Torque Steer on newly lifted LC

[Taco2Cruiser]

The 3mm wire and free height difference allows the TD coil to be softer ride when unloaded and allow for a larger weight load range overall.

TD only has three broad range coils. Their light coil is in the range of every other manufacturers heavy coil but with a lighter wire diameter.

Light 0-660#
Constant 661-1100#
Constant Plus 1101-1500#

Both TD and OME are made in the same factory with the same X5K German steel on the same machines. King has been making the TD springs for decades. I know OME has had theirs made by King for quite awhile as well. I imagine since the first reproducible coils came into being for both companies.


J

Wow, I'll say, that is a different approach to spring design. That's why I enjoy seeing what engineers do with the same raw materials. So TD has low spring rate, but tall free height making what they say are wide load ranges? So TDs equipped rear ends sit really high when unloaded and have a lot more droop when loaded, I guess it would have to with those specs.

That's a lot of movement, and movement equals stress and fatigue. But they are made out of some good stuff so probably would be a hot minute before they sag. I know when I was building pre-runners, it was all about "as little spring movement as possible." in relation to how long the coil was and letting the shocks to the work. That's why we were running like 2 foot+ coils so the distance between wraps wouldn't change too much and break the coil. Or for leaf springs we would let the shackles do the work. Very interesting that TD went long and springy on a weight carrying setup.

I might give TD a try after this second OME spring I'm putting in as I have a more constant load setup and need more of a flex setup instead of a heavy weight/load carrying down a gravel road setup.


"TonyP has the TD200-931HL 275# rate with 455/425 height and 19mm wire (661-1100# range) 7.2 wraps."
Hey @TonyP how does that coil feel with your current setup with the rear bumper and your cargo load? Do you feel it is too soft of a coil?

Those springs are basically the same as the 2722:
2722: 275 lbf/in, 440mm & 430 mm free height, 19mm bar diameter (.5mm thicker bar, would equal a constant 220 lbs load over 2721)

Ride height and shock valving aside, I felt the 2722 with just camping gear was too light and soft so I just bought a 2723 which is:
2723: 340 lbf/in, 450mm & 440mm free height, 20mm bar diameter (constant 440 lbs load)

Ultimate when I have my rear bumper done, I was going to go even higher, but what say you?

@reevesci, do you have all the specs of those three TD coils, I'm think I want to experiment.

 

[TonyP]

Wow, I'll say, that is a different approach to spring design. That's why I enjoy seeing what engineers do with the same raw materials. So TD has low spring rate, but tall free height making what they say are wide load ranges? So TDs equipped rear ends sit really high when unloaded and have a lot more droop when loaded, I guess it would have to with those specs.

That's a lot of movement, and movement equals stress and fatigue. But they are made out of some good stuff so probably would be a hot minute before they sag. I know when I was building pre-runners, it was all about "as little spring movement as possible." in relation to how long the coil was and letting the shocks to the work. That's why we were running like 2 foot+ coils so the distance between wraps wouldn't change too much and break the coil. Or for leaf springs we would let the shackles do the work. Very interesting that TD went long and springy on a weight carrying setup.

I might give TD a try after this second OME spring I'm putting in as I have a more constant load setup and need more of a flex setup instead of a heavy weight/load carrying down a gravel road setup.


"TonyP has the TD200-931HL 275# rate with 455/425 height and 19mm wire (661-1100# range) 7.2 wraps."
Hey @TonyP how does that coil feel with your current setup with the rear bumper and your cargo load? Do you feel it is too soft of a coil?

Those springs are basically the same as the 2722:
2722: 275 lbf/in, 440mm & 430 mm free height, 19mm bar diameter (.5mm thicker bar, would equal a constant 220 lbs load over 2721)

Ride height and shock valving aside, I felt the 2722 with just camping gear was too light and soft so I just bought a 2723 which is:
2723: 340 lbf/in, 450mm & 440mm free height, 20mm bar diameter (constant 440 lbs load)

Ultimate when I have my rear bumper done, I was going to go even higher, but what say you?

@reevesci, do you have all the specs of those three TD coils, I'm think I want to experiment.

It's definitely not too soft of a coil. I'd honestly say it's just right for MY setup. I'm not just saying that to justify ownership or anything. It just feels right to me. It's somewhat firm (not jarring) unloaded but much more compliant when loaded, as to be expected. With my particular rear axle weight it's just stiff enough to carry the weight over semi-quick stuff in the desert and still be able to dial in comfort and stay off the bumps using the shock valving. In full camp setup, on a CAT scale I'm at 3400# steer axle and 4000# rear. I haven't felt it hit my bumps in the rear yet and I've done some stupid stuff in this 200. Not to say I haven't kissed the bumpstops, I just didn't feel it. Granted, that's also a product of the shock itself on the "high speed" stuff.

 

[TonyP]

Wow, I'll say, that is a different approach to spring design. That's why I enjoy seeing what engineers do with the same raw materials. So TD has low spring rate, but tall free height making what they say are wide load ranges? So TDs equipped rear ends sit really high when unloaded and have a lot more droop when loaded, I guess it would have to with those specs.

That's a lot of movement, and movement equals stress and fatigue. But they are made out of some good stuff so probably would be a hot minute before they sag. I know when I was building pre-runners, it was all about "as little spring movement as possible." in relation to how long the coil was and letting the shocks to the work. That's why we were running like 2 foot+ coils so the distance between wraps wouldn't change too much and break the coil. Or for leaf springs we would let the shackles do the work. Very interesting that TD went long and springy on a weight carrying setup.

I might give TD a try after this second OME spring I'm putting in as I have a more constant load setup and need more of a flex setup instead of a heavy weight/load carrying down a gravel road setup.


"TonyP has the TD200-931HL 275# rate with 455/425 height and 19mm wire (661-1100# range) 7.2 wraps."
Hey @TonyP how does that coil feel with your current setup with the rear bumper and your cargo load? Do you feel it is too soft of a coil?

Those springs are basically the same as the 2722:
2722: 275 lbf/in, 440mm & 430 mm free height, 19mm bar diameter (.5mm thicker bar, would equal a constant 220 lbs load over 2721)

Ride height and shock valving aside, I felt the 2722 with just camping gear was too light and soft so I just bought a 2723 which is:
2723: 340 lbf/in, 450mm & 440mm free height, 20mm bar diameter (constant 440 lbs load)

Ultimate when I have my rear bumper done, I was going to go even higher, but what say you?

@reevesci, do you have all the specs of those three TD coils, I'm think I want to experiment.

I missed the last part of your post. One thing to note is you probably have more gear than I do. I tend to pack light and I'm usually solo. As long as I have booze, tunes and food I'm set. From what I understand you have a family to pack for also. So your "camping gear" is probably heavier than mine. I'd be interested to see what your loaded axle weights are if the 2722s are too soft.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I'm not just saying that to justify ownership or anything.

Oh I know brother, and that's why I ask you a lot of stuff, because I know I'll get the real deal to better my decision making process.

And now that you mention you pack light, maybe I am looking at this wrong. I'll get on a Cat scale again in a couple weeks. I won't have my super setup, but it will be close.

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

Here are the three standard offering specs:


200TDC-931L 475/445 240# 7.2 wraps 18mm wire (0-660# load range)

200TDC-931HL 455/425 275# 7.2 wraps 19mm wire (661-1100# load range)

200TDC-931VHL 455/425 340# 7.2 wraps 20mm wire (1101-1500# load range)



There is one more coil but its a monster. Dual rate progressive. I have a feeling these are for the canopy conversion rigs.

200TDC-931AVHD 470/460 350-650# 8.3 wraps 22.4 wire (have an email into TD for load range??)

J

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

As far as what seems like a different approach.... Take a peak in the 80 and 100 forums. Quite a few mfgs/resellers are going to this lighter/longer freeheight spring. Look at the comments about OME in comparison to other new spring designs.

My 3" TourFlex coils that I had TD and King design for the 80 and 100 are a good example. Dual rate tapered design.

The 661-1100# rear specs-- w/ 320/180 spring rate
19.5 to 17mm tapered wire design
Free height 555-545mm (10mm DS to PS spec difference)

My 100 loaded with 1090# from a recent trip only 1.25" ride height difference from standard daily load. Rode like a Cadillac. I have almost 9000 miles on the set up and run about 600# of gear at all times. No spring sag and extremely responsive.

100 normally has a 1.5" rake- pictured a .25" rake.

I'm looking at the TourFlex coils for the 200. I'd have to either farm out the front coil overs to King Shocks (I'm a dealer for them as well) or talk with TD about a custom run of fronts to match parameters.


Yes, there is almost 1100# in there... Loaded storage drawers, 2 full suspension kits, dual swing rear bumper and misc other parts for customers and camping gear.

 

[linuxgod]

G,

As Tony said, I'd swap the rear cols and reset the KDSS. Maybe TD is wrong on the US/LHD version spring swap. People are wrong all the time, even the ones in the "know" from my experience.

J

Yeah I just need to stop discussing this and swap them, I know I normally obsessively research things before I buy, or fiddle with them. Guess I've just been looking for someone else who had the same issue I had (lean and torque steer) and made the change I'm thinking of (spring swap) and got the desired result to instill confidence for me.

I was actually wondering if the 2008-2011 US-spec LCs had a taller spring on the DS, and Toyota changed it starting in 2013? Time for me to obsessively search the forums and internet for anyone with an 08-11 who can confirm/deny that...

 

[NLScooby]

Yeah I just need to stop discussing this and swap them, I know I normally obsessively research things before I buy, or fiddle with them. Guess I've just been looking for someone else who had the same issue I had (lean and torque steer) and made the change I'm thinking of (spring swap) and got the desired result to instill confidence for me.

I was actually wondering if the 2008-2011 US-spec LCs had a taller spring on the DS, and Toyota changed it starting in 2013? Time for me to obsessively search the forums and internet for anyone with an 08-11 who can confirm/deny that...

I have the stock springs I recently removed from my 2008 at home. I'll measure them today and get back to you....but I don't recall which was left and which was right. At least I can tell you how tall a 9 year old rear spring with 100K miles is....

 

[linuxgod]

I'd be interested in that at least. I have my 2013 springs with 65k on them in my basement still. Wonder if they will be the same...

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

As far as what seems like a different approach.... Take a peak in the 80 and 100 forums. Quite a few mfgs/resellers are going to this lighter/longer freeheight spring. Look at the comments about OME in comparison to other new spring designs.

My 3" TourFlex coils that I had TD and King design for the 80 and 100 are a good example. Dual rate tapered design.

The 661-1100# rear specs-- w/ 320/180 spring rate
19.5 to 17mm tapered wire design
Free height 555-545mm (10mm DS to PS spec difference)

My 100 loaded with 1090# from a recent trip only 1.25" ride height difference from standard daily load. Rode like a Cadillac. I have almost 9000 miles on the set up and run about 600# of gear at all times. No spring sag and extremely responsive.

100 normally has a 1.5" rake- pictured a .25" rake.

I'm looking at the TourFlex coils for the 200, but waiting to see the new TD 50mm bore remote resi dual adjustable foam cells. I'd have to either farm out the front coil overs to King Shocks (I'm a dealer for them as well) or talk with TD about a custom run of fronts to match parameters.


Yes, there is almost 1100# in there... Loaded storage drawers, 2 full suspension kits, dual swing rear bumper and misc other parts for customers and camping gear.
View attachment 1521986

Well 80s and 100s factory suspensions were taller coils to begin with. Then Toyota advanced their design to go to a shorter coil but yield more flex out of it.

That's why I question old ways when things always are changing. It makes me think companies don't think deeper about issues and just try and hold on to what they've been doing for XX years. Not to say the old way doesn't work, but I have to know it is still the right way.

I think the lower weight springs TD offerings, like the one on Tony's truck is very attractive for the lighter set ups over OME offerings, but seeing the heavier TD specs, they are not doing that longer and light setup as the lighter TD coils.

Looking at their 200TDC-931VHL 455/425 340# 7.2 wraps 20mm wire (1101-1500# load range)

I just moved from OME 2722s to 2723s, which is 340 lbf/in, 450mm & 440mm free height, 20mm bar diameter. But OME says that is only for a constant 440 lbs load.

So how does the same specs coils (actually OME will be taller as one coil is almost an inch taller with the only one just 5mm shorter) have such different load rating recommendation by the manufactures?

Doesn't that sound like something doesnt add up? I does to me. Especially when I just came from 2722s and know that it is too light for even 300 pounds of gear.

Not saying one companies is better than the other, but things are even close to advertised capacities even though the raw specs are the same.

 

[TRAIL TAILOR]

Well 80s and 100s factory suspensions were taller coils to begin with. Then Toyota advanced their design to go to a shorter coil but yield more flex out of it.

That's why I question old ways when things always are changing. It makes me think companies don't think deeper about issues and just try and hold on to what they've been doing for XX years. Not to say the old way doesn't work, but I have to know it is still the right way.

I think the lower weight springs TD offerings, like the one on Tony's truck is very attractive for the lighter set ups over OME offerings, but seeing the heavier TD specs, they are not doing that longer and light setup as the lighter TD coils.

Looking at their 200TDC-931VHL 455/425 340# 7.2 wraps 20mm wire (1101-1500# load range)

I just moved from OME 2722s to 2723s, which is 340 lbf/in, 450mm & 440mm free height, 20mm bar diameter. But OME says that is only for a constant 440 lbs load.

So how does the same specs coils (actually OME will be taller as one coil is almost an inch taller with the only one just 5mm shorter) have such different load rating recommendation by the manufactures?

Doesn't that sound like something doesnt add up? I does to me. Especially when I just came from 2722s and know that it is too light for even 300 pounds of gear.

Not saying one companies is better than the other, but things are even close to advertised capacities even though the raw specs are the same.

I have asked myself this question as well. I know that TD uses a X5K steel and this can be the only difference according to the tech specs. But, even OME says theirs are a X5K as well...Maybe there are different grades of X5K we are not privy to that make them so different? So, I don't have an answer here, sorry.

In my honest opinion I feel the TD coils are under rated for what they say they are. The 660-1100# springs will easily handle 1200+ worth of load with no tail dragging, actually still sits level or have a slight rake. Either way it's confusing as hell. Maybe this is why most people say the OME springs are too stiff for the advertised load rating? IDK... But you say they were too light...

Oh and the TD200-931AVHD.... That is for an armored 200. I keep forgetting TD supplies AU and the Middle East with suspensions for their military rigs... Those are for a 8800-11200# total weight rig. YIKES!

J

 

[SQRRRL]

Yeah that's the first fix I'll attempt since MScruiser's KDSS-compression trick has done nothing for me and I highly suspect it's the lean culprit.

I've pulled the springs twice before (once to install the air bags, and the second time for the lift) and each time the left spring comes out easier than the right. Both times I unbolted the KDSS sway bar and getting that back into position was a b*tch. And I did that while the truck was on a lift, so I had a lot more leverage than doing it on jack stands in my driveway. Any advice to make the swap easier? Wondering if I can (safely) ratchet strap the springs while they're compressed on the vehicle so they come out easier?

I had a TD suspension installed by a Toyota Dealer. She sits level and alignment feels good.
I found a dealer with an "off road" guy. We talked and I chose him over the other

Yeah I just need to stop discussing this and swap them, I know I normally obsessively research things before I buy, or fiddle with them. Guess I've just been looking for someone else who had the same issue I had (lean and torque steer) and made the change I'm thinking of (spring swap) and got the desired result to instill confidence for me.

I was actually wondering if the 2008-2011 US-spec LCs had a taller spring on the DS, and Toyota changed it starting in 2013? Time for me to obsessively search the forums and internet for anyone with an 08-11 who can confirm/deny that...

I would think the lean is causing the torque steer......no? My stock 2013 sits level side to side. Odd.

 

[SQRRRL]

I had a TD suspension installed by a Toyota Dealer. She sits level and alignment feels good.
I found a dealer with an "off road" guy. We talked and I chose him over the other

I would think the lean is causing the torque steer......no? My stock 2013 sits level side to side. Odd.

My bad. I have TD suspension.

 

[linuxgod]

I had a TD suspension installed by a Toyota Dealer. She sits level and alignment feels good.
I found a dealer with an "off road" guy. We talked and I chose him over the other

I would think the lean is causing the torque steer......no? My stock 2013 sits level side to side. Odd.

I think the lean is causing the issue as well. Will find out when I can work on the truck for the afternoon. Seems t always take me 2x what the book says to complete.

Do you know if the tech who installed yours put the taller spring on the drivers or passengers side?

 

[SQRRRL]

I can have an answer for you tomorrow at the latest.

 

[linuxgod]

I can have an answer for you tomorrow at the latest.

I'm very curious...

 

[SQRRRL]

OK. My springs are put on the correct side as shown on spring. R/H & L/H.
Yours must be opposite.
Good luck brah!

 

[linuxgod]

OK. My springs are put on the correct side as shown on spring. R/H & L/H.
Yours must be opposite.
Good luck brah!

Thanks, that's annoyingly good news. Yes mine are reversed - TD told me to put the taller RH spring on the drivers side!

Hoping I can get some time this weekend to swap them. If not, definitely over Labor Day.

Thanks, this adds a lot of confidence for me that I'm doing the right thing. (I'd hate to tell me wife I needed to swap them
Back again!)

 

[NLScooby]

@linuxgod , I measured my stock springs (2008 model with 104K miles):

• One was 18" - and it had blue and purple paint markings from the factory
• The other was approx. 17 3/8" - and it had red and pink paint markings from the factory.

Perhaps someone else with their stock springs still on can tell us which paint markings are on which side?

 

[SQRRRL]

Thanks, that's annoyingly good news. Yes mine are reversed - TD told me to put the taller RH spring on the drivers side!

Hoping I can get some time this weekend to swap them. If not, definitely over Labor Day.

Thanks, this adds a lot of confidence for me that I'm doing the right thing. (I'd hate to tell me wife I needed to swap them
Back again!)

Sorry to take so long. My right inner CV boot tore and spit grease all over the place. Dealer said it was from the lift. I was thinking it happened during install. They were cool and covered the cost. Has anyone else had this issue?