This came with my China winch (1 Viewer)

[Broski]

Negative, solenoid function does not serve the same purpose as a disconnect switch at the battery. There is still a fatty wire routed from the battery to the solenoid pack, which is usually located in an exposed (to front-end damage) and accessible (to tweakers) location. An under-hood (remote) solenoid is helpful, but even then, solenoids can fail in the closed position and make for a rather uncomfortable situation when winching. A disco switch addresses both issues, irrespective of solenoid pack location.

Every situation is different, I do not DD my Reg, less likely to get front end damage, I park it in the shop in my back yard, not accessible to tweakers. If i smash it past my front bumper enough to short the winch cable I have much more to worry about.
This is my last post on the subject. Cheers

 

[greentruck]

SNIP
The reason the HF and other China winches have the overload circuit is because their motors have inferior winding's which causes them to heat up.
SNIP

Yeah, overload circuit is a better name for it than circuit breaker. You need to reset a circuit breaker, while the HF thingie is automatic. It's some sort of thermal switch from the way I hear it described.

As for it being necessary due to "inferior windings" I kinda doubt that. It's more a keep people out of trouble circuit. All planetary gear winches suffer from the same design weakness of concentrating a lot of energy in a very small, unventilated space. It heats up like a starter, except a starter is an intermittent load vs winching. Some other recent winches have basically the same circuit. You want to avoid getting things too hot, regardless of the quality of your windings. Fewer unhappy customers.

 

[NorCal97]

Every situation is different, I do not DD my Reg, less likely to get front end damage, I park it in the shop in my back yard, not accessible to tweakers. If i smash it past my front bumper enough to short the winch cable I have much more to worry about.
This is my last post on the subject. Cheers

Copy that, appreciate your position and rationale. I'm considering the more generic DD and related advice for folks new to winches and their installation.

PS: I'd have a very hard time NOT DD'ing that sweet rig of yours.

 

[BILT4ME]

Look I don't want to piss in anybody's Cheerios. The first diagram is from Warn winches the biggest name in the which industry. If you look at the diagram the main power go's to the solenoid the solenoid only lets power go to winch when you hit the switch so in essence the solenoid does the same thing as a cut off switch. If you feel you need two cut off switch's by all means have at it.
Just like the main power that go's to your starter it's the big a** cable that go's from the battery directly to the solenoid on the starter without a fuse or cut off switch
The reason the HF and other China winches have the overload circuit is because their motors have inferior winding's which causes them to heat up.
Wheeling in the Sierras like I do you are often on the side of a mountain. I for one don't want to wait for the winch to cool down to be pulled to safe spot. If your stuck in a mud hole in the flat lands I'm sure it's a non issue.
If my winch wasn't surrounded by 1/4" plate and was the first thing to take a hit I may reconsider.
All of this is JMHO
Everybody need to set there Reg up how they feel most comfortable.
That being said I truly feel that if Warn thought a fuse was necessary it would be in the diagram. Cheers

You're not pissing in Cheerios. You're presenting a different point of view. I actually appreciate it, as my use of a winch is VERY different (and much less) than yours.

I have questioned how HF supplies their stuff and it's good to see how Warn expects them to be wired.

We could go all National Electric Code here and really go off the deep end. I'd get lost pretty quickly, but some of the spark chasers get really carried away.

Mine made me think about it because I have my switch box and winch hanging right out front, and after having rear ended an Explorer, it really made me think about it. It didn't hurt my truck at all, and didn't poke the winch through the back door, because it was at like 10 MPH and I was so hard in the brakes that my bumper met evenly with the stock Explorer bumper.

I also only paid $400 for my winch. I'm guessing yours was WAY more than that. I just don't want to watch my truck burn because the hood is buggered and I can't get to the cables to cut them in the event of a collision. Mine is a DD for 15K-20K per year, so again, my use is very different. I doubt I will ever need my winch for a "life threatening" pull.

 

[ppc]

Yeah, overload circuit is a better name for it than circuit breaker. You need to reset a circuit breaker, while the HF thingie is automatic. It's some sort of thermal switch from the way I hear it described.

As for it being necessary due to "inferior windings" I kinda doubt that. It's more a keep people out of trouble circuit. All planetary gear winches suffer from the same design weakness of concentrating a lot of energy in a very small, unventilated space. It heats up like a starter, except a starter is an intermittent load vs winching. Some other recent winches have basically the same circuit. You want to avoid getting things too hot, regardless of the quality of your windings. Fewer unhappy customers.

The technical term is Duty Cycle which encompasses a number of factors related to the design of a product. It's not just the windings in the motor but how much heat gets generated versus the capability to dissipate that heat over time. That takes into account internal/external wiring, strength/chemistry of materials, breakdown of lubricants and cable braking and ability to sustain loads.

In the case of the HF/Badlands winches the implementations of multiple "automatic breakers" is just a cheap ass way to compensate for a low cost design of a product with a very low duty cycle. It's more about limiting warranty claims than safety.

Everyone should be aware of the capabilities/limitations of their equipment but in an emergency situation I want to be in control. In my opinion an audible warning device would be more appropriate.

 

[Azca]

Ok, point of clarification here. The overloads (OL) do not protect against a short circuit or accidental ground. The circuit breaker, or fuse, will protect for both, to some degree. Specifically, and it is going to get boring for some:

Overload devices use some method, such as a bi-metallic strip, to protect against extended overloads. As the bi-metal heats, it distorts and eventually opens. How quickly this opens will depend on factors such as the ambient temperature and the amount of overload. Larger load = More heat = quicker response. An overload's main purpose is to protect motor windings and circuit conductors against insulation breakdown. (a motor winding is a conductor and is insulated) for every 10 degree rise in conductor temperature, you cut the life expectancy of a conductor in half.

Fuses and breakers (there are exceptions here) generally will provide both OL protection and short circuit protection. Short circuit protection creates a significant amount of heat and damage and the devices, where correctly applied, should clear these faults very rapidly, within fractions of a second.

An overload device cannot distinguish between a short circuit or overload. It will have to heat up to clear and melting or distorting the bi metallic strip takes time. In the amount of time it takes to open an OL on a short circuit, it is too late, the damage has been done.

Fuses, and to a lesser degree, breakers, have different current limiting characteristics when clearing shorts. A fast acting fuse (for those in construction or electrical design think Class T) are great for protecting circuits because they react so quickly. The problem is these types of fuses are horrible for motors. Motors have high inrush currents, in some cases as high as 1,000% of the rating of the motor (we use 600% as a general rule) for up to a few seconds when a motor starts, depending on the type of motor and load being served. A fast acting fuse will see these normal loads as a short and open causing nuisance tripping. On the other hand, a time delay fuse such as an RK-5 fuse (again, construction) is great for motors because it still has short circuit protection but is designed to "ride out" this high inrush current. The trade off is, under a short circuit condition, it takes longer to open which in turn allows for more damage.

So, as with everything in life, there are trade offs here. You would need to decide what is more important to you. For me (and only me) electrical fires are very frequent. Cheap motors and equipment only exacerbate the chances of a fire (I did own a HF winch and understand buying one). I want something to help protect my vehicle and whoever is driving or riding in it. If I blow a fuse, it is a very quick and easy replacement.

Overloads need to cool down before they will close and will take time but will not protect against accidental shorts which, in my mind, is more dangerous than the inconvenience of waiting to clear the OL. (Cold water on the OLs can reduce the time significantly).

Our car batteries can put out enormous amounts of energy in short order. A cheapo car battery will but out over 300 amps if shorted. Good, high current batteries will put out more than twice this and industrial batteries can easily provide 3,000 amps of short circuit current. The current can be, and is, devastating to an electrical system if not controlled.

For emergency conditions, no overload or short circuit protection may be warranted but, that is extreme condition IMO. (we see this for fire pumps for large buildings or high rises where they do not have overload protection but, they still must have short circuit protection.) In these cases, they feel that sacrificing the equipment is less of a concern than loss of the building or, more importantly, loss of life.

Not trying to sway anyone's opinion here, just making an observation and stating my opinion and not in any way trying to say any viewpoint here is wrong. For me, the risk of fire and resultant loss of the rig is much more likely than the failure of the winch to operate immediately due to the clearing of an overcurrent device. Again, only my opinion.

I can continue on this topic for hours. Each of us needs to make up their own minds as to what we feel is more important. Again, just like tires or vehicles, EVERYTHING is a trade off....

 

[ChaseTruck]

... but I had thoughts about this winch sitting on the very front of my truck and if I poked that winch into the rear of a car or a door of a car due to "unforeseen circumstances", I am concerned about the terminals being right out there exposed to be instantly shorted out and blowing up my battery or starting the truck on fire.

I like the idea of the disconnect at the battery to keep them disabled until I am in an area that I may need the winch. I would see that kind of like locking hubs. There when you need them, but otherwise disconnected.

In all our trail trucks, I have the winches disconnected on the road/highway. Secondary winch terminals ready to go, wing nuts for the posts, connections for the positive cable made at the trailhead while/after airing down - if it's a trail where I expect to need the winch. If not, I'll leave it as is, doesn't take much time to connect the positive cable. On the highway I don't want a hot 1/0 cable down there in the front.

 

[Azca]

Sorry, rushed the description above and my grammar leaves MUCH to be desired.

 

[ChaseTruck]

Sorry, rushed the description above and my grammar leaves MUCH to be desired.

Ok, we'll let that slide. This time.

The more pressing question is: with this background info and knowledge - what do you use?

 

[BILT4ME]

Sorry, rushed the description above and my grammar leaves MUCH to be desired.

I told them that SOMEONE would go all NEC on them........

 

[Grandlooser]

Ok, we'll let that slide. This time.

The more pressing question is: with this background info and knowledge - what do you use?

I'm guessing a come along.

 

[Azca]

I'm guessing a come along.

That too! Fuses. I love fuses. They protect far better than breakers but, there is a trade off. A breaker can be quickly reset, not so with fuses. Specifically I have 150A mega fuses by Littlefuse. That was for the HF and I am using those temporarily for my new winch with the same fuse. I can't say if I am in the ballpark on the size as I did this for that winch a long time ago and don't recall how I arrived at that number. I will say I always err on the conservative side and have 3 spare fuses in my off road kit... This winter I will be redoing all my electrical goodies on the truck as I will be able to take my time to get it right. I need to research the new winch to size the new protective devices.

 

[Azca]

Ok, we'll let that slide. This time.

The more pressing question is: with this background info and knowledge - what do you use?

Also, I am NOT an authority on vehicular DC electrical systems by any stretch of the imagination, low voltage AC systems of 1,000 volts or less is the world I live in so, take any advice I offer accordingly.

 

[Azca]

I told them that SOMEONE would go all NEC on them........

Guilty as charged. I also teach for one of the local apprenticeship programs so, I tend to offer opinions, even when they are not wanted.

 

[LINUS]

As a possible work-around that’s my way to do winch power - I TIG’ed a small SS bar-stock/dowel to a SS bolt for my designated power-tap for the winch.

Call it the mother of all wing-nuts. —— I keep it under dielectric grease & just hand-tight.

That way I can kill power to the winch if anything goes sideways - but I also run Boat=Steer Terminal Tamers (milled copper blocks, 6 or 8 individual bolts to connect ring terminals) — depending on Mini- or Fullsize.

They are sorta $$, but I esp love them from the marine world to using in the land rigs.

Here’s the main page if you care:

Boat Steering Solutions - Terminal Tamer

If you found us through the Ship Shape TV show, WELCOME!!! Boat Steering Solutions is SeaStar factory trained & authorized to remanufacture and service hydraulic steering systems.

boatsteer.com

I use the Mini-Tamers for the ‘Yotas

 

[Azca]

As a possible work-around that’s my way to do winch power - I TIG’ed a small SS bar-stock/dowel to a SS bolt for my designated power-tap for the winch.

Call it the mother of all wing-nuts. —— I keep it under dielectric grease & just hand-tight.

That way I can kill power to the winch if anything goes sideways - but I also run Boat=Steer Terminal Tamers (milled copper blocks, 6 or 8 individual bolts to connect ring terminals) — depending on Mini- or Fullsize.

They are sorta $$, but I esp love them from the marine world to using in the land rigs.

Here’s the main page if you care:

Boat Steering Solutions - Terminal Tamer

If you found us through the Ship Shape TV show, WELCOME!!! Boat Steering Solutions is SeaStar factory trained & authorized to remanufacture and service hydraulic steering systems.

boatsteer.com

I use the Mini-Tamers for the ‘Yotas

OOOOHHHH I like! I had been trying to find something with more capacity than the mill spec battery terminals.

 

[LINUS]

OOOOHHHH I like! I had been trying to find something with more capacity than the mill spec battery terminals.

Exacto - mongo what I was moving up from & being a boat owner when I hit on these it was a “eureka!” -moment for me too - I have a fullsize set on battery #1 & a Mini on battery #2in the boat.

I can link some brush-on rubber coating too if you like, I buy it in red & just use it on the positive block pre-install & getting it greased.

 

[Azca]

Exacto - mongo what I was moving up from & being a boat owner when I hit on these it was a “eureka!” -moment for me too - I have a fullsize set on battery #1 & a Mini on battery #2in the boat.

I can link some brush-on rubber coating too if you like, I buy it in red & just use it on the positive block pre-install & getting it greased.

Absolutely! I initially thought of using colored heat shrink and cutting sections out where necessary to allow for connectivity. The coating may be a better idea. Thank you!

 

[LINUS]

Absolutely! I initially thought of using colored heat shrink and cutting sections out where necessary to allow for connectivity. The coating may be a better idea. Thank you!

Here you go:

Liquid Electrical Tape - LET

Starbrite quality care products since 1973 for: Automotive, Marine, Aviation, Motorcycle, Powersports, Outdoor Power Equipment, ATV, Snowmobile, Home Care, Outdoor Furniture, Farm Implement.

www.starbrite.com

I have the 4oz red - I don’t see the need to cover the ground, but they have it all colors.

 

[maxamillion2345]

No but really

But also this.