The 'Safer car' debate

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RUSH55 said:
I can't believe that there are fewer accidents per mile now than there were 20 years ago. Increase of population increases you law of averages.

Exacly my sentiment.

As far as truck drivers: isn't it scary they have TV in the cab?

And who really believes that a navigation screen to stare at while driving is adding safety when people are even distracted beyond belief by a stupid cell phone.............

I should add though, AZ drivers on average are more predictable (not necessarily more rational, but more predictable, even in the negative) than NE drivers. Even after 5 years here, there isn't a day we go "hhmmmmmm"................and every fall, their first snow seems to be the first snow EVER for all of them.........
 
I was listening to the truckers on 19 on the way home from Tucson and they call less than average drivers "steering wheel holders"!:D :bounce: :bounce:
 
Could be because Phx. and surrounding metropoli are set out in more of a grid fashion than any other city I know of. I could venture out to say that that's at least one good thing about Phoenix. Most other cities I've been too are like driving thru a plate of spaghetti.
As far as the argument, or gripe by Spike goes, I totally understand where you're coming from. But, I must say that the utopia you crave is unobtanium in the given direction we as a people are heading. Ive heard both sides of the safety issues debates time and time again. Someone was killed 'cause they were'nt wearing their seatbelt. Someone was killed 'cause they were wearing their seatbelt. Not having the seatbelt on saved their life. Having the seatbelt on saved their life. The air bag saved their life. The air bag tore their facial skin completely off and killed them. ABS saved them from rear ending someone. ABS caused them to not stop fast enough and rear end someone. A skid caused an accident, a controlled skid helped keep them from having an accident. And everything else in between. You hear alot of stories about teens getting killed because of foolish driving. Lotsa kids get tickets not long after getting a license. It's part of feeling out boundaries, it has to happen. If a teen gets two tickets between 16 and 18 or 19, you can't revoke their driving "privelidge" forever, it's part of life. But if there's a trend of some major violations, some drastic measures will have to take place. And drunk drivers should be penalized the worst. All drivers should be subject to the same rules as CDL drivers are in regards to DUI. These aspects could go on and on, you just have to find that happy medium. We may or may not be there yet, but hopefully we will be.
As far as vehicle manufacturers and gov. mandated features, if they feel it makes their product safer and worth more, and people are willing to fork out the cash, more power to them, they played their sucker card and won. Every single day people are paying outrageous amounts of money for vehicles that really aren't even a shadow of what their predicesors used to be in as far as real material worth. Back in the 60's and 70's everything was steel and cheap. Now everything is plastic and way expensive. WTF?? Then as the more technology advances and is used in the automotive industry, the less able we are to repair problems ourselves. You have to have high dollar diagnostic equipment just to first find out what's wrong, then special tools to fix it, not to mention an education at ITT Tech. So you don't and you take it to a shop. Well they've had to do pretty much all the abovementioned prerequisites, and since they have are now charging ~$90 an hour. Remember to include parts and systems that are designed to fail to help keep parts manufacturing going and the technicians paid.
And don't forget, as soon as you drive it off the lot, or the calender changes from Dec. to Jan. you loose thousands in resale value. And theeen, when most people buy new vehicles, they don't plan on keeping them around for too long. They want to sell them before they really loose their ass when the odometer reads 100K. So, you're paying more for a cheaper produced product that you don't plan on keeping. Hmmm.. must be all part of the grand master plan of the New American Century.
So that's it for now from a more philisophical standpoint rather than a technical one.
 
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For the most part I think that people drive like @&@&@&@& because there are no consequences. I'll speed a bit because I know that the chances of getting a ticket are pretty small. When I was in school in ABQ there was a big initiative to police traffic laws due to a major construction project on the I25/I40 interchange. I left before it was really put in to practice but people drove much like anywhere else, too fast, too close, unnecessary lane changes, etc. I came back to visit in the middle of this process and wow, what a difference. People were driving the speed limit, no aggressive driving habits. It was a bit of a treat really. As soon as the interchange was finished the initative was ended and now the way people drive has returned to its normal @&@&@&@&ty ways.

I have no solutions to any of this stuff, but people only respond to consequences that are enforced. Those of you with young kids know this. You want people to be safer drivers, hit them in the pocket book when they drive poorly.

As far as gov't mandated safety requirements I have another perspective. I think that you can do what ever you want as long as you are an adult and your actions do not effect me/the rest of us. Take helmets and motorcycles. Personally I don't care if you want to be an organ donor, but if the accidents you are in cost alot, then that will raise the costs of insurance for me due to the nature of 'pooled risk'. I don't know which is less expensive medically, helmet/ no helmet, but which ever costs me less I am for. Statistically speaking, helmets, airbags, crumple zones, safety glass, non-solid steering linkages, etc over whelmingly not only save lives, but reduce the severity of injury. If you choose not to wear a seat belt and are in an accident, your injuries will be worse (except in those freak, anecdotal 1 in a thousand/million accidents). This means that your medical care will be more. This means the insurance co. will pay out more. They then charge me more. That is no good.

Ross
 
RUSH55 said:
So, you're paying more for a cheaper produced product that you don't plan on keeping. Hmmm.. must be all part of the grand master plan of the New American Century.
So that's it for now from a more philisophical standpoint rather than a technical one.

The WalMartization of America (but Europe is not far behind). The disposable society.

Really, the only alternative is to buy a really solid vehicle and stick with it. Which most of us seem to be doing.

As far as not being able to service a vehicle yourself: we just brought the DD to the dealer because we can't find the handbrake switch (gets stuck in the cold, just needs to be lubricated). Plus, the vehicle sits so low, it really is a PITA to get underneath, and I wouldn't ask Michael to even try.

LOL: the dude that was supposed to drive the car into the dealer repair hall couldnt' drive stick shift up the little ramp. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
RUSH55 said:
I can't believe that there are fewer accidents per mile now than there were 20 years ago. Increase of population increases you law of averages. I've not been to Phoenix once in the last 20 times I've been down there, and not seen or had to deal with an accident. Maybe per capita, but not per mile.

It is not per mile, but per mile driven. So if there were for example 10 accidents per 1000 miles driven 20 years ago, and only 8 per 1000 miles today, it is less. There are more accidents today in total numbers, but when you take into account the increase in total miles driven, the rate is lower today than 20 years ago. Kind of an optical illusion sort of thing.

Ross
 
GeoRoss said:
I'll speed a bit because I know that the chances of getting a ticket are pretty small. Ross


thanks ross you just proved one of my points, your willing to speed cause you prolly wont get a ticket. ass backwards thought process dude, thanks for contributing to a more dangerous roadway.
heres a thought, how about you dont speed at all to help keep yourself out of a speed related accident, i dont really care about adults cause they are doing it, but the kids in the car are innocent and dont deserve it.
sorry ross i am not singling you out, i am mearely using your example as the way most folks think, "everyone else is doing it so it must be ok".
 
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Rhino
You're right, everyone shouldn't speed.

I should have been more specific about myself. I don't speed all the time, it is usually just to stay with traffic and it is never more than 5 mph over, and I often drive a bit below. I was just trying to make the point about enforcement, if I speed a bit I'm not worried about a ticket, partly because there is no enforcement, but also because I'm not racing through traffic.

I don't take it personally, but I have this urge to flip you off, but I'll resist ...
Oh, the hell with that :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Ross




RHINO said:
thanks ross you just proved one of my points, your willing to speed cause you prolly wont get a ticket. ass backwards thought process dude, thanks for contributing to a more dangerous roadway.
heres a thought, how about you dont speed at all to help keep yourself out of a speed related accident, i dont really care about adults cause they are doing it, but the kids in the car are innocent and dont deserve it.
sorry ross i am not singling you out, i am mearely using your example as the way most folks think, "everyone else is doing it so it must be ok".
 
GeoRoss said:
I don't take it personally, but I have this urge to flip you off, but I'll resist ...
Oh, the hell with that :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Ross

Rhino can take it! :D

Heck I get :flipoff2: :flipoff2: all the time because I wheel an Espresso Wagon and it makes me cry.
crying.bmp
 
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RHINO said:
thanks ross you just proved one of my points, your willing to speed cause you prolly wont get a ticket. ass backwards thought process dude, thanks for contributing to a more dangerous roadway.
heres a thought, how about you dont speed at all to help keep yourself out of a speed related accident, i dont really care about adults cause they are doing it, but the kids in the car are innocent and dont deserve it.
sorry ross i am not singling you out, i am mearely using your example as the way most folks think, "everyone else is doing it so it must be ok".



Dude, really! He drives a cruiser, how fast could he really be going? :flipoff2:



But I usually drive about 5mph over in town, thats' just going with the flow.
 
GeoRoss said:
Rhino


I don't take it personally, but I have this urge to flip you off, but I'll resist ...
Oh, the hell with that :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Ross


bwahaha !!! well like i said i wasnt being personal to you, just using your example. and BTW 5mph over around Phx will typically get you rear ended for going too slow.
 
MaddBaggins said:
Dude, really! He drives a cruiser, how fast could he really be going? :flipoff2:


i dont know man, we could go ask i teen a saw get hit a few weeks back in a crosswalk at a school zone, posted limit was and is 35 during session "while lights flash". they had one of those radar trailer things out there for a week and i STILL saw it flash 50+mph at cars wizzing by it.
yes guys, speed is one of my pet peeves. i believe speed to be at the root of nearly all crashes. if folks werent speeding they would run many less red lights, they wouldnt need to shuffle back and forth changinig lanes and they sure as heck wouldnt have such nasty crashes on the hiways.
 
Time for my .02

Lets see, in this thread so far we've addressed technophobia, social engineering, corporate greed, moral relativity in driving habits, big brother intrusions, traffic in foreign countries, validity of statistics........

What a crowd of deep thinkers!:cheers:

On the original question on what makes a safer car. I'll have to say that the driver is best safety device (or lack thereof) in any car. Every car has an expert driver in it, just ask them. We're all expert drivers here too aren't we? Truth is, the only "good" drivers out there are on the track. When faced with a split second driving decision, we have a good chance to blow it. But we all do the best we can. If your a safe driver you'll live longer (maybe). All the whiz bang control gadgets, air bags and full body foam restraints (ever see "Demolition Man") can, and do help. But they won't save you from the crack smoking Peterbuilt driver crossing the center lane. They won't help you much either if your reckless and/or stupid enough to drive through a red light or a railroad crossing. I think if your number is up, God doesnt care if if you have dual airbags or not. If stability control makes you a more confident driver then by all means write that next car payment check.

I think there is something to be said about driving a low tech vehicle that doesn't insulate you from the environment in front of the windshield as much as the the late model high dollar techno pods do. I think a lot of people get complacent thinking "I have this or that safety device I don't have to worry. Lets make a phone call!" or "Golly this GPS Nav setup is cool, how do I get to Avondale?" Meanwhile the VSC is desperately trying to keep them off the shoulder while speeding through an outside bank down grade turn. And since when did it become OK to put a TV in the dash?

I prefer an automobile that has a little character, visually and mechanically. My daily driver is 44 years old. It's just as reliable as any new car. Or more so because it's well maintained. Maintenance is another factor on the road. A lot of people drive junk and are oblivious to what a death trap they're riding in. Until that 50 mile donut spare finally gives out. I know my vehicle's limits because it's technology offers immediate feedback when you drive it recklessly. It has simple, functional and reliable systems. When repairs are needed, no computer interface is required. A vehicle should communicate in it's native mechanical tongue. A dialect that is dying with every generation of "advanced engineering" that comes along.

My driver has no crumple zones that I know of yet. No padded dash, no ABS or airbags. It's most high tech feature is the Alpine stereo. Or maybe the HEI ignition. Is it unsafe compared to a new car? Probably. It's quite possible I could die in an accident where another vehicle would have allowed me to walk away. It's also possible that it could drive right through a new beer can car and kill someone else. I might have a stroke 10 minutes from now too. Whaddya gonna do? Well, I'll keep driving as safe as possible and drive a vehicle within my means. That brings up another point. My gas mileage isn't stellar, but fortunately I don't have to pay for the privilege of owning a newer vehicle either. Low insurance and registration fees are nice. Instead of lining the government and insurance company pockets with my hard earned dollars.

I'm also of the opinion that the government should keep it's big fat greedy stinkin' tax wasting nose out of everyone's business. All the losers in Washington need to be forced to memorize the frickin Constitution and be tested yearly on it's content. It's not the Federal governments job to protect me from myself. If I don't want a car that has an air bag I shouldn't be made to pay for one if I want a new car. The free market works if allowed to. If you build it, they will come (if they want what you build).

So, again if an advanced engineered vehicle is your taste and keeps you comfortable and confident behind the wheel, go for it. Please try to watch the road instead of the dashboard data center. Just hang up and drive!

I'll keep my techno dollars on the desktop. Gonna get an MP3 player too. (but still have a turntable and 300+ Lp's):D
 
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Cdaniel said:
Lets see, in this thread so far we've addressed technophobia, social engineering, corporate greed, moral relativity in driving habits, big brother intrusions, traffic in foreign countries, validity of statistics........

What a crowd of deep thinkers!:cheers:

On the original question on what makes a safer car. I'll have to say that the driver is best safety device (or lack thereof) in any car. Every car has an expert driver in it, just ask them. We're all expert drivers here too aren't we? Truth is, the only "good" drivers out there are on the track. When faced with a split second driving decision, we have a good chance to blow it. But we all do the best we can. If your a safe driver you'll live longer (maybe). All the whiz bang control gadgets, air bags and full body foam restraints (ever see "Demolition Man") can, and do help. But they won't save you from the crack smoking Peterbuilt driver crossing the center lane. They won't help you much either if your reckless and/or stupid enough to drive through a red light or a railroad crossing. I think if your number is up, God doesnt care if if you have dual airbags or not. If stability control makes you a more confident driver then by all means write that next car payment check.

I think there is something to be said about driving a low tech vehicle that doesn't insulate you from the environment in front of the windshield as much as the the late model high dollar techno pods do. I think a lot of people get complacent thinking "I have this or that safety device I don't have to worry. Lets make a phone call!" or "Golly this GPS Nav setup is cool, how do I get to Avondale?" Meanwhile the VSC is desperately trying to keep them off the shoulder while speeding through an outside bank down grade turn. And since when did it become OK to put a TV in the dash?

I prefer an automobile that has a little character, visually and mechanically. My daily driver is 44 years old. It's just as reliable as any new car. Or more so because it's well maintained. Maintenance is another factor on the road. A lot of people drive junk and are oblivious to what a death trap they're riding in. Until that 50 mile donut spare finally gives out. I know my vehicle's limits because it's technology offers immediate feedback when you drive it recklessly. It has simple, functional and reliable systems. When repairs are needed, no computer interface is required. A vehicle should communicate in it's native mechanical tongue. A dialect that is dying with every generation of "advanced engineering" that comes along.

My driver has no crumple zones that I know of yet. No padded dash, no ABS or airbags. It's most high tech feature is the Alpine stereo. Or maybe the HEI ignition. Is it unsafe compared to a new car? Probably. It's quite possible I could die in an accident where another vehicle would have allowed me to walk away. It's also possible that it could drive right through a new beer can car and kill someone else. I might have a stroke 10 minutes from now too. Whaddya gonna do? Well, I'll keep driving as safe as possible and drive a vehicle within my means. That brings up another point. My gas mileage isn't stellar, but fortunately I don't have to pay for the privilege of owning a newer vehicle either. Low insurance and registration fees are nice. Instead of lining the government and insurance company pockets with my hard earned dollars.

I'm also of the opinion that the government should keep it's big fat greedy stinkin' tax wasting nose out of everyone's business. All the losers in Washington need to be forced to memorize the frickin Constitution and be tested yearly on it's content. It's not the Federal governments job to protect me from myself. If I don't want a car that has an air bag I shouldn't be made to pay for one if I want a new car. The free market works if allowed to. If you build it, they will come (if they want what you build).

So, again if an advanced engineered vehicle is your taste and keeps you comfortable and confident behind the wheel, go for it. Please try to watch the road instead of the dashboard data center. Just hang up and drive!

I'll keep my techno dollars on the desktop. Gonna get an MP3 player too. (but still have a turntable and 300+ Lp's):D

A-FRIGGIN-MEN Brother! You pretty much summed up my thought I was trying to convey in the original thread.

And it's not OK to put a TV in the dash... as a matter of fact According to ars 28-963 http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/00963.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS
It's "ILLEGAL"!
 
Yeah Cliff,
you drove it home for me too on several points. I'll leave it at that for now.
And in addition to congress needing to have the Contitution memorized, they should also be forced to read every bill that's introduced, and do away with beurocrats influencing votes on behalf of corporate interest. Frackitty frackers!!
Not beaurocrats.................lobyists!
 
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Cdaniel said:
I prefer an automobile that has a little character, visually and mechanically.

True dat, life's too short for a blaahmobil. Cruiser is my second purely for fun vehicle. Others were fun to drive (5 cyl. Passat back in Germany, a Honda in Connecticut, but they were also DDs). Current DD still is an undistinguished housewife SUV that I 'inherited' from my has-been husband, but since it is Japanese, it just doesn't quit, what can I do? But if it ever does go, we'll get a fun car for a DD.

Cdaniel said:
What a crowd of deep thinkers!:cheers:

Sorry for the diversion. I just stopped working and can't think that hard anymore ;)

But it is true, this forum has seen some amazing activity over the past few weeks. Good sign of vitality of the club! :beer: BTW, Michael wants to officially join. :idea:
 
DSRTRDR said:
...BTW, Michael wants to officially join. :idea:

No problem, just buy him a TOYOTA 4x4 and slap Phil a twenty!:D
 
RHINO said:
well there ya go again cliff, summing up what i was trying to say but in a less verbally destructive manner in which i prefer to communicate.

Destructive?
I'd say......................colorful!
 
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