statement, as in most cases I don't believe heavier springs actually claim to change the GVWR of a vehicle. (There are Australian GVM upgrades which legally do this in Australia, though they still don't legally change GVWR in the USA). Also stiffer springs do nothing to change wheel, tire, axle, bearing, and other aspects.

You will find people on this forum who significantly overload past GVWR and run trailers which are outside the Toyota weight ratings (myself included at times). Not saying you can't do it (or that I don't), but be warned at the very least you risk voiding parts of your warranty if Toyota found out. Also if you've never owned a trailer of that size, starting off outside the prescribed limits is probably not a great idea. I suggest looking for a trailer which has a lighter TW, particularly since once you fully load your trailer the TW will likely be even higher (unless you're putting a LOT of weight behind the trailer axle to compensate)

Do you know if you can add just the rear springs without having to upgrade or change the entire shock strut setup or lift the vehicle. I’ m looking to see if there is a coil that installs and plays well with the OEM suspension but offers a bit more lbs/ inch.

 

[linuxgod]

If you setup the vehicle correctly, the 23D will not be a problem. I towed a 23D with my 100-series LX470 and it towed stable and well, albeit a bit underpowered. I tow a 27FB with my current 200-series LX570, and I couldn't be happier with the overall setup and performance. So while I do recommended heeding the caution of others, take it as advice to pay attention to setup, because it can be done and the 23D is well within the wheelhouse of the 200-series. You're obviously not new to this towing game which gives you a giant leg up in that respect, just learning the platform.

I dunno man, my first trailer was about 600# TW and on the LC with stock springs I had a lot of rear end squat - a good 3" even after the WD hitch. Airbags helped recover some of that but not really enough.

The LX with AHC may be different, but if you're towing above rated TW with an LC, IMO you really need to look at upgraded springs. That's going to be even more true if you're adding an aux tank or putting other stuff in the trunk (gear, drawers, coolers, or people) which will sit over or behind the rear axle. Ultimately you need to spec to be able to handle an emergency maneuver or other non-ideal situation. You might be able to drive with 1000# on the hitch and a yeti full of ice and beer, but what's going to happen when you have to brake hard and swerve because some idiot cuts you off on the highway?

I will say that I have 240# rear springs, shocks I can stiffen up, air bags, and a BlueOx 1000# WD hitch, and with my trailer TW at about 900# when I'm fully loaded I've seriously considered swapping my coils to the 270/340# progressives, if not going heavier. I can definitely feel the weight and associated forces on winding roads as well as those which "roll" a bit (not totally flat) and get the entire mass floating.

 

[linuxgod]

Do you know if you can add just the rear springs without having to upgrade or change the entire shock strut setup or lift the vehicle. I’ m looking to see if there is a coil that installs and plays well with the OEM suspension but offers a bit more lbs/ inch.

Lovell's makes a GVM upgrade, which is stock height but stiffer springs. Getting Lovell's GVM parts in the US takes a bit of patience I think

I asked them about their spring rates at one point and they are basically equivalent to the OME 340# rear and their heavy front spring option. I can't recall if OME has a ~340# rear coil option with no lift though someone else probably does. I'd try to look for the OME progressive (270/340) so the unhitched vehicle ride isn't too bumpy.

Different springs will work with your OEM shocks, though they are not tuned for them so I don't know how that will impact their dampening.

 

[TeCKis300]

I dunno man, my first trailer was about 600# TW and on the LC with stock springs I had a lot of rear end squat - a good 3" even after the WD hitch. Airbags helped recover some of that but not really enough.

The LX with AHC may be different, but if you're towing above rated TW with an LC, IMO you really need to look at upgraded springs. That's going to be even more true if you're adding an aux tank or putting other stuff in the trunk (gear, drawers, coolers, or people) which will sit over or behind the rear axle. Ultimately you need to spec to be able to handle an emergency maneuver or other non-ideal situation. You might be able to drive with 1000# on the hitch and a yeti full of ice and beer, but what's going to happen when you have to brake hard and swerve because some idiot cuts you off on the highway?

I will say that I have 240# rear springs, shocks I can stiffen up, air bags, and a BlueOx 1000# WD hitch, and with my trailer TW at about 900# when I'm fully loaded I've seriously considered swapping my coils to the 270/340# progressives, if not going heavier. I can definitely feel the weight and associated forces on winding roads as well as those which "roll" a bit (not totally flat) and get the entire mass floating.

I know the 23D pretty well and I strongly believe it's within the capability of the LC. Although I tow with an LX, I am looking at this through the lens of an LC owner, along with example successes that owners have had in this very thread. I'm pretty active on the Airstream forums, and plenty have towed more trailer with less vehicle (on stock suspension) than the LC, including @azstreamer 's ML320. That's the basis of why I believe this can be done.

Contrary to popular belief, it is correct WD setup that enables heavy towing. Not so much rear spring rate, though that can help. There are circles that would argue strongly to any added spring or airbags, and have proven to tow heavy on good WD hitches with matching proper tension and setup. Also contrary to popular belief, tongue weight is not the primary enemy as it can actually enable more stable towing. It's primarily improper WD setup, trailer weight distribution, and speed.

Then there are minor things that have more impact than common understanding. Hitch projection beyond rear bumper. Trying to reduce tongue weight by moving weight to the tail of the trailer. Not enough WD tension. Not enough trailer brake bias. Then there are mods we do for off-road capability, that are sometimes diametric to good tow vehicle qualities - small wheels with large sidewall, additional armor, gadgets, and weights that take away from effective payload - requiring more spring rate. Everything either adds stability or takes away so it's necessary to turn enough dials to help towing performance, otherwise, towing capability can surely be compromised.

 

[ColoradoSequoia]

I tow a ~6000 lb trailer with my 200. Stock it towed fine but I upgraded springs and shocks (Dobinsons) and it tows much better now. Stability is very decent especially for a non Heavy Duty truck. I get NO sway - ever.

My only real complaint is gas mileage which is made worse by 275/70R18 E rated KO2s.

 

[duncancsu]

I tow a ~6000 lb trailer with my 200. Stock it towed fine but I upgraded springs and shocks (Dobinsons) and it tows much better now. Stability is very decent especially for a non Heavy Duty truck. I get NO sway - ever.

My only real complaint is gas mileage which is made worse by 275/70R18 E rated KO2s.

Do mind me asking what did the shocks and springs set you back?

 

[ColoradoSequoia]

Sure. About $1,100. Here is the order. I’ll post before/after pics soon. I’ve been happy with it. The Tough Dog adjustable kit is also an option that others like a lot. I also added Timbrens. @crickeymike is great to work with on the Dobinsons.

 

[linuxgod]

Speaking from experience, if you're going to tow a heavy trailer, the Tough Dog 45mm adjustables are a good value option. Jason @TRAIL TAILOR sells them. Otherwise you're potentially asking a lot of your suspension to be comfortable and stable across a huge variation in vehicle loads. (Note that the adjustable shocks don't make up for under-rated springs, but they do help you maximize comfort and handling, when you build for the mid-point of weight but might run very low or very high at times).

I'm sure properly tuned remote reservoir bypass shocks like King or BP51 will give you the same range of comfort without ever needing to manually adjust based on your load or terrain, but TD is like 1.5x the cost of OME/Dobinsons basic kits whereas King/BP51 are 3x.

 

[ColoradoSequoia]

Stock suspension w/ WDH hitch

With Dobinsons setup and WDH - tongue weight is about 925# with camper water tanks mostly full

 

[ColoradoSequoia]

Speaking from experience, if you're going to tow a heavy trailer, the Tough Dog 45mm adjustables are a good value option. Jason @TRAIL TAILOR sells them. Otherwise you're potentially asking a lot of your suspension to be comfortable and stable across a huge variation in vehicle loads. (Note that the adjustable shocks don't make up for under-rated springs, but they do help you maximize comfort and handling, when you build for the mid-point of weight but might run very low or very high at times).

I'm sure properly tuned remote reservoir bypass shocks like King or BP51 will give you the same range of comfort without ever needing to manually adjust based on your load or terrain, but TD is like 1.5x the cost of OME/Dobinsons basic kits whereas King/BP51 are 3x.

I may try the TDs in the rear at some point - I'm curious about the adjustability. The Dobinsons are a little firm (I tend to prefer softer suspension), but I also believe this is due to the E rated tires more than the shocks.

 

[linuxgod]

The TDs are just a little knob at the bottom you turn. It has detents to allow you to set compression from 0 (float like a caddy) to 9 (mike tyson just punched you the teeth). Takes <60 seconds to adjust both, though you have to lay on the ground for a moment to reach them. Mine are set on 4 during normal driving and 6 when towing.

My experience is similar to the pics @ColoradoSequoia posted above - much less sag with the stiffer springs, airbags inflated, and WD hitch dialed in. Best comparison photos I have below:

No lift, unladen (left) vs loaded (right) with ~600# TW ,"light" duty WD hitch and 35psi in the firestone air bags. Definite sag in the rear

Current 2" TD lift only (left) vs loaded (right) ~900# TW, 30psi in the air bags:

Ultimately when loaded I'm between perfectly level and about 1/2" taller in front, depending on the trailer loading.

 

[azstreamer]

We reused the Hensley Arrow hitch system that was initially put onto a 2013 Airstream 25FB International Serenity. The 25FB was brand new and empty when towed home from Los Angles with the 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI. After loading the 25FB for camping, the Mercedes was not happy, so I acquired one of the last new 2012 Ram 2500HD Cummins that was pre-def. We traded the 25FB for our current 2014 31' Classic and used the second generation Jim Hensley design called the ProPride. I kept the Hensley from the 25FB and when we added the 2015 23D International Serenity we reused the Hensley. We upgraded the stock 23D International Serenity 14" tires and wheels to 15" SenDel wheels and 15" Michelin P series tires that brought the 23D to the same elevation as the 25FB that also had the same size 15" Michelin tires. We reused the 25FB setting on the 23D setup for the Mercedes. That was a rock solid setup that drove like it was on rails. We saw 16 mpg when towing at 55 mph. We see 11.5 to 12.5 mpg when towing the 31' Classic as the rig scales at 19,200 pounds.

In the for what its worth department, the legal GVW per DOT is the sum of the axle ratings, not the door sticker. The two or four tires by law must have equal or greater load capacity than the axles. The rear axle on my Ram is rated 6,000 pounds and the two 17" stock sized LT265/70R17E Michelin tires are rated 6,010 pounds. The LC axle ratings are 3,595 pounds front and 4,300 pounds rear for a total axle load capacity of 7,895 pounds which is 500 pounds more than the GVW door sticker of 7,385 pounds. I checked yesterday and the stock replacement size tires (285/609R18/XL 120H at $234 each) are unavailable in the Michelin inventory in the Southwest. The Michelin LT 275/65R18 E tires are the same diameter at $255 each and are raadily available everywhere.

Once the LC arrives, I will start the setup design of the new Hensley stinger as they only build drops in 2" increments (2" square steel bar to build increments), I may get the Hensley straight stinger and have a local welding shop build the exact drop needed for the LC. The drop for the Ram to tow the 23D with a custom receiver is 2" (bottom of receiver opening is 15"). The LC opening bottom is 20.25" so I will need a total drop of 7" to have the same unloaded elevation of stinger going into the trailer.

I have two sets of four scales for weighing vehicles I use to make adjustments and check out loading front to back and side to side as well as when adjusting weight distribution.

I hope to be able to trim four to five inches off of the part of the stock Hensley stinger that goes into the LC receiver to bring the trailer closer to the LC. Closeness is determined by the distance of the tail gate extension when down and not hitting the propane tanks cover.

My handle is Switz on AirForums.

 

[linuxgod]

In the for what its worth department, the legal GVW per DOT is the sum of the axle ratings, not the door sticker.

I'm curious where you found that. I've searched for ages and all of the DOT, FMCAA, etc rules I've found are only for commercial transport.

Exemptions to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations (FMCSR) | FMCSA

This fact sheet is intended to provide user-friendly information regarding FMCSA regulations. This information does not modify or replace applicable regulations and is not legally binding in its own right.

www.fmcsa.dot.gov

"CDL regulations do not apply to transportation of personal property when the vehicle is used strictly for non-business purposes unless a CDL is required by the driver’s home state."

It does seem like different states have different rules as well. Most exempt non-commercial use but then some require anyone over 10k GCWR to stop. I was driving through Iowa or Nebraska once and their automated sign system told me I had to pull off and get weighed. Despite being over GVWR (though slightly under GCWR) I rolled right through with a green light. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There's a fun read about whether RVs can be fined, impounded, etc for being overweight, with both non-commercial drivers and some commercial drivers as well as state police chiming in. tl;dr - For non-commercial use you could probably pull whatever you want and the worst case scenario would be a small fine, though there could be civil liability if someone wanted to sue you in the event of an accident (whether or not you're overweight).

Survey - who has had a citation for RV overweight? | Good Sam Community - 2539178

Details appreciated like where, details of weight, fine or jail time, did your rig get towed, were you handcuffed... - 2539178

www.rv.net

 

[ColoradoSequoia]

The TDs are just a little knob at the bottom you turn. It has detents to allow you to set compression from 0 (float like a caddy) to 9 (mike tyson just punched you the teeth). Takes <60 seconds to adjust both, though you have to lay on the ground for a moment to reach them. Mine are set on 4 during normal driving and 6 when towing.

My experience is similar to the pics @ColoradoSequoia posted above - much less sag with the stiffer springs, airbags inflated, and WD hitch dialed in. Best comparison photos I have below:

No lift, unladen (left) vs loaded (right) with ~600# TW ,"light" duty WD hitch and 35psi in the firestone air bags. Definite sag in the rear

View attachment 2610428View attachment 2610429

Current 2" TD lift only (left) vs loaded (right) ~900# TW, 30psi in the air bags:

View attachment 2610438View attachment 2610435

Ultimately when loaded I'm between perfectly level and about 1/2" taller in front, depending on the trailer loading.

I like your setup. Did your tires require any trimming? How's your MPG towing?

 

[azstreamer]

The load and weight issues are constant topics on the Airstream Airforums. Some folks think they can tow a 10,000 pound 33' Airstream with a small turbocharged gas engine Ford F150. The issue for the RV world is usually the smaller trucks capacity for weight gets eaten up by the tongue weight to the point that a driver and skinny passenger with their tooth brushes are all that can be legally in the truck. Sure, DOT usually does not stop non-commercial vehicles. But when there is a fatal accident, all the numbers get checked out, especially by the ambulance chaser lawyers.

I have been playing with the numbers for the last year seeing what comfortable SUV choices could tow our 23D. We want a vehicle that can be serviced anywhere. We have many Toyota dealers in the Phoenix metro area and one in Show Low, AZ where we spend the summer. We have a membership and lot in an Airstream only RV park on Lakeside, AZ. Driving cross country, there are Toyota dealers in nearly every medium sized town. Mercedes did away with their USA diesels and have a low number of dealerships. Domestis vehicles have not all had great service lives or longevity.

Our 23D trailer scales 6,069 pounds which is under the 8,100 pound LC rating. Subtracting the published GVW of a LC of 7,385 pounds from the GVVW rating of the LC of 14,400 pounds leaves the real world trailer weight number at 7,015 pounds. Our challenge is our 23D is very modified and has a tongue weight of 932 pounds before I removed the Prodigy RB brake controller system. So I would guess it wouldn't be above 925 pounds now.

Page 198 in the LC owners manual specifies the max trailer and GCVW ratings as mentioned above. There is no mention of maximum tongue weight in the owners manual. The 8,100 pound trailer weight limit would have to imply a structure rated for at 15% tongue weight which many folks follow. That would mean that a tongue weight of 1,215 pounds could be expected. The Toyota manual also states that a trailer over 5,000 pounds requires weight distribution hitch design. Toyota's published trailer rating of 8,100 pounds requires a Cat IV hitch design (Cat III is limited to 8,000 pounds) which supports trailer weights to 10,000 pounds with a 1,000 pound tongue weight.

I am not concerned about my 925 pounds tongue weight. Even if all 925 pounds were on the receiver, there is still (7,385 GVW - 5,815 Curb weight = 1,570 pounds of payload) 645 pounds available for me and the wife and stuff. The reality is that some of the tongue weight gets distributed back to the trailer suspension and also to the front wheels of the LC. So the actual net payload could approach 1,000 pounds. We never tow with anyone else in the vehicle so that leaves weight room for more stuff than we usually carry.

I will use the actual axle ratings with my scales to determine what we can really carry.

 

[linuxgod]

I like your setup. Did your tires require any trimming? How's your MPG towing?

Trimming... yeah. I think I have pics in the "34's on stock setup" thread I started ~4 years ago. Up to 34s can be made to fit, above that requires a lot of patience and/or compromises.

MPG sucks. Speed plays a bit factor. When I was stock I would see about 17 on the highway, unloaded. Probably in the 8-9mpg range on the highway back then. Now without the trailer I can see upwards of 15, maybe 15.5 if I stay under 65 and on flat lands. If I set my cruise at 80 I get about 13. With the trailer I can get maybe 9mpg at 55 or 8mpg at 65. If I'm on long highway stretches I'll run 75 though, and at that point I'm happy if I get 7. With the bumper and roof rack my aero sucks, which doesn't help either.