Theory on preventing frame cracks around steering box and panhard bracket (3 Viewers)

[leonard_nemoy]

I have this crack issue on my 96 year, and this thread has made me realize fixing this properly is a lot more complex than I'd anticipated. From some of the people in this thread who know a lot more about welding and fabrication than me (IE, anything at all), what would you suggest is the best way to fix this, for the long term?

I want to keep my 80 for another 20+ years. I was just going to attack the crack with a welder, but now I'm reconsidering that. What's the best way to do a 20+ year repair on this? I don't want something that mitigates the issue for a couple of years, but makes a much bigger problem in the long run.

Like @SNLC said, take it to a professional and have it done right using the repair plates offered by delta vs.

Done right in this case would include removing enough parts to gain adequate working room for a proper repair.

Followed by a proper cleaning of the cracks and area to be welded.

Followed by grinding out the cracks and drilling holes at the end of the cracks.

Than it would be best to have all the cracks tig welded and ground smooth.

Finally you would want the repair plates tig or mig welded onto the frame to strengthen and reinforce the repair.

Oh yeah, don't forget a quality paint job.

 

[SNLC]

I had most of these cracks, at different times. After the second time, a gusset was installed which I now put on any 80 we are fixing. This is the one Kevin Patterson came up with for mine:
View attachment 2703364

After seeing a frame cut up and getting a good look at how many different layers of steel are layered into this section of the frame, I don’t think it’s a lack of structure. It’s a lack of completed welds. I’m sure they had their reasons; ease of production, heat affected zones, access, etc., but the problem seems to come from the forces this area of the structure sees on a regular basis.

Put a gopro under the front pointed at the front axle, panhard, steering (box included), suspension and knuckles.

Then go run it hard, best would be high speed in the desert or dunes. From my experience this is harder on the Cruiser and it’s components than rock crawling. Not to say you couldn’t do the same experiment rock crawling, especially in the 37+” rubber category.

Anyways, point is, the steering, panhard, suspension, knuckles ect-all is under a massive amount of stress. High speed desert/dunes and rock crawling with big rubber is going to stress it all the most. If you take videos of this or go find them on youtube you will see just how much stress under these conditions.

I flog mine hard, not my first one to flog and it is holding up. I feel like if I want to keep flogging it and even flog it harder, for me that is high speed more than rock crawling in the Cruiser I am talking about, then I need to beef it up. Especially as I add weight and it gets much heavier.

Fish plate around steering box, gusset the knuckle balls on the axle and on down the rabbit hole it goes.

There is definitely something to be said about an 80 you keep low on 33’s or 35’s and put really nice suspension under it. All rear seats out, no heavy bumpers, sliders, belly skids, winches or any of that. Plenty of power because it’s kept light with smaller tires. I had mine like this at one point and it ripped hard on the street, on the highway and especially in the desert.

Just depends what you want to do with your Cruiser.

Cheers

 

[richardlillard1]

Put a gopro under the front pointed at the front axle, panhard, steering (box included), suspension and knuckles.

Then go run it hard, best would be high speed in the desert or dunes. From my experience this is harder on the Cruiser and it’s components than rock crawling. Not to say you couldn’t do the same experiment rock crawling, especially in the 37+” rubber category.

Anyways, point is, the steering, panhard, suspension, knuckles ect-all is under a massive amount of stress. High speed desert/dunes and rock crawling with big rubber is going to stress it all the most. If you take videos of this or go find them on youtube you will see just how much stress under these conditions.

I flog mine hard, not my first one to flog and it is holding up. I feel like if I want to keep flogging it and even flog it harder, for me that is high speed more than rock crawling in the Cruiser I am talking about, then I need to beef it up. Especially as I add weight and it gets much heavier.

Fish plate around steering box, gusset the knuckle balls on the axle and on down the rabbit hole it goes.

There is definitely something to be said about an 80 you keep low on 33’s or 35’s and put really nice suspension under it. All rear seats out, no heavy bumpers, sliders, belly skids, winches or any of that. Plenty of power because it’s kept light with smaller tires. I had mine like this at one point and it ripped hard on the street, on the highway and especially in the desert.

Just depends what you want to do with your Cruiser.

Cheers

I’m not sure why you quoted my post specifically, but I completely agree that the frame sees a lot of force; more so in the area around the steering box/panhard mount than most other places. No need for a GoPro to see that. When you apply those forces to partially welded things like the panhard mount, steering box bolt sleeves, etc., it’s going to eventually wiggle a crack into forming.

After the section I posted was repaired, it cracked again, this time on the inboard side, which was then welded up and most recently, the tube crossmember was trying to shear off the frame on the passenger side, which required yet another repair. If it cracks again, plates will be added to the frame.

Mine sees what I would define as heavy use; southern Utah 20 or so times, the hammers, and of course my job which is to take it out and run routes in the Tonto National Forest twice per week. The last time I bothered to calculate, the truck had something like 25,000 miles of dirt on it. The fenders are falling apart, the core support is cracked, and I’m sure more if I looked hard enough. I’m at the point now where frame cracks and other carnage don’t really surprise me.

One thing of note…the four bent front housings I’ve seen haven’t been at the knuckle ball. They were further inboard, typically directly under the spring perch as the truck appears to use the bump stop as a fulcrum point. Or bent backwards at the diff after hitting a light pole in a parking lot, but that’s a different story.

 

[jonheld]

FWIW both my 91 FJ80 and 97 LX450 cracked in exactly the same spots. It is definitely an 80 Series "feature".

 

[COYS]

Thanks to jp and others for partaking in this thread as preventing frame cracks is certainly a point of interest for me.

Have any of you taken a look at Delta's solution for this? I bought it, but wanna noodle on whether I actually use it or not.

Delta Vehicle Systems - DeltaVS Frame Supports - Weld It Yourself Kit

Frames crack, we fix

www.deltavs.com

 

[Delta VS]

Thanks to jp and others for partaking in this thread as preventing frame cracks is certainly a point of interest for me.

Have any of you taken a look at Delta's solution for this? I bought it, but wanna noodle on whether I actually use it or not.

Delta Vehicle Systems - DeltaVS Frame Supports - Weld It Yourself Kit

Frames crack, we fix

www.deltavs.com

what do you want to noodle on?

 

[jpoole]

Do you not currently have cracks and are you considering adding this as "PM" essentially? Is the noodling on doing this now vs. waiting until cracks form?

I'd lean towards not doing this as PM as it's pretty easy to inspect for and see cracks in the likely places where they can form. Waiting keeps the original finishes/etc. intact for as long as possible, maybe indefinitely if you get lucky. The only case where I may do this as "PM" would be if you have lots of access in the area due to other work being done (engine out, body off, or similar) and/or you are preparing for pushing the limits of the stock setup with large tires plus hard wheeling/etc.

 

[BILT4ME]

what do you want to noodle on?

I have a couple questions so I could properly prepare. So, I'm gonna noodle (or needle, depending on POV)

1) Are these plasma cut or laser cut? The parts in the photos appear to be plasma cut and would require the welded areas to be ground clean prior to welding or they will end up with porosity in the welds. This may prove to be difficult for the average DIY to grind inside the holes prior to welding.

2) What material are these made of? This can affect my choice of welding materials (wire, gas, settings). Is this A-36? A1011 P&O?

3) How thick are these? Many of the DIY welders are only capable of welding 1/4" at a maximum.

I appreciate you guys making these, as, even though I have lots of access to manufacture things like this, I don't have time to take dimensions, lay it out, have parts cut, and then disassemble and weld together. I would be more likely to purchase these for my truck rather than make myself, just due to time and availability.

I assume these will come with instruction sheets about the grinding, welding materials required, and location directions. That can be a slippery slope.

 

[Delta VS]

I have a couple questions so I could properly prepare. So, I'm gonna noodle (or needle, depending on POV)

1) Are these plasma cut or laser cut? The parts in the photos appear to be plasma cut and would require the welded areas to be ground clean prior to welding or they will end up with porosity in the welds. This may prove to be difficult for the average DIY to grind inside the holes prior to welding.

2) What material are these made of? This can affect my choice of welding materials (wire, gas, settings). Is this A-36? A1011 P&O?

3) How thick are these? Many of the DIY welders are only capable of welding 1/4" at a maximum.

I appreciate you guys making these, as, even though I have lots of access to manufacture things like this, I don't have time to take dimensions, lay it out, have parts cut, and then disassemble and weld together. I would be more likely to purchase these for my truck rather than make myself, just due to time and availability.

I assume these will come with instruction sheets about the grinding, welding materials required, and location directions. That can be a slippery slope.

all good questions!

1. plasma cut for now. we grind the outside edges for you. any porosity introduced from welding inside the holes is negligible and on the order of porosity seen in Toyota's welds in various places on the frame. if someone wants to get anal about it, a flappy wheel on a die grinder/dremel will be the ticket. anybody doing this kind of welding should have that setup.

2. a36

3. .25

no instructions are included. as you say, that is a slippery slope. as "DIY" in the product name alludes to, it's up to you. I've installed about 10 sets in the shop with no issues, sent a whole bunch out and not heard anything back about fitment. one guy posted a pic on Facebook showing how far off his alignment of the plate was. still haven't figured out what happened there (he had to cut about 1" off the end of one of the plates to get it to line up). that is the single issue I've been made aware of so far.

 

[BILT4ME]

all good questions!

1. plasma cut for now. we grind the outside edges for you. any porosity introduced from welding inside the holes is negligible and on the order of porosity seen in Toyota's welds in various places on the frame. if someone wants to get anal about it, a flappy wheel on a die grinder/dremel will be the ticket. anybody doing this kind of welding should have that setup.

2. a36

3. .25

no instructions are included. as you say, that is a slippery slope. as "DIY" in the product name alludes to, it's up to you. I've installed about 10 sets in the shop with no issues, sent a whole bunch out and not heard anything back about fitment. one guy posted a pic on Facebook showing how far off his alignment of the plate was. still haven't figured out what happened there (he had to cut about 1" off the end of one of the plates to get it to line up). that is the single issue I've been made aware of so far.

Thank you!

I have done my initial weldment of my frame and am expecting to need these at some point in the future. Had these been available at that time, I definitely would have installed them.

I've become a little smarter in my years and it would cost me far more in time than what these cost to have shipped to my door.

 

[COYS]

Do you not currently have cracks and are you considering adding this as "PM" essentially? Is the noodling on doing this now vs. waiting until cracks form?

No visible cracks I can see at this time from the passenger side in the area shared by the OP.

I'd probably lean toward using the Delta weld on part if Delta was within shouting distance of me and offered to do the work. I don't think I really trust anyone locally to do this job right.

All I know is, while I'll never wheel or rock crawl my 80, I'd rather sell it before getting rid of my 37s at 104lbs per corner which means my frame will be under added stress for as long as I own it, avg 10k miles/yr.

 

[Bambusiero]

Lots of great thoughts here about how to reinforce & proper vs improper technique.
Let me suggest a very general shift in your mental picture of what's going on with stress cracks.
This or that - simplistic "rules" will lead you away from understanding.

The one main thing that causes stress cracking is : sudden change in stiffness, from flexible to very stiff - AKA stress risers.

What you want to do is distribute the stress over a large area in a gradual way. That way - the metal movement (there will be movement)is spread out.

Massively thick reinforcement welded directly to something much thinner - creates a sharp discontinuity in stiffness - a stress riser.
Brute force is not the best answer.

That is exactly what is being avoided when they weld across the frame on the diagonal, rather than straight across - and also - avoid a continuous weld all the way across the entire width, even though the weld line is diagonal - instead, weld in shorter sections, leaving large enough sections of un-interrupted virgin metal grain structure, so that the stress is distributed gradually back into the original structure.
Surprisingly thin things can carry very large loads - IF - the load is spread out evenly.

Suggestion : a multi-layered re-enforcement can accomplish the gradual spread of stress over large area.

 

[Delta VS]

avoid a continuous weld all the way across the entire width, even though the weld line is diagonal - instead, weld in shorter sections, leaving large enough sections of un-interrupted virgin metal grain structure, so that the stress is distributed gradually back into the original structure.

I would argue the same amount of force is being transferred no matter how much weld there is, so if that force has to be transferred over a smaller area (less welds), there will actually be much higher stress at each weld.

Now, if the weld is continuous, and a crack starts somewhere near/on said weld, that continuous weld will continuously crack...but that is a whole 'nother problem.

 

[DivByZero]

Since this thread is bumped again, I'd be interested in the brains trust opinion of another weld-on kit for this issue:

80/105 Landcruiser - Steering box brace kit | Rampt Customs

A known weak point in the 80/105 Series Landcruisers, is the chassis where the steering box mounts, as well as the top section of the panhard mount. We have seen many completely stock Cruisers with cracks in this area. Unfortunately once you start adding lifts, bigger tyres & some offroad abuse...

www.ramptcustoms.com.au

If I was in the US I'd probably be going Delta VS, but given these guys are local to me down under, and I've heard good things about their kit, I've been leaning towards them lately. That said though, I am thoroughly unqualified to evaluate pros and cons of this kit vs the one from Delta VS. Anyone with a good background in fabrication want to do a little comparison?

 

[BILT4ME]

Since this thread is bumped again, I'd be interested in the brains trust opinion of another weld-on kit for this issue:

80/105 Landcruiser - Steering box brace kit | Rampt Customs

A known weak point in the 80/105 Series Landcruisers, is the chassis where the steering box mounts, as well as the top section of the panhard mount. We have seen many completely stock Cruisers with cracks in this area. Unfortunately once you start adding lifts, bigger tyres & some offroad abuse...

www.ramptcustoms.com.au

If I was in the US I'd probably be going Delta VS, but given these guys are local to me down under, and I've heard good things about their kit, I've been leaning towards them lately. That said though, I am thoroughly unqualified to evaluate pros and cons of this kit vs the one from Delta VS. Anyone with a good background in fabrication want to do a little comparison?

Probably about the same.

However, before I would weld that on, I would grind EVERY point on those to about a 2" radius (that's 0.15 washing machines for those D.U.)

I think those reinforcing kits started in AUS and they weren't really available up here until now.

 

[Bambusiero]

I would argue the same amount of force is being transferred no matter how much weld there is, so if that force has to be transferred over a smaller area (less welds), there will actually be much higher stress at each weld.

Now, if the weld is continuous, and a crack starts somewhere near/on said weld, that continuous weld will continuously crack...but that is a whole 'nother problem.

And I agree with your valid counter point. So I guess it comes down to looking over the particular situation, trying to visualize the forces, and making a judgement call about what's the best structure to build - ya pays yer money and takes yer chances.

 

[mudgudgeon]

FWIW, this cracking isn't limited to any year or model, regardless of any changes Toyota made to the frame here.

My '91 HDJ81, and '02 HZJ105 both had a similar level of cracking.

Both had about 200k km on them when they came to me, and I put about 100k km on both with daily driving on country and city roads and motorways. As well as regular trips on dirt roads, and some hard wheeling on both vehicles.

One had 33"s most of the time, the other a mix of 33"s, and 35"s, so large tires aren't really a factor.

285/75r16 is the default tire of choice for Aussie cruisers that see dirt, and our vehicle registration laws limit tires to 33" on an 80, so very few ever have larger tires than that.

My opinion is that this area sees fatigue from constant vibration and frame flex in the area from bump steer and feedback from hitting potholes etc

I welded a couple of strips of 25x3mm flat bar across the base of the folded/pressed OEM brackets to gusset the corner after grinding and rewelding the cracks. (No pics )

 

[Dusten]

Bumping an old thread

@Delta VS do you have pics of these welded up completely?

 

[mudgudgeon]

Found the pics of what i did. This was my 105 series, so, essentially the same frame, but may be slightly different to the 80s.

Mine wasn't cracked at the steering box bolts like some.

Added some flat bar as a gusset / brace to help increase rigidity. Figured braving to the far edge of the frame had to be stiffer than the bracket finishing mid way across the flat frame rail.

 

[Dusten]

When looking I only have the small crack. But I'll dig deeper tomorrow when I pull the front end apart.