Torque Steer on newly lifted LC

Tripledave

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Has anyone noticed and/or addressed a torque steer issue on their 200? I recently had my 200 lifted with the OME/SPC UCA Kit by the fine folks at Slee Offroad, didn't visually notice that the rear axle had moved one way or another, alignment was done at their shop (specs look great on paper), felt the torque steer immediately but thought I could live with it. Rig drives straight as an arrow unless under acceleration btw. It is now driving me insane. I've thought to research an adjustable panhard rod and decided to do a little fishing for knowledge/experience for this issue here. What do you guys think or recommend? Am I just over sensitive or should I pursue this? Thanks in advance gentlemen-Dave
 

TexAZ

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There was a similar case here in Phoenix last year. Turned out to be the steering assembly getting worn, and causing bad torque steer and pulling to one side when braking.

do you notice any pull in one direction or the other when braking?
does the wheel pull to the right and stay there or snap back?
 

LandCruiserPhil

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Not that I've heard. If you care to explain how that solved the issue, I'd love to learn about how and why however.
In my case and many others torque steer is caused by the increased angle of the CV axles. With Part time CV axles are not driven or turning.
 

Tripledave

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There was a similar case here in Phoenix last year. Turned out to be the steering assembly getting worn, and causing bad torque steer and pulling to one side when braking.

do you notice any pull in one direction or the other when braking?
does the wheel pull to the right and stay there or snap back?
Nothing while braking. Perfect. I even inspected the brakes after returning home from Colorado just to be sure I had plenty of pad life after driving in the mountains. I actually have to hold the wheel to the left a bit to keep straight under acceleration. Wheel stays almost perfectly straight on a flat road while cruising and/or braking. I'm far from an expert on alignment but I am quite familiar with mechanical engineering and it seems to me like even a slight lateral offset acted upon by the squat of weight transfer to the rear axle assembly would cause an effect on the trajectory of the vehicle. Maybe even amplified by the front wheels being driven as well. Anyone more familiar with vehicle alignment who can make more sense of the specs I've attached please explain
 

Tripledave

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In my case and many others torque steer is caused by the increased angle of the CV axles. With Part time CV axles are not driven or turning.
That certainly makes sense. Perhaps a diff drop could partially remedy this issue as well? Part time would be great though, MPG may even improve a tick or two. Never really loved the idea of full time 4wd, I like the option to decide when and if I need 4wd
 

Taco2Cruiser

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I've fixed torque steering issues on a couple LCs, my 200 being one of them. I agree with @TexAZ that a good possibility is your steering linkage has worn itself into an angle that is now much different because the lift, changed the angles.

For my personal 200, the front right tire was compromised from ply steer, but since the owner just accepted it for tens of thousands of miles, it wore in the outter ball joints to also create a pull. New tires helped, adding caster to left side help with road crown, replacing outer tie rods was the real issue along with the bad tire.

In an effort to save you money from replacing unnecessary things, I would first start off by saying that Slee set up your alignment for very flat roads, if you live in an area where the roads have a good crown to them, that truck is going to always pull right. But they don't know where you are going to drive, so I can't blame them, just something to keep in mind.

Also, your rear end is not causing any torque steer (I could go into that more if you want)

If it was me I would do this, in steps, and stop at each step if it works:
1) Swap your front tires left and right, see if you pull the other direction, I'm sure it isn't this, but it should be the first thing you do.

2) have Slee or any alignment shop add +.5 degree of caster to the front left wheel.

3) replace outer tie rods $40 each for OEM, (inner tie rods is you have the money, $200 each for OEM)

If you don't have the ability to do it yourself, just let me know.

Here are the stock alignment specs:
Front Caster
2.9±0.75

Front Camber
0.13±0.75

Front Toe (degrees)
0.24°±0.16°

Front Toe (inches)
0.12±0.08"

I did +1 degree added caster to my front left, so +1.1 front left, +.1 front right.

Was perfect for Texas and Georgia road crown after I replaced tie rods.

But yea, I say it was old steering linkage that was happy where it was, now it's not where it was, so it's not happy. I know it sounds trivial, but I can make you car the most unsafe thing in the world, with a couple specific changes to your alignment cams, know that very small changes, make very big changes in feel.
 
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Tripledave

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I've fixed torque steering issues on a couple LCs, my 200 being one of them. I agree with @TexAZ that a good possibility is your steering linkage has worn itself into an angle that is now much different because the lift, changed the angles.

For my personal 200, the front right tire was compromised from ply steer, but since the owner just accepted it for tens of thousands of miles, it wore in the outter ball joints to also create a pull. New tires helped, adding camber to left side help with road crown, replacing outer tie rods was the real issue along with the bad tire.

I an effort to save you money from replacing unnecessary things, I would first start off by saying that Slee set up your alignment for very flat roads, if you live in an area where the roads have a good crown to them, that truck is going to always pull right. But they don't know where you are going to drive, so I can't blame them, just something to keep in mind.

Also, your rear end is not causing any torque steer (I could go into that more if you want)

If it was me I would do this, in steps, and stop at each step if it works:
1) Swap your front tires left and right, see if you pull the other direction, I'm sure it isn't this, but it should be the first thing you do.

2) have Slee or any alignment shop add +.5 degree of camber to the front left wheel.

3) replace outer tie rods $40 each for OEM, (inner tie rods is you have the money, $200 each for OEM)

If you don't have the ability to do it yourself, just let me know.

Here are the stock alignment specs:
Front Caster
2.9±0.75

Front Camber
0.13±0.75

Front Toe (degrees)
0.24°±0.16°

Front Toe (inches)
0.12±0.08"

I did +1 degree added camber to my front left, so +1.1 front left, +.1 front right.

Was perfect for Texas and Georgia road crown after I replaced tie rods.

But yea, I say it was old steering linkage that was happy where it was, now it's not where it was, so it's not happy. I know it sounds trivial, but I can make you car the most unsafe thing in the world, with a couple specific changes to your alignment cams, know that very small changes, make very big changes in feel.
As I read this I am reminded once again of the wealth of knowledge that is simply a question away. Before I even start to address these issues, please accept a thank you for taking time to explain with real data and experience.

As I do live in Texas, the roads are indeed crowned quite steeply in most areas. Dallas/Ft Worth to be specific, too bad (or good for you) you're not local or we would definately be discussing/testing this in person. Thanks for the offer sir.

I am noticing different wear patterns on my front tires also as I stare at them while typing.

98k on the truck when the work was done, definately wear to the outer if not the inner tie rods as you said. Shouldn't be a big deal to change outer rod ends like you said.

I'll start experimenting and changing items in the order suggested. Once I get the outer rods replaced, should I go back to factory alignment specs plus .5deg camber on left front until it feels right or should I simply have the shop add +.5deg camber to left front leaving other settings alone?

Which brings me to another question...... Anyone know of alignment shops in DFW that are trustworthy and knowledgeable enough to align as needed?

Thanks again Taco
 

Taco2Cruiser

Rob @ BudBuilt Off Road
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As I read this I am reminded once again of the wealth of knowledge that is simply a question away. Before I even start to address these issues, please accept a thank you for taking time to explain with real data and experience.

As I do live in Texas, the roads are indeed crowned quite steeply in most areas. Dallas/Ft Worth to be specific, too bad (or good for you) you're not local or we would definately be discussing/testing this in person. Thanks for the offer sir.

I am noticing different wear patterns on my front tires also as I stare at them while typing.

98k on the truck when the work was done, definately wear to the outer if not the inner tie rods as you said. Shouldn't be a big deal to change outer rod ends like you said.

I'll start experimenting and changing items in the order suggested. Once I get the outer rods replaced, should I go back to factory alignment specs plus .5deg camber on left front until it feels right or should I simply have the shop add +.5deg camber to left front leaving other settings alone?

Which brings me to another question...... Anyone know of alignment shops in DFW that are trustworthy and knowledgeable enough to align as needed?

Thanks again Taco
Anytime man, we all are constantly learning, and I doing so, and we all find our own way to tackle issues. At the end of this, you should be aligning like a champ.

So while I don't know a good shop in DFW, look for a place that does semi-truck frame repair and alignments. Good heavy truck shops that align off of tape measure and string, give far better alignments than any $80,000 machine. The reason is that you almost never get more than the kid who graduated from oil changes that does the alignments. He usually doesn't know anything more than to "make the red boxes turn green." Even Toyota doesn't hire an ASE certificed mechanic to do something like an alignment, so those guys don't understand the theory behind alignment, not their fault, shops just need cheap labor sometimes. Frame repair guys typically do. Also, whenever a change is made on an alignment cam, the vehicle needs to be rolled forward and back, easy on the old way, not going to happen on the electronic way because they have a set time to spend on you, and if you don't like it, 50/50 chance you won't go back for them to do it again anyway.

That said, always try alignment first from stock specs. If you still drift to an undesired direction, then to make a car pull the way you want it to, you add positive camber to the side you want to pull. Do it in half degree increments, and don't go past +1.75 degrees. (That number is my own, I have never had a tire wear irregularly with that much camber) All this is called is "cross camber." Frame shop guys know what you'll be talking about.

Alignment is so much technical info, it almost becomes an art, but it is still just basic geometry. While I enjoy writing to help the group, there is so much that I can make volumes of material. If you want more on how to do this yourself, PM me and we can just talk about it.

Sorry @Markuson I know I need to get my alignment thread done like I keep saying, I just know I need pictures, and with the 200 getting skids, I had to put it on hold.
 
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Hey @Tripledave, did you ever resolve this? I have a very similar pull with my newly lifted 200. In my case I need to hold the steering wheel slightly to the left (at about the 11:30 mark) when going down the road, but under acceleration it pulls to the right, and when letting off the gas I'm pulling back to the left.

I need to swap the rear springs so I'm hopeful this clears up after I swap them (and hopefully the truck is level again) but I have a suspicion there may be something else at play here. (FWIW I have about 1.25-1.5" of cruiser lean in the rear and 0.75" in the front... Tough Dog said to put the taller spring on the driver's side, which I did, but the taller OEM Toyota spring was on the passenger side so I think for the 2013 model year they were incorrect)

@Taco2Cruiser, can you elaborate on "Also, your rear end is not causing any torque steer (I could go into that more if you want)"? Or at least can you describe how you would know if you did need a rear panhard rod?
 

Taco2Cruiser

Rob @ BudBuilt Off Road
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Hey @Tripledave, did you ever resolve this? I have a very similar pull with my newly lifted 200. In my case I need to hold the steering wheel slightly to the left (at about the 11:30 mark) when going down the road, but under acceleration it pulls to the right, and when letting off the gas I'm pulling back to the left.

I need to swap the rear springs so I'm hopeful this clears up after I swap them (and hopefully the truck is level again) but I have a suspicion there may be something else at play here. (FWIW I have about 1.25-1.5" of cruiser lean in the rear and 0.75" in the front... Tough Dog said to put the taller spring on the driver's side, which I did, but the taller OEM Toyota spring was on the passenger side so I think for the 2013 model year they were incorrect)

@Taco2Cruiser, can you elaborate on "Also, your rear end is not causing any torque steer (I could go into that more if you want)"? Or at least can you describe how you would know if you did need a rear panhard rod?
Sure thing. Torque steer is caused by more torque being delivered to one side of a car than the other. It is common in front wheel drive cars that have unequal drive shaft length, like our front ends. But the rear end of our trucks have equal length shafts, in fact the 200 series is the first land cruiser to have equal length rear shafts. 100 series and before had varying different lengths of left and right rear drive shafts. So that is why the REAR 200 axle CANNOT create torque steer.

Now if you want to talk about what the rear axle of a 200 series can do to steering when under acceleration its called "thrust angle." Thrust angle is a line drawn front the center of the rear axle strait forward at a 90˚, the trick is to get that imaginary line that shoots perfectly strait forward of the axle to also be perfectly strait forward on the truck itself.

That said, you could off center our rear axle quite a few degrees from a 3" lift and you won't see any real help. You simply have a bad front end alignment. Most alignment shops don't want to start over with your cams, so they just move one or two around till they get green lights, aaaannnd good!

I'd bet you don't have enough cross camber to the left to compensate for road crown (which the old timers say you can't plan for, but I say at least try) and some cross caster to the right.

Also for your Tough Dog suspension, they are Australian, when they said driver side, they meant our passenger side or fuel tank side. For all 200s, the taller rear springs always goes on the fuel tank side, Australian driver side, American passenger side.
 
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I know for my 200's Tough Dog setup, I put the springs on the side as they were labeled and I have no lean. Keep in mind, however, I have heavy springs.
 

Taco2Cruiser

Rob @ BudBuilt Off Road
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I know for my 200's Tough Dog setup, I put the springs on the side as they were labeled and I have no lean. Keep in mind, however, I have heavy springs.
Did that mean the taller one when on your passenger side?

I had a little bit of lean with the front right low, but it was my rear left shock was set 20 psi more than the rest, all good now that I put my fronts to 300psi and the rears to 305 psi.
 
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Did that mean the taller one when on your passenger side?

I had a little bit of lean with the front right low, but it was my rear left shock was set 20 psi more than the rest, all good now that I put my fronts to 300psi and the rears to 305 psi.
I didn't note a size difference. Not saying there wasn't one, I just didn't notice and went with the labeling.
 
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They are labeled RH and LH. The RH spring was 30mm taller. There was a sticker on the springs that said "Instructions are for Australian models. For US models, install the taller spring on the driver's side!" When I removed the old springs (which had 65k on them), the taller Toyota spring was on the RH side. But when I specifically emailed Tough Dog they said:

"In RHD vehicles, the Driver sits there so a slightly higher coil is fitted to cope with the slightly higher weight. Usually the higher coil goes with the Driver side, so in the US the LHD side would take the higher coil. Coil rates as the same for both sides".

So when I did the install I put the taller spring on the LH (drivers) side. Tony, if you didn't put the RH spring on the LH side like me, that explains why you are level and I am not.

I need to crawl under the truck and measure the installed spring height on each side. Assuming a ~20mm difference in compressed height swapping the springs should get me perfectly level (i.e. reduce the LH side by 20mm and increase the RH side by 20mm is ~1.5"). Most likely will be labor day weekend before I can actually swap them though.

(I'm assuming btw that most of my front difference is due to the rear spring height being incorrect and that it will level out when I swap the rears... if not then that will be my next issue).

 
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