Suspension Travel Comparison (1 Viewer)

[TeCKis300]

Been meaning to do this to get some objective numbers to compare ride height versus droop travel versus compression travel. What better to do on a rainy day.

Hope is that others may contribute and I'll update my table. We've known for awhile that some aftermarket suspensions increase what is already excellent droop travel. OEM spacer added to an otherwise stock LC or LX suspension increases travel at the front. Even though LC and LX differ in suspension fitted, the overall geometry and travel should be very similar or exactly the same.

All measurements are from wheel center to fender lip so they are comparable without tire variables

	Front Measured Ride Height	Front Measured Max Compression	Front Measured Max Droop	Front Compression /Droop Travel	Front Total Travel	Rear Measured Ride Height	Rear Measured Max Compression	Rear Measured Max Droop	Rear Compression /Droop Travel	Rear Total Travel
LX stock	N-19" H-21"	*16"	24.5"	N-3.5"/5.5" H-5.5"/3.5"	*8.5" or ~9"	N-20.75" H-23.1"	-	26.63"	N-4.12"/5.88" H-6.5"/3.5"	~10"
LX - .75F/.5R Sensor Lift, OEM Front Spacer @TeCKis300	N-19.8" H-21.8"	*16"	25.375"	N-4.4"/5.6" H-6.4"/3.6"	*9.4" or ~10"	N-21.25" H-23.63"	*17.5"	26.63"	N-4.6"/5.4" H-7"/3.0"	*9.1" or ~10"
LX AHC Long Travel - 1.5F/1R Sensor Lift, LC OEM Spacer (10mm) + stacked 6.5mm spacer, 1" extended AHC shocks	N-20.75" H-22.75"	*16"	25.75"	N-5"/5.5" H-7"/3.5"	10.5"	N-22" H-24.35"	*17.5"	27.375"	N-5.12"/5.88" H-7.5"/3.4"	11"
LX, AHC delete, Tundra arms, Kings suspension @turbo8	23"	14.5"	26"	8.5"/3"	~11.5"	23.5"		27.5"	5.5"/4"	~10.5"
LC, Tundra arms, Stock shocks, OME 440lb spring @WesSiler	-				~11"					~10"
LX AHC, 30mm shock spacer, Long Travel Camburg arms @1UZJ80N60			29"		12"

*Measured, Not Maxed Out​

Cross checking my measurements, it's reported that that the 200 chassis has 9" front and 10" wheel travel. About right given that I could mostly bottom things out but not hard bottom out. Particularly the rear as the chassis is just so slinky that my jack wasn't able to fully flex it out.

Looking at the numbers, the OEM setup has ride height dialed in with relatively little compressing travel. Compared to the stupendous droop travel. Stock ride height has 3" compression and 5.5" droop at the front. In general chassis tuning guides, it's recommended to always leave a good amount of droop travel. Doesn't seem like the 200 chassis is going to have that problem even lifted high.

Stuffed the fronts pretty good. Using AHC low to make the suspension as slinky as possible. Fingers gap clearances, but stuffing 35s she does.

Was on the stops but not hard so and there's a bit more travel.

Rear, wasn't able to fully peg it out with my floor jack.

Looks like another 1"++ travel here to the bump stop that I couldn't tap out

The interesting measurements should come front aftermarket suspensions and Tundra swaps. @bloc @WesSiler @mcgaskins I'm going to keep a tape measure in the rig so next time I'm out and have opportunities to bottom things out to take a measurement.

 

[bloc]

Great thread.

Does the LX have the cone shaped bump stop within the rear spring as well? That one contacts quickly but is quite compressible, and may be part of why you couldn’t quite get to the stop on the frame.

 

[TeCKis300]

Good point. I do think you're right that it stopped at the jounce stop within the coil spring. Pretty sure it's the same one found in the LC.

 

[Madtiger]

To quote:

To keep things under control and protected, a double A-arm front suspension with coil-over dampers replaces the previous version’s torsion bar system. This places the spring/damper units inside the confines of the upper and lower arms, and wheel travel increases from 7.9-in. to 9.05-in. As before, the solid axle rear suspension has four links, coil springs, and a Panhard rod. However, rear travel has increased to 9.45-in. with a total vertical articulation of 27.6-in.

 

[TeCKis300]

To quote:

To keep things under control and protected, a double A-arm front suspension with coil-over dampers replaces the previous version’s torsion bar system. This places the spring/damper units inside the confines of the upper and lower arms, and wheel travel increases from 7.9-in. to 9.05-in. As before, the solid axle rear suspension has four links, coil springs, and a Panhard rod. However, rear travel has increased to 9.45-in. with a total vertical articulation of 27.6-in.

Good find!

What's interesting is that on the 100-series, they often set their lift height by leftover droop. It's commonly prescribed to leave ~2" of droop. The 100-series starts with just under 4" of droop, so they're often challenged to lift much more than 2". Which is about what's recommended for most IFS lifts.

The 200-series changes the name of the game with more IFS travel, and what looks like 5.5" of droop travel at the front stock. And a heady 6.375" droop (~10" total IFS travel) with the simple addition of the OEM shock spacer.

I'm curious how Toyota measures travel. Whether it's just touching the jounce stops, or into them. It would seem like from my measurements, that it's just touching.

 

[hickuptruck]

I wonder how this compares to the Tundra suspension.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I wonder how this compares to the Tundra suspension.

Would be hard to compare, really apples to oranges. The frame of a Tundra is pretty flexy, where a 200 is not. It would be too hard to isolate the leaf springs to coil springs in our garages.

While not articulation, here is a demonstration of who flexy a Tundra frame (plus... try not to smile)


Suspension articulation is a hard thing to really measure. Going up an RTI ramp is not indicative of flexing out when on flat ground, or side slopping.

The fact that you can never shove tires inward as hard as when actually off road is why it’s hard to compare. Also, recently wheeling with a LX customer, having your sway bars still attached when wheeling was very apparent to me as a hindrance. Not a huge one, but it felt a lot like a 4Runner with sway bars, where KDSS was like a 4Runner without sway bars. Obviously.

 

[linuxgod]

Would be hard to compare, really apples to oranges. The frame of a Tundra is pretty flexy, where a 200 is not. It would be too hard to isolate the leaf springs to coil springs in our garages.

While not articulation, here is a demonstration of who flexy a Tundra frame (plus... try not to smile)


Suspension articulation is a hard thing to really measure. Going up an RTI ramp is not indicative of flexing out when on flat ground, or side slopping.

The fact that you can never shove tires inward as hard as when actually off road is why it’s hard to compare. Also, recently wheeling with a LX customer, having your sway bars still attached when wheeling was very apparent to me as a hindrance. Not a huge one, but it felt a lot like a 4Runner with sway bars, where KDSS was like a 4Runner without sway bars. Obviously.

Obligatory after watching that video

 

[DirtNap]

First, great test/post TeCKis! And pretty cool that your base results lined up quite closely with the launch press release blurb.

Also, recently wheeling with a LX customer, having your sway bars still attached when wheeling was very apparent to me as a hindrance. Not a huge one, but it felt a lot like a 4Runner with sway bars, where KDSS was like a 4Runner without sway bars. Obviously.

Taco2C: if / when you get a chance, could you elaborate on that a little? I have only run my 200LC with KDSS. Have been considering LX570, just curious about the tradeoffs from one to the other.
Thx
DN

 

[TeCKis300]

We know the height setting on the LX will effect articulation from RTI analysis. Just as firmer and longer springs would on an LC. I would bet the anecdote comes from the individual running in high mode.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

First, great test/post TeCKis! And pretty cool that your base results lined up quite closely with the launch press release blurb.

Taco2C: if / when you get a chance, could you elaborate on that a little? I have only run my 200LC with KDSS. Have been considering LX570, just curious about the tradeoffs from one to the other.
Thx
DN

We know the height setting on the LX will effect articulation from RTI analysis. Just as firmer and longer springs would on an LC. I would bet the anecdote comes from the individual running in high mode.

Having a friend with a 2014 Grand Cherokee with air suspension (horrible car) I was already familiar with anything in it's highest settings kinda sucks. Good for when raw ground clearance is needed to get over something, but you don't want to exactly ride around like that all day.

So we played with all the height settings, and sorry, but when anti-sway bars are attached, the anti-sway bars do their job, which is not great off road. So when you don't get enough weight on a corner to really compress it, especially the front end, it just gets more tippy. Keep in mind, my 200 has BP51s up front, so 750 lbf springs, and 2723s in the rear with a bone stock back end, so i've got some pretty stiff springs with not a lot of weight. I don't have drawers, or batteries, or RTTs, or aux tanks. At this moment, I've got sliders, half stainless/half aluminum skids, ARB winch bar with a Warn 9.5 XP. I've got some frame and body components converted to aluminum (because I can). So i'm one of the lightest lifted 200s on here. Probably just the ARB bar itself is my heavy item. I know it's hard to accept that AHC is not overall better than KDSS. They both have their merits, they both have their weakness. Reliabily, off road agility, and ability to be easily modified, and handle heavier loads on the winding road, I have to give it to the LC. Adaptable to a handle a wider spectrum and not a one trick pony, go from interstate to back country travel, what most people are using their 200 for, I have to give it to the LX.

But I have to touch on a point I just said, The KDSS bars are insanely stiffer than what's on a AHC truck, so when I test drive these things after work done... the LXs just sway around more. Seems like everyone has some heavy RTT up there these days, and at first I just though it was LC always getting stiffer springs help them out. Then I had a LC with bone stock suspension and the biggest RTT I've ever seen. That thing was still more stable than an LX I've driven.

It pretty awesome to have AHC. It really is. For the vast majority of people who need to daily drive them. Then drive them across the country, then take them off road and out of now where, boom, it's lifted, is pretty cool. But for more dedicated purpose off road travel, I don't think it's all that great.

Then there is the reliably. Having a customer who had his AHC fail, what happens? Low setting, and he was on the Rubicon. So what happens when you are out somewhere really remote, instead of a trail close to dealerships? If KDSS fails what happens? You loose sway bars. Okay, sucks, but still not falling to the ground because the springs and shocks are normal old technology and not a bag of air.

That's were I feel Toyota nailed it for the two respective system on two different phiosophy of thought. More road oriented and dual purpose rig, AHC no doubt. More Off road oriented, and single purpose, KDSS. Overseas they offer both KDSS and AHC on Land Cruiser plates, and it is probably the same. Two different tools, that focus a tad more for the intended purpose. Both do great on road, both do great off road, but they have their slight advantage over the other in a couple respects in my opinion. I never had an AHC 200 overseas. All mine were KDSS and diesels, and I had enough turbo problems and honestly didn't know about AHC back then to think much about suspension.

Also, why does the AHC have to have its rear sway bar set so low? Just a big hang up point. That's another thing for the KDSS, it's all tucked up nice and high.

And maybe someone who has owned both an LX and LC and wheeled both of them in more technical terrain can share a different view. I'm just one guy. I don't own an LX, just around them more these days.

The 4Runner reference is when we go to wheeling events, and you see a 4runner with sway bars, and the same one with the sway bars removed. It's amazing how much more the one without a bar flexes. Since I don't see many people rolling their LX without sway bars, maybe one of the LX guys can try that. Much easier to remove than a LCs KDSS, but why would you remove KDSS?

If I had to take a guess. Stock to stock, a LX with the sway bars removed would be much more awesome than a LC with KDSS.

All this doesn't really matter anyway. We have IFS, and there is only so much of big rocks you can do with IFS. At least we still have a solid rear axle still.

 

[bloc]

The entire point of a sway bar is to reduce suspension displacement from one side to the other. All of this makes sense.

While it is clearly possible to flex up a LX, I wonder how the force on each wheel compares to the same situation in a LC. Though without a corner weighting setup that seems difficult to quantify. Point is, those low tires on a cruiser may have more traction when flexed up.

But, this thread is about travel. I’ll get those numbers for a LC with kings in the next week or so.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

While we are talking about suspension travel comaprisons. Here was some pictures taken for a question @bloc was talking about, but I never could find that tread after I got this opportunity.

Does stiffer springs limit flex. Umm... no. Bone stock LC vs super stiff spring 200 with sliders, just the front and engine aluminum skids, and a TrekBoxx Bravo drawer. Which are super heavy, seriously why do drawers have to be that heavy? Will other find this not to be the case? maybe, this was just what we found over here.

So let's talk about real life articulation. If I see one more RTI test on pavement... I'm not going to do anything, BUT I will roll me eyes. Oh yes, rolling of eyes will happen. Traction will make suspension flex harder than it ever did before, simply because you are pushing more forward up the iffy obstacle than before. Give yourself triple lockers and some 17 psi all terrain, pshhhh, your tires gets stuffed so much more.

 

[TeCKis300]

Having a friend with a 2014 Grand Cherokee with air suspension (horrible car) I was already familiar with anything in it's highest settings kinda sucks. Good for when raw ground clearance is needed to get over something, but you don't want to exactly ride around like that all day.

So we played with all the height settings, and sorry, but when anti-sway bars are attached, the anti-sway bars do their job, which is not great off road. So when you don't get enough weight on a corner to really compress it, especially the front end, it just gets more tippy. Keep in mind, my 200 has BP51s up front, so 750 lbf springs, and 2723s in the rear with a bone stock back end, so i've got some pretty stiff springs with not a lot of weight. I don't have drawers, or batteries, or RTTs, or aux tanks. At this moment, I've got sliders, half stainless/half aluminum skids, ARB winch bar with a Warn 9.5 XP. I've got some frame and body components converted to aluminum (because I can). So i'm one of the lightest lifted 200s on here. Probably just the ARB bar itself is my heavy item. I know it's hard to accept that AHC is not overall better than KDSS. They both have their merits, they both have their weakness. Reliabily, off road agility, and ability to be easily modified, and handle heavier loads on the winding road, I have to give it to the LC. Adaptable to a handle a wider spectrum and not a one trick pony, go from interstate to back country travel, what most people are using their 200 for, I have to give it to the LX.

But I have to touch on a point I just said, The KDSS bars are insanely stiffer than what's on a AHC truck, so when I test drive these things after work done... the LXs just sway around more. Seems like everyone has some heavy RTT up there these days, and at first I just though it was LC always getting stiffer springs help them out. Then I had a LC with bone stock suspension and the biggest RTT I've ever seen. That thing was still more stable than an LX I've driven.

It pretty awesome to have AHC. It really is. For the vast majority of people who need to daily drive them. Then drive them across the country, then take them off road and out of now where, boom, it's lifted, is pretty cool. But for more dedicated purpose off road travel, I don't think it's all that great.

Then there is the reliably. Having a customer who had his AHC fail, what happens? Low setting, and he was on the Rubicon. So what happens when you are out somewhere really remote, instead of a trail close to dealerships? If KDSS fails what happens? You loose sway bars. Okay, sucks, but still not falling to the ground because the springs and shocks are normal old technology and not a bag of air.

That's were I feel Toyota nailed it for the two respective system on two different phiosophy of thought. More road oriented and dual purpose rig, AHC no doubt. More Off road oriented, and single purpose, KDSS. Overseas they offer both KDSS and AHC on Land Cruiser plates, and it is probably the same. Two different tools, that focus a tad more for the intended purpose. Both do great on road, both do great off road, but they have their slight advantage over the other in a couple respects in my opinion. I never had an AHC 200 overseas. All mine were KDSS and diesels, and I had enough turbo problems and honestly didn't know about AHC back then to think much about suspension.

Also, why does the AHC have to have its rear sway bar set so low? Just a big hang up point. That's another thing for the KDSS, it's all tucked up nice and high.

And maybe someone who has owned both an LX and LC and wheeled both of them in more technical terrain can share a different view. I'm just one guy. I don't own an LX, just around them more these days.

The 4Runner reference is when we go to wheeling events, and you see a 4runner with sway bars, and the same one with the sway bars removed. It's amazing how much more the one without a bar flexes. Since I don't see many people rolling their LX without sway bars, maybe one of the LX guys can try that. Much easier to remove than a LCs KDSS, but why would you remove KDSS?

If I had to take a guess. Stock to stock, a LX with the sway bars removed would be much more awesome than a LC with KDSS.

All this doesn't really matter anyway. We have IFS, and there is only so much of big rocks you can do with IFS. At least we still have a solid rear axle still.

While I agree with some points here, it's taking a narrow perspective on sway bars without consideration to how AHC tender springs contribute to overall articulation. As with everything, it works as a system. I'll leave it at that as that's not the intent of this thread.

If you have an opportunity, I'd be interested if you have measurements to help us compare suspension travel.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

While I agree with some points here, it's taking a narrow perspective on sway bars without consideration to how AHC tender springs contribute to overall articulation. As with everything, it works as a system. I'll leave it at that as that's not the intent of this thread.

If you have an opportunity, I'd be interested if you have measurements to help us compare suspension travel.

Oh yeah, totally, It's a system like that Tundra comment I made earlier. We could never compare to that just because of frame differences. I'm sure I'll have the opportunity to gather any data points in the future and share.

One thing I don't know. Does AHC bags adjust pressure left and right to get better articulation? Or do they stay the same left and right?

Edit: If we want travel numbers, take the springs out and measure. It will all be the same so it doesn't matter. Past that, it will just be how much force is required to twist an AHC anti-sway bar, or compress a coil. Which is why it may be a system, but some components just do their own thing.

Which brings me back to the overall comments I made earlier. When you look right at two trucks, going up the same obstacles all day, where one tips more repeatedly than the other, it makes you draw some conclusions. It's not the lab, it's how it works as a system in real life. The problem we are going to have, is that I don't have a bunch of computers that are taking measurements to quantify differences.

If anything, I think taking measurements on a paved pad is not fully including the "system." we are talking articulation, and flat pavement is never including in that system for when it matters.

@TeCKis300, any particular number you want me to gather? I've got a '11 LC on the lift this week getting its Total Chaos upper and lower arms rebuilt. side note, TC lowers, while stupid expensive, man... do those tire have so much more droop now.

 

[bloc]

side note, TC lowers, while stupid expensive, man... do those tire have so much more droop now.

More droop than stock arms with the same struts? Shouldn’t it just be a leverage ratio thing? I assumed any aftermarket arm for a given platform had the same leverage ratio as stock.. or are these arms for a tundra?

 

[TeCKis300]

Oh yeah, totally, It's a system like that Tundra comment I made earlier. We could never compare to that just because of frame differences. I'm sure I'll have the opportunity to gather any data points in the future and share.

One thing I don't know. Does AHC bags adjust pressure left and right to get better articulation? Or do they stay the same left and right?

Edit: If we want travel numbers, take the springs out and measure. It will all be the same so it doesn't matter. Past that, it will just be how much force is required to twist an AHC anti-sway bar, or compress a coil. Which is why it may be a system, but some components just do their own thing.

Which brings me back to the overall comments I made earlier. When you look right at two trucks, going up the same obstacles all day, where one tips more repeatedly than the other, it makes you draw some conclusions. It's not the lab, it's how it works as a system in real life. The problem we are going to have, is that I don't have a bunch of computers that are taking measurements to quantify differences.

If anything, I think taking measurements on a paved pad is not fully including the "system." we are talking articulation, and flat pavement is never including in that system for when it matters.

@TeCKis300, any particular number you want me to gather? I've got a '11 LC on the lift this week getting its Total Chaos upper and lower arms rebuilt. side note, TC lowers, while stupid expensive, man... do those tire have so much more droop now.

AHC is not an air bag based system. It's actually a hydraulic cross-linked system, not unlike KDSS, that acts directly on the shocks. AHC doesn't adjust pressure in those situations, but will link and unlink just like KDSS when crossed up. It will also use active adjustment of the dampers to increase/decrease compression travel in dynamic situations.

I'm particularly interested in how much extended travel front and rear the various aftermarket LC suspension systems give.

Appreciate the pictures of the ramps. That always adds more color to the discussion. I'll add one too. Small diameter sway bars are plenty slinky when working with tender AHC springs. I'll have to keep a tape measure in the car so I have it on hand to measure next time as I couldn't reproduce this with the limited lift of the floor jack.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Oh yeah, totally, It's a system like that Tundra comment I made earlier. We could never compare to that just because of frame differences. I'm sure I'll have the opportunity to gather any data points in the future and share.

One thing I don't know. Does AHC bags adjust pressure left and right to get better articulation? Or do they stay the same left and right?

One thought. If we really want to know travel numbers, take the springs out and measure full droop to bump. That's what I do when cutting for big tires. With that, it will just come down to how much force is required to twist an AHC sway bar.

More droop than stock arms with the same struts? Shouldn’t it just be a leverage ratio thing? I assumed any aftermarket arm for a given platform had the same leverage ratio as stock.. or are these arms for a tundra?

no they are stock length arms just with uniballs.

I was just as shocked. When I was getting it positioned on the lift, I was talking about how they don’t matter and why would you spend the money, then I lifted it off the the ground and was like, “oh... damn, okay that’s cool.”

Actually now that I think about it, it got to be all the urethane bushes. Because it’s amazing how much the factory rubber bushes hold back droop.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

AHC is not an air bag based system. It's actually a hydraulic cross-linked system, not unlike KDSS, that acts directly on the shocks. AHC doesn't adjust pressure in those situations, but will link and unlink just like KDSS when crossed up. It will also use active adjustment of the dampers to increase/decrease compression travel in dynamic situations.

I'm particularly interested in how much extended travel front and rear the various aftermarket LC suspension systems give.

Appreciate the pictures of the ramps. That always adds more color to the discussion. I'll add one too. Small diameter sway bars are plenty slinky when working with tender AHC springs. I'll have to keep a tape measure in the car so I have it on hand to measure next time as I couldn't reproduce this with the limited lift of the floor jack.
View attachment 2492760

Nice, but how to wheel with that hitch, i'd be dragging that thing all the way.

For comparison with that same ramp above. I found these pictures from Atlanta Takeover 2019. Notice the front end difference. Do you have/can get LX front end differences of flex.

And going down, with more weight on the front end.

Look at that stuff!! tread block are tucked behind the fend lip. I have a walk around video, I should get that up on youtube.

 

[bloc]

no they are stock length arms just with uniballs.

I was just as shocked. When I was getting it positioned on the lift, I was talking about how they don’t matter and why would you spend the money, then I lifted it off the the ground and was like, “oh... damn, okay that’s cool.”

Actually now that I think about it, it got to be all the urethane bushes. Because it’s amazing how much the factory rubber bushes hold back droop.

Thing is, if the stock arms can flex to the upper limit of the bump stops, and the lower limit of the extended strut, there shouldn’t be any difference in total travel. Maybe a difference in force on the ground for a given vehicle weight and spring rate, due to less effective spring rate from no rubber bushings, but the total travel *should* be the same.

Then again how many people run TC arms and stock struts?