towing a 20' enclosed trailer behind an 80

[Ebag333]

I'm guessing the Dana 60/70/80, 14 bolt rear axle is MUCH stronger than a 80 series rear axle.

Well don't take it from me.

If you are in a situation where you need to "prove" that the axle is heavier than your average Corolla, explain that the Rear axle is a full-floater like what is used in the Toyota motorhome chassis rear axle and that it shares some of the same components with that axle including the (4) wheel bearings. In adddition, it is disc instead of drum and the differential is significantly larger than the one found in the motorhome chassis

I just unloaded Pappy's new rear locker diff off the air freight truck this afternoon. The box said 97 lbs (just the chuck and actuator)

I have had Dana 60 and 70 and 71 series axles apart. In my opinion the 80 series Cruiser rear axle is on par with a Dana 60 and possibly approaches a 70-71. Of course it is important to point out that the Dana set-up is completely different than the Toyota version.

LC rear ring gear= 9.5"
d60 ring gear 9.75".
Same size shafts as older D60 rears with full floating axles (30 spline).

Don't know about the 80 automatic transmission, but I'm guessing it is much weaker than a NV5600 or Allison auto transmission which is rated to tow much more weight than 7K.

The real reason it is called a "bus tranny" is that the Coaster bus is made at the same Yoshiwara Plant as the Land Cruiser. They are made side-by-side in two different buildings that run parallel to each other. The A442 was installed into the Coasters as well as the Land Cruisers during this time period.

Whether this is true or not anymore, I do not know as we did not see any Coaster manufacturing, just out in the same storage lot as the Land Cruisers getting ready for export.

It has nothing to do with strength, per se, as the A440F and the A343F were both installed into the Coasters during this time period. In fact, most Coasters seem to get the same transmission being installed into the current Land Cruiser of the time period (Coasters also came with H41/42's, same as the Land Cruiser, and the H55, same as non-US market Land Cruisers). I wouldn't be surprised if the current LC200 tranny is being put into the current Coasters (that's just a theory--I don't know for sure).

If the tranny can handle the abuse from hauling a 25 person bus around (and that's some of the worst abuse you can deal a tranny, heavy loads with lots of heavy accelleration in stop and go traffic), I don't think it'll be an issue towing a trailer.

Especially since that vehicle (and engine, and transmission) is rated to tow 7k lbs in Australia, Germany, UK, etc.

 

[fj40charles]

80's are rated to tow 7k lbs in every country in the world, except the US. So the bottom line is that it is rated to tow that much weight.

And a tow hitch isn't rocket science, it's a couple pieces of flat iron welded to a couple pieces of tube.

Not sure why 80s are not rated to tow 7K in the USA. If you exceed the tow limit and end up killing someone, will you end up getting sued? Better yet, how will you sleep?

On the tow hitch, I would much rather use a tow hitch that is rated for the weight instead of trying to fab one up. Don't want or need the liability.

 

[fj40charles]

Originally Posted by locrwln1 View Post
LC rear ring gear= 9.5"
d60 ring gear 9.75".
Same size shafts as older D60 rears with full floating axles (30 spline).

It is more than just the axle shaft diameter. Most 3/4 and 1 ton diesel tow rigs have 14 bolt or Dana70/80 axles. The axle housing is much stronger in addition to having larger ring/pinion gear. LC axle weak link is the pinion. Compare the size of the pinion of the LC with Dana 60/70/80 or 14 bolt.

 

[Elbert]

Class IV hitches meet the requirements to tow a 7k lb trailer. At least one of the port installed hitches on the 80 series (as part of the towing packages, there were two different manufacturers used) is a class IV hitch. Not sure about the other one, but it's pretty likely it's rated the same (same basic construction and design).

80 series drive train are quite a bit beefier than 60 series. They're beefer than many 3/4 and 1 ton trucks I've seen.

I just flatly do not agree with your observations regarding comparisions of drivelines between a FJ80 and 3/4 and 1 ton trucks.

As someone who has towed a good bit (drove a wrecker for about 3 years )...etc I just dont' follow how you can advise someone that it would be ok to be pulling around a fully loaded 20foot enclosed trailer with an FJ80.

I'll be happy to compare my 07 HD 2500 GM Gas burner pickup against any FJ80. It has nothing to do with brands...but has everything to do with capability relevant to this thread...towing 20ft trailer on the pavement.

I've done some stupid stuff in the past regarding towing and luckly all I did was scare myself $&%^.... but it taught me a very valuable lesson. My reccomendations are to the OP...so he does not make the same or similar mistake and potentially more than just getting scared happens.

I just don't see where you are even considering the safe factor.

Land cruisers are cool and very capable trucks off-road and on-road. They are not suitable for towing of any substantial weight / large trailer. Just not in the vehicles capability/design. People can talk about adding this or that...you have not changed the engine, the brakes, the frame, the springs, or the length of the frame...etc.

 

[Ebag333]

Not sure why 80s are not rated to tow 7K in the USA. If you exceed the tow limit and end up killing someone, will you end up getting sued? Better yet, how will you sleep?

On the tow hitch, I would much rather use a tow hitch that is rated for the weight instead of trying to fab one up. Don't want or need the liability.

So are you running completely stock then? Haven't lifted your truck? Stock tires? No modifications? Kept up on recommended maintence windows 100% to Toyota spec?

If I offered to bet you haven't done all that, it'd be a sucker bet. No one has.

In the litigious society we live in today, if it goes sideways just rolling down the road, you're gonna get sued.

80's aren't rated to tow 7k in the US for one reason and one reason only, and that's 'cause of the likelyhood of getting sued. It doesn't have much to do with actual safety standards (since the US is falling behind other countries there) or capabilites.

Originally Posted by locrwln1 View Post
LC rear ring gear= 9.5"
d60 ring gear 9.75".
Same size shafts as older D60 rears with full floating axles (30 spline).

It is more than just the axle shaft diameter. Most 3/4 and 1 ton diesel tow rigs have 14 bolt or Dana70/80 axles. The axle housing is much stronger in addition to having larger ring/pinion gear. LC axle weak link is the pinion. Compare the size of the pinion of the LC with Dana 60/70/80 or 14 bolt.

Funny how it keeps going up. FIrst it was 60/70/80, now it's just 70/80.

The weakest link in the 80 rear axle is the axle shafts. They are prone to twisting when under lots of load. They can (and do) break, but fairly rarely, the bigger problem is when the e-locker is engaged the axle shaft twists and it's a bear to get out. But that's not much of an issue for towing.

People don't break the ring and/or pinion. The vast majority of the cases I've heard of broken rings and/or pinion was likely due to it being setup wrong.

Axle housing isn't an issue either, for the rear. You can (and people do) bend the front axle housing. Have a club member who let someone jump her 80 at Pismo, enough air to do damage to the magnolia on her roof rack.

Front axle bent. A lot. Ended up needing a whole new one. I think CreeperSleeper saw it when it was up at MT. Rear? No problems with it.

Additionally I've spoken with some people overseas (Spain, IIRC) who run an 80 in one of those competitions where you're seeing who can complete the course the fastest. Involves lots of hang time. They gussetted the heck out of front axle, I think they did the rear as well but only a bit and they weren't much concerned with it.

Dana 70/80 prolly has a stronger axle housing, but the 80 series is easily comparble to a Dana 60, and it's plenty strong enough to handle 7k lbs.

I just don't see where you are even considering the safe factor.

The safe factor is that Toyota themselves says it is safe enough.

 

[fj40charles]

Funny how it keeps going up. FIrst it was 60/70/80, now it's just 70/80.


Dana 70/80 prolly has a stronger axle housing, but the 80 series is easily comparble to a Dana 60, and it's plenty strong enough to handle 7k lbs.

Some early 3/4 ton trucks/vans had dana 60 rear axles. I used Dana 60/70/80 comparison because I was not specifically talking about a particular brand/year/model.

Most of the newer 3/4 ton trucks (1994 + for Dodge) will have a Dana 70 or 80 or AAM. GM will have the 14 bolt. Ford will have the Sterling. Comparing the strength of the 80 rear axle to a 30 spline Dana 60 is not really relevant since most 3/4 ton pickups have an axle stronger than Dana 60. My 3/4 ton Dodge has a Dana 80 with 37 spline axles. 37 spline axle is larger than 1.5" in diameter.

I disagree 100% with your opinion about the 80s having drivetrain that is stronger than "most" 3/4 ton trucks.

I don't agree with your opinion about towing a 20 foot enclosed trailer safely with an 80 and I consider that advice to be less than responsible to the OP.

I'm not questioning the durability of the 80 series. Just don't feel that is is well suited to tow a 20' enclosed 7K trailer. Also, I think you'd be very lucky to get 10-11 mpg towing an enclosed 20' 7K trailer.

 

[fj40charles]

People don't break the ring and/or pinion. The vast majority of the cases I've heard of broken rings and/or pinion was likely due to it being setup wrong.

When you drive a diesel powered pickup with lots of torque things can and do break. A single fueling box on a CP3 injection pump'd engine will easily produce 500 HP and 800 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels.

Transmission input shafts and ring/pinions can and do break when they're not careful with the throttle.

 

[Ebag333]

I disagree 100% with your opinion about the 80s having drivetrain that is stronger than "most" 3/4 ton trucks.

That's not what I said. What I said was...

They're beefer than many 3/4 and 1 ton trucks I've seen.

And I've already stated that a dana 70 or 80 is stronger. But plenty of heavy duty tow rigs use Dana 60's, which the 80 is at the very least comporable to.

I don't agree with your opinion about towing a 20 foot enclosed trailer safely with an 80 and I consider that advice to be less than responsible to the OP.

Why? Because Toyota says it's okay? Or because plenty of people do it?

And I actually need to admit a bit of fault. Toyota's stated towing capacity isn't 7000 lbs. It's 3500 KG, which converts to 7,716 lbs. So I was off by more than 10%.

I know IdahoDoug tows a 6k lb boat and trailer regularly without issue. And if anyone's paranoid about safety, it's him. And he knows a thing or two about safety. (FYI he worked for Toyota. )

Also, I think you'd be very lucky to get 10-11 mpg towing an enclosed 20' 7K trailer.

This is the one thing that we agree on. ;p

Though I will say this, MPG is highly dependant on far too many factors to even guess. Head vs tail wind, octane, timing adjustments, engine tuning, etc etc etc. And of course if you have any mountains to climb (real ones!) that number will drop quick.

I have seen multiple reports however of people pulling 6k lbs plus with their 80 and still breaking 11 MPG.

Of course if you're driving an 80 in the first place, it's not 'cause of the gas mileage.

When you drive a diesel powered pickup with lots of torque things can and do break. A single fueling box on a CP3 injection pump'd engine will easily produce 500 HP and 800 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels.

Transmission input shafts and ring/pinions can and do break when they're not careful with the throttle.

Well that's not an issue here at all. First off, you are dealing with about ~225 HP, not 500 HP. And since the 80 is full time 4 wheel drive, the torque is split between the front and rear axles.

Highly unlikely to break anything towing.

 

[fj40charles]

Ebag,

I'm done with this thread. I think we discussed enough items/points for the original poster to make up his/her mind.

Charles

 

[nicholas]

Great points on both sides guys. I appreciate all of the feedback. Here are a few random thoughts I had.

The mpg point. Kind of irrelevant imo considering the alternative is a pos 24' moving truck that get 6-8mpg and its diesel which usually costs more that the premium gas the supercharged 80 requires. So overall fuel costs would probably be similar if I had to guess.

The liability issue. This is probably one of my biggest worries, but like ebag said, if i harm/kill someone accidentally in a heavily modified 80 i'm hosed either way towing or not.

I definitely can't do this with the 35's so buying another set of 285's or shipping my other set out her to OH will add some cost to this venture.

I definitely wouldn't be rallying this trailer. Unloaded i rarely drive above 60mph. I'd probably go 50-55mph max, and definitely slower on turns etc. I'd be traveling SW from N. OH to Tucson which I would guess is pretty flat until NM/AZ.

Perhaps I could try talking my neighbor who owns a construction company into letting me do a short trial run with a load of concrete or gravel before I commit to a trailer.

Overall i'm still on the fence. One thing that might kill the deal is the cost of a trailer. I have a friend who's father recently bought a brand new 20+ft trailer. Supposedly the recent E. Coast hurricanes have driven up the prices of used trailers to use as storage. Apparently he found that a new trailer wasn't much more than a used one. So if I had to fork out 4K for a new trailer it would kill the deal. I figure I'd have to find a "decent" trailer in the $1500-2000 range and I haven't found anything thus far that meets that criteria.

 

[Ebag333]

One thing that might kill the deal is the cost of a trailer. I have a friend who's father recently bought a brand new 20+ft trailer. Supposedly the recent E. Coast hurricanes have driven up the prices of used trailers to use as storage. Apparently he found that a new trailer wasn't much more than a used one. So if I had to fork out 4K for a new trailer it would kill the deal. I figure I'd have to find a "decent" trailer in the $1500-2000 range and I haven't found anything thus far that meets that criteria.

Good luck. Trailers are stupid expensive. I've seen rusted (metal frame) and rotting (bed) trailers go for $1500. You can find good deals, but they can be hard to come by.

 

[skersfan]

It will need to be a one of kind deal, to get a quality 20 foot enclosed trailer, that is built properly for holding the weight you want I would guess no less the 4000. 1500 to 2000 will get you junk is my guess.

Take the truck and go with Ryder, do not use a Uhaul. Ryder makes there dealers maintain them. I bought a used 35 foot box truck with 103K on it. All maintenance provided in a log from day one. I drove it another 300K and it was still running perfectly when I sold and the last time I saw it, the owner said he had put new brakes on it and had the turbo seals replaced, and he had driven nearly 100k.

Uhaul does not do much with their trucks, and every time I see someone moving and broke down, it is always a Uhaul Never a Ryder.

 

[Corbet]

Rent the moving truck.

 

[nicholas]

Agree, moving truck seems like the best option. This pipe dream all started a few weeks ago when I remembered a convo I had with a classmate a few years ago. He owned a dying LR discovery and bought an enclosed trailer when he had to move across the country after graduation. Never heard the end result or if he ever made the trip with the LR intact, but I do know that he was looking at only about a 10' trailer. Never knew trailers were so expensive either. The cost of a trailer makes the $1500-2000 truck rental look like peanuts.

 

[skersfan]

Steel has gone sky high, three times as much as it was two years ago.

I honestly think you are doing the smartest and safest thing for you and your family. Good luck on the trip.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Math might help

As one that tows 5k+ regularly with my SC 80 (and been routinely trailer inspected several times), it's all in the math, and what you can produce for documentation when stopped for inspection. Along with functioning brake controls, the two key docs to have ready for inspection are:

Door Sticker USA
GVWR = 6525lb
GVWR F = 3305
GVWR R = 3970

Owners Manual USA
Gross Combination Weight Rating (with tow package) = 11525lb
-----------------------------------

80 Truck Curb Weight = 4750lbs
6525 - 4750 = 1775 total excess axle load capacity
1082lbs Rear/693F
11525lbs GCVWR - 4750lbs Curb = 6775lbs additional hauling capacity for loading truck and trailer (I claim this means the 7k rumor is not just a 'euro spec' rating thing)
Axle Weight distribution = 61R/39F

So I see no way to legally tow a 7000lb trailer behind the 80. 6000 with passengers and conservatively loaded cargo area is a more realistic limit. Remember, you also can't legally exceed the individual axle load, so at 6000lbs, equalizer bars are going to be required.

If you are inspected, and fail, your trip is over (can be at the site of infraction), and the fines are brutal. And many states have found 'recreational/occasional' trailered rigs to be good sources of revenue - it's the same laws as applied to truckers. Liability beyond what you can document as legal, is all yours to own. Unrated bumpers? I don't recall being inspected for that (I have the Toyota under bumper hitch installed), they only looked at the hitch and the tongue. But again, with no rating tag, the liability goes to the guy that assumed it's rating.

That said, I've towed a 24foot camper with equalizers with my SC 80, and found no problems with vehicle controlling the size of the box (stock suspension, airbags x 4, LTX tires). But that was with a 5500lb GVW trailer.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151422&d=1182103008

Bottom Line: I just don't see it realistically happening at 7000lb. Add in the western slopes you hit before you get to AZ, this would be a really uncomfortable ride, with a Supercharger working really hard to get you there..

WRT rear axles, the Toyota FJ80 rear at 9.5inches, certainly puts it really close to a Dana 60 (9.75). That's in the 3/4-1ton axle class.

HTH and my .02

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[Mace]

80's are rated to tow 7k lbs in every country in the world, except the US.

the fact is that if it all goes sideways it won't matter if he's towing within or above the recommended weight.

The 80 is not rated for the weight in that US. Meaning, it is illegal to use it to tow that much weight.

It's not a lawsuit, it's the law.. Like speeding or running a stop sign.

So yes, if an accident happens, if he is within the vehicles weight rating it will matter.

Class IV hitches meet the requirements to tow a 7k lb trailer. At least one of the port installed hitches on the 80 series (as part of the towing packages, there were two different manufacturers used) is a class IV hitch. Not sure about the other one, but it's pretty likely it's rated the same (same basic construction and design).

80 series drive train are quite a bit beefier than 60 series. They're beefer than many 3/4 and 1 ton trucks I've seen.

A. Just because a hitch is made for the 80 does not legally increase it's weight rating.

B. 80's drivetrain is essentially identical to a 60 series drivetrain. Early 80's had the same SF rear end and tranny as a 60. The front axle actually has a smaller ring gear but bigger birfs. The drivetrain is not Beefier than a 60 series in any reasonable manner. As charles said, they are NOT beefier than the 3/4 or 1 ton axles either. Not by a long stretch. The only similarity between a D60 and the cruiser axle is the spline count. Which is a small piece of the equation.

80's aren't rated to tow 7k in the US for one reason and one reason only, and that's 'cause of the likelyhood of getting sued. It doesn't have much to do with actual safety standards (since the US is falling behind other countries there) or capabilites.

The safe factor is that Toyota themselves says it is safe enough.

The US federal govt states that it is not. If Toyota thought that it should have been rated for another ton of weight. They should have proved it. They did not. It makes no difference what Toyota says.. Again, this is not a lawsuit, it's the law.

Great points on both sides guys. I appreciate all of the feedback. Here are a few random thoughts I had.

The mpg point. Kind of irrelevant imo considering the alternative is a pos 24' moving truck that get 6-8mpg and its diesel which usually costs more that the premium gas the supercharged 80 requires. So overall fuel costs would probably be similar if I had to guess.

The liability issue. This is probably one of my biggest worries, but like ebag said, if i harm/kill someone accidentally in a heavily modified 80 i'm hosed either way towing or not.

I definitely can't do this with the 35's so buying another set of 285's or shipping my other set out her to OH will add some cost to this venture.

I definitely wouldn't be rallying this trailer. Unloaded i rarely drive above 60mph. I'd probably go 50-55mph max, and definitely slower on turns etc. I'd be traveling SW from N. OH to Tucson which I would guess is pretty flat until NM/AZ.

Perhaps I could try talking my neighbor who owns a construction company into letting me do a short trial run with a load of concrete or gravel before I commit to a trailer.

Overall i'm still on the fence. One thing that might kill the deal is the cost of a trailer. I have a friend who's father recently bought a brand new 20+ft trailer. Supposedly the recent E. Coast hurricanes have driven up the prices of used trailers to use as storage. Apparently he found that a new trailer wasn't much more than a used one. So if I had to fork out 4K for a new trailer it would kill the deal. I figure I'd have to find a "decent" trailer in the $1500-2000 range and I haven't found anything thus far that meets that criteria.

Take it for what it's worth, you have a single person telling you what you want to hear and a multitude of people telling you that it is a bad idea.

First off, it's not just a lawsuit, it's a long discussion with Johnny law about why you exceeded the vehicles tow rating.

Consider this, how many big rig weigh stations are you going to be driving by on your trip? Highway patrol tends to take weight ratings seriously and you plugging along at 50-55 on a 70 mph highway (and slowing down for corners) will stick out like a sore thumb...

You do not have to get in an accident to have your trip cancelled rapidly and expensively by a man with a big hat and gun...

 

[ntsqd]

The solution is so simple that it's been missed. Have Ebag333 tow the trailer with his FJ.

Was it me, I'd buy or rent a 3/4t or 1t turbo-diesel truck to make the tow with. Then I'd know that I had enough weight rating and brakes to handle any reasonable situation that came up.
Power to move something is never the problem. I've towed ~5k with a 22R. Don't ask about stopping that combo as it'll take me until next week to get back to you. And no, I didn't go very far or very fast with that load.

 

[SUMOTOY]

...
A. Just because a hitch is made for the 80 does not legally increase it's weight rating.

Changing a class III to class IV on the 80? Sure it does. A class III is not rated to tow the GCVWR of the 80. A Class IV is rated to tow to maximum GCVWR.

...B. 80's drivetrain is essentially identical to a 60 series drivetrain. Early 80's had the same SF rear end and tranny as a 60. The front axle actually has a smaller ring gear but bigger birfs. The drivetrain is not Beefier than a 60 series in any reasonable manner. As charles said, they are NOT beefier than the 3/4 or 1 ton axles either. Not by a long stretch. The only similarity between a D60 and the cruiser axle is the spline count. Which is a small piece of the equation.

Beefier? Not a good word, because technically that would include the static GVW on the axle without additional load. Certainly in the same class of a D60 at 9.5in. Remember 3rds are rated to each axle weight capacity, not the combined GVWR. That's reflected in the door sticker the rear axle capacity is 3970, the front axle is 3305. If a 4700lb truck static weight is 60F/40R, that 80 rear sure looks darn close to a '1ton' rear axle to me.

...The US federal govt states that it is not. If Toyota thought that it should have been rated for another ton of weight. They should have proved it. They did not. It makes no difference what Toyota says.. Again, this is not a lawsuit, it's the law.

US government (inspectors) will look at the toyota documentation (or look it up on their computer). The owners manual is documentation for load ratings, I've used it to prove so. Combined Gross Vehicle Weight maximum of 11525 is listed on page 114 of the 94 80 Owners Manual.

None of the 'additional' information and opinion changes the recommendation that towing 7k with an 80 is not a good idea, nor is it legal in the USA (nor do I think it's legal anywhere else using the math above.)

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[Mace]

Changing a class III to class IV on the 80? Sure it does. A class III is not rated to tow the GCVWR of the 80. A Class IV is rated to tow to maximum GCVWR.

Yes, a Class IV hitch is rated higher than a class III hitch. That is not what I was talking about.

Class IV is up to 12,000 gross trailer weight. What I was trying to say was just because you bolt a Class IV trailer hitch on to a 80 series truck, it does not legally change the legal tow rating of the 80 series to a capacity of 12K gross trailer weight.

Beefier? Not a good word, because technically that would include the static GVW on the axle without additional load. Certainly in the same class of a D60 at 9.5in. Remember 3rds are rated to each axle weight capacity, not the combined GVWR. That's reflected in the door sticker the rear axle capacity is 3970, the front axle is 3305. If a 4700lb truck static weight is 60F/40R, that 80 rear sure looks darn close to a '1ton' rear axle to me.

How does "Beefier" when compared to an axle have any reference to the static GVW? You are looking at numbers on paper. D60/D70/D80/Sterling/14bolt housings are all heavier duty/stronger, D60/D70/D80/Sterling/14bolt pinions and ring gears are all bigger/stronger. Everything about them is more robust with the exception of the D60 30 spline shafts as I have said before. For pure giggles, compare the basic weight of each axle and see for yourself.

None of the 'additional' information and opinion changes the recommendation that towing 7k with an 80 is not a good idea, nor is it legal in the USA (nor do I think it's legal anywhere else using the math above.)

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged

Yep