Some beginner questions.

Discussion in '70-Series Tech' started by LCFan, Nov 13, 2005.

  1. LCFan

    LCFan

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    Hi there,

    First I'd like to say that this is a terrific site. I'm new to Land Cruisers but I've been reading up as much as I can about them, and this forum is filled to the brim with useful information.
    I'm thinking about buying a Japan-imported 70 series LC and I have a few questions regarding the different models. If any of you can help me out, it would be greatly appreciated.

    I'm trying to decide between a BJ70/73, BJ74 or HZJ73, but I'm not sure how to balance age, vehicle availability, reliability, parts availability, driving characteristics etc.

    Regarding the 3B vs 1HZ:

    Is one more reliable or tougher built than the other? I've read the threads pertaining to both, but is there a consensus? I've seen some postings about the 3B head cracking, is this something to be concerned about in every one?

    I understand that the 3B has not been made for many years but the 1HZ has been; does this create a problem with parts availability?

    Does one start easier in cold weather than the other?

    How does fuel economy compare between 3B, 13B-T, 1HZ? I've read that 13B-T returns better economy than 3B and vice versa, and I'm not sure about 1HZ?

    I've read here that the axles on the HZJ73 are not as robust as those on the BJ70/73/74.... is that a factor only in heavy off roading?

    If any of you could help me sort some of this out, it would be a great help (I may have some more questions to follow ;)

    Thanks in advance,

    Paul
     
  2. Eric Winkworth

    Eric Winkworth

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    As far as the 3B goes I can offer some help, it is a well designed motor, problems with head are more related to owner neglect then actual problems. It is a slow, noisy old motor. That will almost never let you down, compleatly mechinical in every way possible, which is a good thing. I personnaly would look into a 13-bt or 12 HT with under 200 000km's and no rust is very nice, Crusher and/or Ishobie both have import businesses for japanise and other LC's I would buy my next truck either of them, depended on your location. At least then you have a newer truck with a helpful, nice guy behind it that will help you if any problems do occur, buying a curbside LC is in my opioion a bad idea, unless you are mechnically inclined and know what to look for.

    All of the motors are difficult to find parts for, the 3B because it is old and the IHZ because it was never actually sold in canada, but don't let that scare you off, any parts needed can be boughten aftermarket for the 3B, and several places like ENS etc for the newer motors.

    All in all in your search, look for leaks, check all fluids a 24 or maybe 23 mm socket will be needed for tranny,transfercase and diffs. Ask tons of questions, feel pipe in passenger side wheel well, before it is started make sure it is cold, then from a cold start see how much white smoke she puffs, excess is probably a sign it needs a tune up (like injectors etc) anymore then 5 sec is kinda alot. All white smoke blue is bad! The white smoke is just excess fuel left in the motor.

    Just don't be affriad to get right underneath it and really look, remeber LC's arn't race cars, they are ment only for the purpose of being the toughest all wheel drive truck ever! If you like speeds over 120 km's an hour or often travel on the highway I wouldn't recommend the 3B.

    any questions
    don't be affriad to ask

    Cheer
    Eric
     
  3. Greg_B

    Greg_B

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    Now that is a lot of questions...

    Good, better, best? I don't really like those words in a discussion like this. I prefer advantage and disadvantage as this requires a thought shift and is the basis for a meaningful discussion which looks at both sides. As a datum, imo all the engines you mention are good, as they are from the heavy duty line of LandCruisers.

    Anyway...

    Parts for the 3B will be around for years imo. You can go to retailers on Cdn soil and pay for the convenience of off the shelf (and there is value to that), or go to Oz and get parts ordered in, depending on your timelines.

    HZ is a current production motor. You will be able to get parts for years and probably longer then the 3B. I think I will be long gone when 3B parts dry up though, and I not planning on leaving soon. You can get parts for the HZ from Ens Lexus on the prairies, and some parts cross over and local Lexus dealers can get them if you have EPC and give them the part number.

    HZ has a timing belt, as opposed to the gear driven 3B/13BT/2H/12HT. Some people prefer the gear driven, however I've not heard of issues with belts breaking. In fact I was told the other day the service interval has gone up to 150,000kms? Quieter engine and more HP with the belt.

    HZ has a gear driven vacuum pump, as opposed to the vacuum pump hanging off the rear of the alt on the 3B/13BT/2H/12HT. This is an advantage in a few ways (no splines on the alt to worry about stripping, and the world of possibilities to different alternators open up when doing swaps. That said I am not worried about the vacuum pump hanging of the back of the alts on any truck I have…just cognisant.

    HZ has a rotary pump as opposed to the inline pump of the 3B/13BT/2H/12HT. The inline is very very robust. It has the advantage over the rotary imo. Keep the fuel very clean and run a good fuel additive that looks after water is good rule of thumb for any diesel, however even more so for the rotary pumps.

    You can upgrade very easy to a 1HD-T if you choose, with the HZJ73.

    On any HZ with turbo, or HD-T I would do the BEB’s with ACL’s as a precaution.

    I've always been under the understanding the 1HZ replaced the 3B in terms of 3rd world reliability. I am open to more information and corrections as always.

    The HZ will crack heads if abused too.

    Both the 3B and 1HZ respond well to turboing. imo moderation is the key when turboing any IDI motor and maintaining longevity. On any HZ with turbo or HD-T I would do the BEB’swith ACL’s as a precaution

    At typically 600psi as opposed to the 400psi 3B (around there anyway) my experience is the HZ starts easier in cold weather. This is test bed experience using ambient temps only. Someone who has daily driven an HZ for a while will know better.

    The HZJ73's do have the smaller front 3rd, which is shared with the minitrucks and 80 series. Are they tougher? Supposed to be an advantage for the older fronts. The rears are the same as the older trucks.

    The HZJ73 will also have the mid-sized knuckle, which will require ordering felts/rings from Ens (and one or two retailers in the USA have as well). The birfield is mid sized as well (between the 40/60/older70 and 80 series). You can use the smaller birf, but not the larger 80 one). Bearings and such are the same afaik.

    The 6 cyl 2H/12HT/1HZ/1HD-T are all smoother then the 3B or 13BT.

    I figure a HZJ73, with the front and rear cable locked axles from a BJ74, and with a 1HD-T swapped in would be a dandy truck...

    I like all the ones you mentioned, and suggest that confirmed low mileage, confirmed no rust, and loaded (either cable locked or electric lockers and factory winch) would be more the deciding factor then one engine over the other.

    I would go for the longer 7* series if given a choice, as you gain more storage in the back.

    hth's

    gb
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2005
  4. Eric Winkworth

    Eric Winkworth

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    "On any HZ with turbo, or HD-T I would do the BEB’s with ACL’s as a precaution."

    BEB stands for big end bearing, those are the main bearings, something IMO you should never have to worry about in a motor, I know I am gonna get alot of replies about this comment, but it is toyota building things to break! Alot more powerful motor, but with undersized bottom end bearings, thats hurtin. Again JMO

    "The 6 cyl 2H/12HT/1HZ/1HD-T are all smoother then the 3B or 13BT"

    any 6 cylinder motor will have better balence/smoothness then a 4 cylinder, remember they burn more fuel too, but my underpowered 3B sometimes has me wishing it was a 6!

    "I would go for the longer 7* series if given a choice, as you gain more storage in the back."

    Depends on what you want Wagon or hardtop style, Wagon has an advantage for passengers and storage, Hardtop has the advantage for off road short wheel base capablity.

    cheers

    BTW Greg, didn't mean to pick apart your post, you have alot more first hand experience then I with these things, just wanted to clairfy.
     
  5. LCFan

    LCFan

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    Thanks very much guys for your responses.

    From what I'm understanding, assuming I take proper care of the vehicle, either will be reliable in the long run.
    One of the reasons I'm looking at getting one of these Cruisers is that I really like the idea of having an extremely well built vehicle that will last for many years of use. I want something as mechanical as possible, with as little electronic to go wrong as possible.
    With this in mind, since the HZJ73 came after the 3B trucks, are they much more complicated and prone to electical gremilns than the older trucks?

    As an aside, I've been eagerly following the FJ Cruiser since the first concept debuted a few years ago. I was really hoping that they would recreate the old Land Cruisers, with bulletproof construction, diesel engine, small maneuverable size and a minimum of gadgets... I really thought it would be my next vehicle... you know, a Toyota quality wrangler type truck that will be superb off road but won't break down in a year. But I've been pretty disappointed what's coming out in February, as it seems to be more similar to an Xterra than an old FJ40 or 7* series. A very nice truck, just not what I was hoping for.

    Also, in addition to the rough stuff, I want to use this truck as my daily driver. Would the short WB truck be too choppy for on road driving do you think? Is the 3B without a turbo do-able for every day use or do you frequently find it lacking in power? Could you give me an idea of the fuel economy for 3B/13BT/1HZ? I've read anywhere from high teens to almost 30 mgp for the 3B, but can't find much for the 13BT or 1HZ.

    Thanks again,

    Paul
     
  6. crushers

    crushers post ho

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    BEB is the bearings on the crank in the connecting rods not the main bearings in the engine.
     
  7. crushers

    crushers post ho

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    the MWB 7* series has no leg room in the rear seat which is one of the main reasons i do not like the 73/74 series. the shorter wheelbase 70 series has better leg room in the back and the rear seat still folds up for storage. the shorter wheel base 70 series is prone to the "ocean motion" when riding in it, i am not sure why this model displays this tendancy more than the other models but if you or your wife gets motion sickness then stay away from this unit or take one for a long test drive before purchasing.

    the 3B gets great fuel milage but is S L O W. the 13BT gets around 25 mpg on a good day. the 1PZ has much more power than the 3B which it replaced in 1990 and gets the same fuel milage, is quiet and reliable. the 1HZ is probably the best naturally asperated Toyqta diesel that we can get into Canada today. excellent fuel economy, powerful, quiet, simple and reliable. i returned 27 mpg with mine turning 35" boots. on average though the 1HZ returns about 23 mpg. i have not went through a full tank of fuel on the highway with the PZ so i am not sure what it returns but around the city it is doing better than the 1HZ.

    the light duty LJ series shares the same front end as the newer PZ/HZ and the same 151 tranny from behind the 1HZ and the same old style 2 piece t/case. it also shares all the same interior as the "heavy duty" 70 series but has the coil suspension for a MUCH better ride. the 78 series can be equiped with the suspension seats for a truely supieror ride that easily rivals the 81 series.

    for the best of all worlds and if you have a family then the 77 or the 78 series is the ultimate. or if you are into the SUV look then the 81 series is the one to look at. if you want the convertable ability you can get either a rag top 70 short wheel base or the removable top 73/74 series.

    it really comes down to what you want to have in the end. if you have a family then the 73/74 series really is a PITA for the rear seat riders and should be avoided. if it is just you and the wife then any one of the 70 series will make you happy.
    since Greg was posting his opinion on his imput allow me to do the same. the 13BT is a powerful engine but TOO sensitive for the 5 spd to be considered. you will not enjoy the driving characterisitis of the 5 spd off road. the BJ73 with be wanting a turbo very quickly which can lead to some serious money being laid out.
    my suggestion is to take one for a test a test drive before you purchase.
     
  8. Eric Winkworth

    Eric Winkworth

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    That is the guy to buy your truck from, I know he didn't say it, but I will! He knows his stuff and stands behind it!

    As for the BEB error, sorry I thought it was the main bearings, I bet it is fun getting those bearings out of the connecting rods!
     
  9. crushers

    crushers post ho

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    don't feel bad this is a common misconception.

    very simple proceedure, attention to detail when reinstaling is crucial though.

    cheers
     
  10. VTCruiser

    VTCruiser

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    From what I have heard, the BEB issue was largely a supplier issue regarding the composition of the original bearings, not a design flaw. I am confident it is not "toyota building things to break". I have some manufacturing experience (BMW) and these things happen. It is a precaution, not all 1HD-Ts and turbo'd 1HZs have the problem, but new bearing are cheap in comparison to a complete rebuild if they let go.

    I get around 21 average from my 1HZ in my big 60 wagon on 33x12.5 M/Ts, and I tend to dog it pretty good on the interstate ~75mph. The best i have seen for a tank was 24mpg. I expect a slight increase after it's turbo'd due to the increased combustion efficiency.
     
  11. Ratpuke

    Ratpuke SILVER Star

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    Post 7: Wayne says: "it really comes down to what you want to have in the end.... if you have a family then the 73/74 series really is a PITA for the rear seat riders and should be avoided. if it is just you and the wife then any one of the 70 series will make you happy. the 13BT is a powerful engine but TOO sensitive for the 5 spd to be considered. you will not enjoy the driving characterisitis of the 5 spd off road. the BJ73 with be wanting a turbo very quickly which can lead to some serious money being laid out"




    Whatever Wayne. How many hours have you spent behind the wheel of either of these types?

    I've wheeled Agent O for almost 4 years now and wouldn't change anything about the 13B-T / 5spd set up. In fact, I've recommended this setup to several people contemplating swapping in diesels to their 40s. Agent O rocks. The 13B-T in a 42 is awesome. 4 years of wheeling her offroad in places like Moab, Pismo and Walker Valley have proven this to me.

    Now, regarding the 73 - depends on what a person wants. I've put on 40,000km+ on Mr. G. in the past year and a half - most recently having driven to Pismo from Moberly Lake and back in a week, hauling a M101. There were three adults and two dogs and whole schwak of gear and the back seat was quite enjoyable actually. While Mr. G. tops out at 130km, I still am not seeking a turbo. The rotary pump kicks out a little more power and the only time a turbo would be handy is if I'm in a rush and have to pass tanker trucks on a single lane highway. Even then, the RHD issue is more of a pain than the non-turbo situation.

    So
    a) 13B-T with 5spd kicks ass.
    b) BJ73 is roomy enough for 2 large dogs and 3 adults for a 6day road trip, and powerful enough not to need a turbo unless you've got a necessity to do more than 120km/hr for extended periods of time.

    It really *does* come down to what you want to have in the end (and not *the end* you sickos).
    airborne.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2005
  12. crushers

    crushers post ho

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    What ever Charla,
    let's see, i put 20,000 km on the ol'smokey in the first couple years i owned it and most of that was eithre off road or gettign to and from the trail head. as you well know the truck was a BJ74 with the stick and on rough trails at speed it really sucked. you might have gotten lucky with the install Bruce did and yes Agent Orange is a great rig but i have seen many of the BJ74 sticks being uncomforatble off road due to the lurching when driving in the rough.

    as for the BJ73, i am glad you are happy but you do not come across as the type to spell out any concerns you might have with a rig. once you and Bruce pop out a couple kids we will see if you still like that tight back seat and the PITA getting in and out. i do not know who was in the back seat on your trip but either they sat sideways or had VERY short legs or the pasenger front had their seat pulled up close to the dash.
    the 3B with the rotory pump is a nice engine.

    i thought Bruce was building a manifold to turbo that truck?
     
  13. harveya

    harveya

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    4 hours start to finish being careful, one of the simplest major jobs you can do on the 1HD-T /1HZ etc engine.

    Main bearings like all engines I have seen can't be done without dropping out the gearbox.
     
  14. Greg_B

    Greg_B

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    Hi Eric...and this my friend is where the 73/74 wheelbase is so nice. In fact it is pretty much the "correct" wheelbase for wheeling in some peoples opinion.

    Eric, if the post comes from a headspace of providing information, ideas, or simply presenting a differing opinion...and not "having to be right" then there is no picking apart imo, so no worries.

    I consider the rear seats in my BJ74 as emergency seats, and usually have them flipped up and out of the way. I've not done a long trip like Charla has, so consider her information.

    I have not found the 13BT/H55F twitchy off road. I wonder if the lurching is simply getting used to your right foot being in mid air and not against the transmission hump as in a LHD. I have learned to extend the head of my foot to the kick panel, and have control. When I hear lurch or twitchy I think of the 12HT/H55F prepensity to bounce off the bottom. The 13BT does not have that. Hand throttle is good in some situations too...if used carefully.

    If you really want to maintain the 7* series look, have ease of access (6 doors), and to maintain the heavy duty line of engines then consider an HJZ77. The HZ maintains the H55F as it's transmission for a number of years. I don't know a lot about the R151 transmissions, however do know they did not last in the mines behind the HZ. I've been told it was the early R151's, and there is a pin inside that needs changing/working/replacing. Once that's done Bob's your uncle..but don't have all the details.

    Remember, the larger the storage space...the more junk you take along :D

    I am low to mid 20's IMPG with my BJ74, bars all over, winch, 255/85R16's.

    hth's

    gb
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2005
  15. 70sguy

    70sguy SILVER Star

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    Toyota designed the BEBs on 1H# engines to fail??? Not likely. Apparently they went to tin/Al bearing composition over the traditional Copper/Lead for environmental reasons, something to do with lead getting into the oil. It has nothing to do with the size of the bearings.

    The 6cyl 1HZ does not necessarily burn more fuel. I have been driving stock 242k km HZJ77 w/ roof cage for the last month and despite the massive increase in cargo space, roof rack and extra grunt that allows it to hold 8% hills at 90kmph, it gets the same or better fuel economy than the 86 BJ70 I drove for nearly 10 years. My last tank of fuel went 700km on a 78liter fill and that was mixed hiway and city. It also starts much easier on cold mornings, 1 cycle of the glow and just touch the starter and it is running, and no sputtering or major smoke. The 4 wheel discs are also a nice touch, it stops very well.
    I am very impressed with it overall.

    Sheldon
     
  16. lowenbrau

    lowenbrau

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    We did get lucky on the 13BT install to the BJ42 and have none of the annoying off road lurching which brings me to think that the fix for a BJ74 is simply a linkage mod. The BJ70 rear seats are indeed much further back and have a lot more legroom at the expense of cargo space. In the MWB rigs the passengers have to share the available room or the rear seat passenger can sit sideways. I did a lot of kms this way on the Pismo trip since there is no seatbelts back there anyway. I actually find the lack of left foot space for the driver to be the biggest annoyance in the JDM rigs. It gets downright painful when you are trying to put 1500 kms on per day. That would be the single best reason to prefer a LHD rig.

    I an surpised at how much power the NA 3B with the rotary pump has. Even at altitude, pulling a trailer into the wind we were able to hold 110 - 120 Km/h There is no way my BJ70 (inline pump) could have done that even when stock. I sure hope the rotary pump lasts as long.
     
  17. Greg_B

    Greg_B

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    Probably, though I have not had a problem to date with it (knock on wood).

    And this is where the RHD autos have it over the standards imo. Both the auto equipped HJ61 and HDJ81 have foot pads on the left, so you can stretch out and rest your left leg/hip/foot. I don't know what the manual RHD 80 series is like.

    hth's

    gb
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2005
  18. Tapage

    Tapage Club 4X4 Panamá SILVER Star

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    yessss ... ! I'm with you Greg .. :D

    My ful trail mudd wheeling and excursion rig HJ-60 with 37" and bla bla bla .. give to me about 22 mpg no more .. my 2H engine, was a very reliable engine, a lots of good times with no problems .. off course if you can get a 12H-T much better.

    Anycase to your question I thought if you are thinking about trail toy, 73 74 are your better options .. and off course with the 1HZ if you can. why .. ?

    Simple .. it's more new than 3B .. no matter what.
     
  19. rick_d

    rick_d

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    I'll chime in...

    73/4 series. Move the seat back 2" (I modified while installing BJ70 rear seat base for seat belts) and this makes the rear seat better, not great, for 2-4 hour trail trips. Access to rear seats sucks, but I feel is a compromise with wanting a mid wheel base truck.

    imnsho, BJ70's are too small for anything above a couple, and dogs OR gear, not both. I have never owned a true 70, but have driven in 3 or 4 of them around town and so cal highway.

    engines:

    I found that being a speed demon the 13B-T does not have what it takes for summer + az highway speeds + 4.11 diffs. I am 98% through a 6 cylinder (HD-T) conversion with Marks gears (2.81:1).

    everything else will be slower.
     
  20. Stone

    Stone Moderator

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    Well...I'll throw my $0.02 CAD in. :D

    I also like my 13B-T/H55F combo. It's been my daily driver and wheeler for two years and I haven't really found it lurchy at all. At least nowhere near as lurchy as a 12H-T/H55F combo. I would have no problems recommending this type of setup to anyone at all.

    And the 13B-T is powerful? I guess it's all relative. :D If it's so powerful, 13B-T owners wouldn't be itching to fiddle with the boost pressure and fuel settings so much. :D
     
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