Suspension Travel Comparison

[TeCKis300]

I got lazy as I knew I had enough clearance with AHC high for that particular trail so I left the hitch on.

This was definitely not pegging the suspension out and was on AHC high. Even on a little rock, there's plenty of flex to go around.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Thing is, if the stock arms can flex to the upper limit of the bump stops, and the lower limit of the extended strut, there shouldn’t be any difference in total travel. Maybe a difference in force on the ground for a given vehicle weight and spring rate, due to less effective spring rate from no rubber bushings, but the total travel *should* be the same.

Then again how many people run TC arms and stock struts?

Take your truck, and lift it off the ground.
Take a measurement.
Then loosen your lower control arm bolts.
Watch the tire drop.

That is what is happening with you swap the vulcanized rubber bushes for non deflection urethane.

I never thought about it till now, but I’ve been doing it this whole time when swapping struts.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I got lazy as I knew I had enough clearance with AHC high for that particular trail so I left the hitch on.

This was definitely not pegging the suspension out and was on AHC high. Even on a little rock, there's plenty of flex to go around.

View attachment 2492783

Damn that looks good. I would imaging that on a little rock, there is always plenty of flex to still be had.

But that’s not the point. I’m talking about the ragged edge. Subarus do fine on what most people with a 200 drive. I thought we are talking about the full potential, and the point where limits can be extended. Then, we know where an actual improvement is to be gained, and not modifying, for the sake of modifying.

This should be a good thread, but I’m gonna place my bet on the Toyota engineers are smarter than all of us, and the real world feedback confirmed or denied what the engineers came up with in the lab and flex has already been determined.

Unless, you just get rid of more than coils and shocks. But we’ll see.

 

[TeCKis300]

I would imaging that on a little rock, there is always plenty of flex to still be had.

But that’s not the point. I’m talking about the ragged edge. Subarus do fine on what most people with a 200 drive. I thought we are talking about the full potential, and the point where limits can be extended. Then, we know where an actual improvement is to be gained, and not modifying, for the sake of modifying.

Sorry, you lost me. If you're suggesting that any 200-series however equipped, is anything like a Subaru, air bags, or air suspension Grand Cherokee as you presume AHC is, you've got it all wrong.

You can suppose all you like. I prefer the way my car is equipped and find more than capable for my mix of uses. Actually, it's the pinnacle for the way I use my car. It's obvious you have different preferences and that's fine. But I would encourage you to learn a bit more about the other side as your opinions are polarized.

That's not really the point of this thread anyways. I'd like to learn more about objective numbers the chassis is capable of.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

Sorry, you lost me. If you're suggesting that any 200-series however equipped, is anything like a Subaru, air bags, or air suspension Grand Cherokee as you presume AHC is, you've got it all wrong.

You can suppose all you like. I prefer the way my car is equipped and find more than capable for my mix of uses. Actually, it's the pinnacle for the way I use my car. It's obvious you have different preferences and that's fine. But I would encourage you to learn a bit more about the other side before you disparage it.

You took that all wrong. I was absolutely not saying that an LX is like those other vehicles at all. So no worries, we are on the same page that AHC is different and very special. AHC is vastly superior to anything else out there.

However, your comments on me needing to “learn a bit.” I test far more 200 platforms than you ever will. I’ve personally build 72 LC/LXs in the last 19 months and takehalf those customers out for their first runs and teach them how to get the most out of it. That’s not the shop I’m at splitting the work load, that’s me, me doing the work. I get going when typing and said bags, meant to say shocks. AHC doesn’t give me much memorable moments as I can’t do much more than a trim packer. I spend most my time doing other things around the underside of them. Words have meaning, and I could see where you mistook what I said earlier. Apologies for that. But my opinions of their capabilities is from the drivers seat, terrain, and what the thing will do when doing the same thing with another one. How much more do you want? Similar terrain comparisons across multiple different builds, what’s to get butt hurt about?

I respect your analytical background, but you have a very hard time accepting that you only know your small world, your one LX, and whatever YOU do, pshh, that’s the gospel now. That in itself, is very hypocritical of a comparison thread. Don’t like being challenged, don’t start threads that you have limited scope in.

But to say that I don’t like to learn, have you even read anything I’ve posted? Come on man, you are far better than that.

If you think I’m busting your balls, I’m not. But when you want to talk suspension, which means off road stuff, don’t be surprised, that ‘ol Taco over here, who off roads a lot is going to say some stuff. And when you say that a sway bar doesn’t limit articulation... you kinda show your ass, everyone knows a sway bar limits articulation. Damn.

Ever wonder why I don’t post on stereo upgrades, paint care, chrome delete, Apple CarPlay threads? I don’t have enough background because I don’t do those enough. And those who do, will raise an eyebrow. As @Markuson said, “you can only BS a BSer. You can’t BS someone who knows.”

 

[TeCKis300]

You took that all wrong. I was absolutely not saying that an LX is like those other vehicles at all. So no worries, we are on the same page that AHC is different and very special. AHC is vastly superior to anything else out there.

However, your comments on me needing to “learn a bit.” I test far more 200 platforms than you ever will. I’ve personally build 72 LC/LXs in the last 19 months and takehalf those customers out for their first runs and teach them how to get the most out of it. That’s not the shop I’m at splitting the work load, that’s me, me doing the work. I get going when typing and said bags, meant to say shocks. AHC doesn’t give me much memorable moments as I can’t do much more than a trim packer. I spend most my time doing other things around the underside of them. Words have meaning, and I could see where you mistook what I said earlier. Apologies for that. But my opinions of their capabilities is from the drivers seat, terrain, and what the thing will do when doing the same thing with another one. How much more do you want? Similar terrain comparisons across multiple different builds, what’s to get butt hurt about?

I respect your analytical background, but you have a very hard time accepting that you only know your small world, your one LX, and whatever YOU do, pshh, that’s the gospel now. That in itself, is very hypocritical of a comparison thread. Don’t like being challenged, don’t start threads that you have limited scope in.

But to say that I don’t like to learn, have you even read anything I’ve posted? Come on man, you are far better than that.

If you think I’m busting your balls, I’m not. But when you want to talk suspension, which means off road stuff, don’t be surprised, that ‘ol Taco over here, who off roads a lot is going to say some stuff. And when you say that a sway bar doesn’t limit articulation... you kinda show your ass, everyone knows a sway bar limits articulation. Damn.

Ever wonder why I don’t post on stereo upgrades, paint care, chrome delete, Apple CarPlay threads? I don’t have enough background because I don’t do those enough. And those who do, will raise an eyebrow. As @Markuson said, “you can only BS a BSer. You can’t BS someone who knows.”

I'll bite my tongue here and you can assume my small world. It would serve you well if you didn't presume. Nor show your limitations by saying things like air system or air bags. That's on you.

I've shown you pictures here where explicitly, the sway bar is not limiting articulation. The proof is in the pudding. Also demonstrated by RTI score however you may want to dismiss it. Two ways to do it, stiff springs and decoupling sway vs tender springs and tender sway.

Carry on.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

I'll bite my tongue here and you can assume my small world. It would serve you well if you didn't presume. Nor show your limitations by saying things like air system or air bags. That's on you.

I've shown you pictures here where explicitly, the sway bar is not limiting articulation. The proof is in the pudding. Also demonstrated by RTI score however you may want to dismiss it. Two ways to do it, stiff springs and decoupling sway vs tender springs and tender sway.

Carry on.

We all have to presume everyday. We take past experiences, and it shapes our view of what the future will be until we experience something that reshapes that. That is how you wake up, and go to work, and presume that you’ll have no issues. It would be beneficial, if you would explain your background, as it relates to what we are talking about, the way the rest of us do. Whenever I ask about why you think the way you do, it’s always the same, “if you only knew.” There isn’t a security clearance in the world that would keep you from saying how you learned from your car experiences. It’s not gloating, it’s helping frame a viewpoint. Road racers have their view, overlanders have theirs, crawlers have theirs, and tow pigs have theirs. When it comes to people, not equipment, you have to presume. The entire DoD is built around presuming what others will do, so it’s a hard habit for me to break. I’m not perfect at anything, just pretty good at four things. War, off roading, living off the land, and pleasuring women. Past that, average at best.

So let’s take a step back. We always fight, it’s okay, it’s what we do, and we get over it. We should probably just PM about this stuff in the future.

I saw only a picture on a small rock that doesn’t mean anything, to me at least, because it looked like nothing (and I’m adjusting for how pictures always look so much more tame than real life). And any RTI score I’ve seen, the KDSS goes further, slightly, which goes back to my original statement that in stock form, they are both pretty good at doing the same thing, with a slight edge between them. Is there an RTI score out there that gives AHC the plus? Seriously asking.

So I have an honest question for you. You say that, and I’ve seen that, the AHC doesn’t do as well, when on high setting, in regards to articulation, correct?

 

[afgman786]

@Taco2Cruiser to your point about the TC lowers allowing more droop. Does it allow to the point where CV angles would be compromised on the trails? Being lifted already gets em at a steeper angle so wouldn't even more droop than stock potentially make it easier to get into a situation snapping the CV?

Also you mentioned the comparison of t4r with and with no sway bars. I've driven around with my KDSS valves loose after installing rear springs to make sure everything was level and it drove like there were no sway bars. I haven't had a situation yet where I needed more flex, but couldn't keeping the valves open at 3 turns while on the trails allow your suspension to flex even more in a good way

 

[tbisaacs]

I’m not going to pretend that I’m anywhere as smart as ol’Taco or Teck but I turn into a giddy little boy at the opportunity to flex these trucks out. It’s like a party trick.

 

[Madtiger]

I’m not going to pretend that I’m anywhere as smart as ol’Taco or Teck but I turn into a giddy little boy at the opportunity to flex these trucks out. It’s like a party trick.

View attachment 2493890

View attachment 2493894

Why is your front end not flexing much? Was this in HI mode?

 

[bjowett]

FWIW, Dakar race rules permit a max 250mm/9.84" of suspension travel. That could easily play into the design here.

 

[tbisaacs]

Why is your front end not flexing much? Was this in HI mode?

I'm not sure what photo you are referring too—but in first photo the ground behind right-rear wheel was also sloping away from the truck, that's why you see so much droop in the rear left. It was basically a bowl. There is no opposing force to compress the front wheel. Here's the other side:

In my experience, being in high has little to no impact on flex.

 

[DirtNap]

FWIW, Dakar race rules permit a max 250mm/9.84" of suspension travel. That could easily play into the design here.

FINALLY, someone who understands the constraints I'm under, trying to go 10,000km as fast as possible while staying within the "rules."

I crack myself up

(Seriously though, obscure but cool info BJowett. How cool is it that we have people here on Mud that know fricking Dakar race rules?)

 

[DirtNap]

Thanks for the informative and "spirited" debate above. Sorry that my question derailed the thread, TeCKis! I hate to pontificate and potentially take it further afield (who am I kidding, I love pontificating). But in the closing words of the Jerry Springer Show, I think we've learned something today.
1) Rarely is there an absolute best, rather, best tool for the mission. Learned that through the answers my dad (USAF ret) gave about 'the best' fighter jet*.

2) It is a system, system, system. Smart AHC delivering a softer effective spring, cross-load pseudo-sway discon, but still with a soft sway, vs. stiffer springs & stiffer KDSS sway.

2A) Corollary: Toyota engineers are really good at optimizing these components for the mission. Going farther in one performance dimension means a tradeoff somewhere else. We could do long travel, slinky suspensions for extreme rock crawling but at the cost of say driveability, even on-road safety (e.g., "Moose Test"). Or one that handles more load and towing but rattles your teeth on potholes.

3) How we view the performance envelope of the system generally reflects our historic and expected personal use (including known and unknown biases we all have). T2C laid it out well, but grossly oversimplified, one could argue that "at the margin" the springs (and KDSS) are simpler and thus likely more durable, and potentially offer marginally more flex, whereas the AHC offers a broader optimum envelope of performance across flex, ride height, ride comfort, but *at the margin* might have slightly less total flex. I'm not saying it does, but conceptually lets say T2C is correct about KDSS (i.e., no sway at all vs. lighter sway))

4) It's really hard to be truly objective. I mean, I can, but most can't. (-; But folks above have done a pretty good job despite some 'creative friction'. How can I be objective? Well, I have a lifted LC and love it. No, it isn't building 70+ 200s. But I'm also very intrigued by the "broader optimum" the AHC offers my mission. Even if I go offroad one weekend a month (and let's be honest, I'm nowhere near that), being able to drop the truck back to stock height (or even lower) would save me a lot of marital grief from my short wife and shorter daughter, and frustration from not being able to reliably fit into the parking garages where I live! And since it could be lowered to stock, it wouldn't look ridiculous with stock 'street' tire sizes, but I could put it on High, slap on something like a 285/75/17 for the offroad days, and TeQ's your uncle. What might the tradeoff be? 5% less performance in the most extreme (and infrequent) scenarios? Maybe that's fine considering what you get. Or maybe not. Horses for courses yada yada yada.

5) At least we aren't in a Range Rover forum trying to diagnose electrical gremlins.

DN

* His answer to to "Which fighter is the best? F-14? F-15?, F-16 or F-18?" "Depends. F-14 is unmatched for long range intercept and fleet protection; F-15 for overall air superiority, F-16 for agility, and F-18 for, well, I guess, being the Navy's F-16." Ok, we both knew the answer was the F-15, but he was right. And before I get flamed, I made up the F-18 thing because I'm tired and lazy.

 

[bjowett]

LOL!.... and don't think for a second that it is not appreciated! A good ribbing is always nice!

FINALLY, someone who understands the constraints I'm under, trying to go 10,000km as fast as possible while staying within the "rules."

I crack myself up

(Seriously though, obscure but cool info BJowett. How cool is it that we have people here on Mud that know fricking Dakar race rules?)

 

[DirtNap]

LOL!.... and don't think for a second that it is not appreciated! A good ribbing is always nice!

Seriously, I love that kinda sh!+ !!

 

[bloc]

Finally got my rear kings out to check the upper bushings. Looks like they are almost 3/4" longer than stock rear struts. I lined up the bottom eyelet exactly and took a picture of the difference. Still haven't got the thing on a ramp yet, and it'll be after thanksgiving at least. I managed to gall one of the LCA pivot bolts and have to wait on that before I can get it aligned after my OME UCA install.

 

[linuxgod]

Finally got my rear kings out to check the upper bushings. Looks like they are almost 3/4" longer than stock rear struts. I lined up the bottom eyelet exactly and took a picture of the difference. Still haven't got the thing on a ramp yet, and it'll be after thanksgiving at least. I managed to gall one of the LCA pivot bolts and have to wait on that before I can get it aligned after my OME UCA install.

Given there's nothing from preventing the rubber bushing from continually rubbing/contacting the mounting hole, would it be foolish to re-use the washers from the original shocks?

 

[bloc]

Given there's nothing from preventing the rubber bushing from continually rubbing/contacting the mounting hole, would it be foolish to re-use the washers from the original shocks?

Funny you ask.. I was planning on making this exact topic a thread in itself.

With the stock King bushings there isn't room. But with their standard flat top pin-mount shock bushings I think you could. Thing is, I got my stock ones out and they looked great with 3k on them, despite being overtightened. Nothing like the ones Taco posted that were trashed with 4k. I didn't even pull the second shock. Mine do look like they are constructed differently though, so maybe king improved the design for our application.

This is getting off-topic though.

 

[TeCKis300]

Finally got my rear kings out to check the upper bushings. Looks like they are almost 3/4" longer than stock rear struts. I lined up the bottom eyelet exactly and took a picture of the difference. Still haven't got the thing on a ramp yet, and it'll be after thanksgiving at least. I managed to gall one of the LCA pivot bolts and have to wait on that before I can get it aligned after my OME UCA install.

View attachment 2501005

Cool detail. I would infer based on extended shock length, and that the rear axle motion ratio is practically 1:1, that this would provide 3/4" more droop at the rear than stock. That makes almost 11" travel at the rear!