A/C servicing; vacuum, oil and charge system? (1 Viewer)

[2001LC]

I've need to charge the AC system on my 2007. I've had the compressor out of vehicle along with HP and LP lines disconnected. I kept all openings clean & covered with tape or foil. I did not drain oil from compressor and noticed about a tablespoon oil from evacuating lines into container.

FSM states; do not run engine with AC system empty. That even with AC off it can damage compressor. So this must be done without starting engine. Edited: 5/19/19 After reading up on AC systems and hearing what others had to say. We believe FSM has a misprint. That as long as AC not turned on engaging magnetic clutch, engine can be run.

I need a step by step with tool and materials:

AC manifold. I have one from HF.
Vacuum pump, which pump and CFM?
Valve needed to hook up manifold to pump?
Valve needed to hook up manifold to a can of refrigerant?
Which oil?
Which refrigerant?
How to do this step by step?

Anyone have some experience that can lay this out for me, or point me to a step by step for the 100 series?

Thanks guys.

 

[white_lx]

FSM it states do not run engine with AC system empty. That even with AC off it can damage compressor. So this must be done without starting engine.

Maybe if the compressors clutch engages and there is no oil in the system. There are many vehicles driving with leaky A/C system, i.e. no gas in the lines.

I need a step by step with tool and materials:
AC manifold. I have one from HF.

There are two styles of fittings. ASME 1/4" flare (45 degree flare) for R12 systems and ACME 1/2" for R134A. The latter is a proprietary fitting, to ensure that different refrigerant systems can not be mixed. Adapters are available, but officially they are illegal. If you have a R134A manifold set, you will have ACME fittings on the manifold and the hoses.

Vacuum pump, which pump and CFM?
Valve needed to hook up manifold to pump?

If you purchase a vacuum pump designed for refrigerant service, it will most likely come with the ACME fitting to hook up to your manifold set. Typically they also come with an adapter or a 'T' and also have the ASME flare fitting for older R12 systems. If you are using an industrial vacuum pump things are a bit trickier, as you need to adapt to a male 1/2" ACME fitting (I use a 1/4NPT to 1/4 ASME flare fitting followed by a to a Flare to ACME adapter).

CFM is not really relevant. It will just take longer to evacuate the system. Final pressure (how good of a vacuum) is more important. Two-stage pumps typically obtain a lower vacuum, but should not be necessary.

Valve needed to hook up manifold to a can of refrigerant?

You need a can tap with the 1/2" ACME fitting - assuming that this is what your manifold has. Some taps have an R134A ACME fitting, others come with a flare to ACME adapter fitting.

Which oil?
Which refrigerant?

PAG-46 oil and R134A refrigerant. I think the amounts are listed under the hood. The amount of oil to add depends on how much oil is in the system still. Were the lines flushed? I guess you could just add the FSM amount? Too much is better than too little.

 

[white_lx]

How to do this step by step?
Anyone have some experience that can lay this out for me, or point me to a step by step for the 100 series?

Full disclosure: I'm not a 'pro', but I've always been able to repair the A/C on my own vehicles. The 100 series is not different from most other vehicles, other than the rear A/C. There are many good YouTube videos and web sites dedicated to this.

It is important to know that the manifold reads the pressures in the system even when the valves are closed. The only thing the valves do, are opening the H and L side to the common volume in the middle of the manifold. Therefore never open H and L at the same time, unless you are evacuating the system.

1. Hook up manifold and vacuum pump
2. Start vacuum pump
3. Open valves 'H' and 'L' on couplers connected on vehicle and 'H' and 'L' valves on manifold
4. Watch pressure go down on 'L' gauge.
5. Pump for about 30 minutes.
6. Close 'H' and 'L' valves on manifold.
7. Pump can be switched off now.
8. Watch for ~ 2 hours to ensure the vacuum is not lost. Needle should not move.
9. If not OK, find the leak and start over.
10. Start pump again and open both manifold valves.
11. I personally like to pull a good long vacuum to remove trace amounts of moisture. I run the vacuum pump overnight (since I have never replaced the receiver / desiccant dryer).
12. Close both manifold valves.
13. Switch off vacuum pump and remove manifold hose at the vacuum pump.
14. Connect the can tap to the hose removed from the pump.
15. Screw refrigerant can on can tap.
16. Pierce can with the can tap needle and back off needle to allow flow.
17. Use a small screwdriver to bleed the refrigerant hose at the manifold to remove all air from the hose (quick burst, be careful).
18. Start the vehicle, front and rear AC to max AC, open windows.
19. Carefully open the 'L' valve on the manifold. Leave the 'H' valve closed!
20. Watch the pressures on the gauges and compare to FSM.
21. You will need more than 1 can (I think 2 in total). When the can is empty (pressure no longer increasing), close the 'L' valve on the manifold and remove the can (small amount of refrigerant will bleed off from hose and can).
22. Screw on next can, pierce it and bleed the hose again.
23. Open 'L' valve on manifold.
24. Once system is full (observe H and L gauges), close the 'L' valve. FSM states to check pressures at 2000 rpm.
25. Run system for a while to ensure all works fine.
26. Close quick connect couplers at the vehicle and remove the hoses from the vehicle.
27. Replace the caps on the fittings (ensure o-rings are in good shape).

 

[Spike555]

The rule of thumb is to drain the compressor and add all new oil, like @white_lk said, the amount of oil needed will be in the repair manual, it's not much oil either. Just a few ounces.

 

[nissanh]

Here is a great video by Timmy in T4R forum

 

[abuck99]

Good write up @white_lx .

I think this would be one of the few jobs Id farm out to the A/C shop or dealer. Sounds like more tools required.....

 

[2001LC]

Thanks for the info and replies guys, especially detail @white_lx

I've not yet had time to dig into the info you provided.

But two things that trouble me are:
1) The not running engine. I edited OP with picture from 2007 LC FSM. It's clear on this. I did not see in my 2001 FSM, but need to look closer.
2) ND-OIL 8 is spec in FSM for AC oil and Denso oil is my preference to insure compatibility with factory oil. But nowhere does it say to add oil to compressor. It repeatedly in all FSM (01, 05 & 07 hard copies and current TIS), but does state to add 1.4oz to condenser and evaporator, and all coat o-ring(s) when replaced.
FSM has a full section on tearing down and assembly of compressor. But does not say drain or add oil????????????

 

[medtro]

I've need to charge the AC system on my 2007. I've had the compressor out of vehicle along with HP and LP lines disconnected. I kept all openings clean & covered with tape or foil. I did not drain oil from compressor and noticed about a tablespoon oil from evacuating lines into container.

FSM it states do not run engine with AC system empty. That even with AC off it can damage compressor. So this must be done without starting engine.

This is what I saw from the FSM:

DO NOT OPERATE COMPRESSOR WITHOUT ENOUGH REFRIGERANT IN REFRIGERANT SYSTEM

If there is not enough refrigerant in the refrigerant system, oil lubrication will be insufficient and compressor burnout may occur. To avoid this, always keep enough refrigerant in the refrigerant system.

I need a step by step with tool and materials:

AC manifold. I have one from HF.
Vacuum pump, which pump and CFM?
Valve needed to hook up manifold to pump?
Valve needed to hook up manifold to a can of refrigerant?
Which oil?
Which refrigerant?
How to do this step by step?

Anyone have some experience that can lay this out for me, or point me to a step by step for the 100 series?

Thanks guys.

There are EVACUATING and CHARGING sections in the FSM. Are they not good enough?

 

[medtro]

2) ND-OIL 8 is spec in FSM for AC oil and Denso oil is my preference to insure compatibility with factory oil. But nowhere does it say to add oil to compressor. It repeatedly in all FSM (01, 05 & 07 hard copies and current TIS), but does state to add 1.4oz to condenser and evaporator, and all coat o-ring(s) when replaced.
FSM has a full section on tearing down and assembly of compressor. But does not say drain or add oil????????????

My FSM calls for ND-OIL 8 or equivalent. I would use PAG 46 if this was mine.

I can't find oil info for the compressor too. However, I found the following from the 80 series FSM, this should give you an idea on how much to use in the 100 series.

Compressor oil - ND–OIL 8 or equivalent

When replacing receiver - 10 cc (0.35 fl.oz.)

When replacing condenser - 40 cc (1.4 fl.oz.)

When replacing evaporator - 40 cc (1.4 fl.oz.)

When replacing compressor - 120 cc (4.1 fl.oz.)

 

[white_lx]

2) ND-OIL 8 is spec in FSM for AC oil and Denso oil is my preference to insure compatibility with factory oil.

From this web site: http://www.denso-am.com/media/corpo...essor-oil-and-refrigerant-mixing-old-and-new/
"DENSO uses ND-oil 8 for its R134a type refrigerant compressors, a PAG 46 oil."

So it seems that ND-OIL 8 is just a brand name for PAG-46 oil. Denso sells it in 250cc containers, part# 997635-8250, but a quick Google did not really reveal any online sources.

 

[flintknapper]

Thanks for the info and replies guys, especially detail @white_lx



But two things that trouble me are:
1) The not running engine. I edited OP with picture from 2007 LC FSM. It's clear on this. I did not see in my 2001 FSM, but need to look closer.

Regardless...the 'wording' in the FSM (all of them famous for poor translations and even outright mistakes), running your engine WITHOUT engaging the compressor (yours isn't even in the truck) will NOT damage it. It can't, its not turning or moving in any way. What you are supposed to take away from this is: Don't run the A/C system (compressor) without refrigerant because it is the refrigerant that carries the lubricating oil (PAG-46) through the system.

2) ND-OIL 8 is spec in FSM for AC oil and Denso oil is my preference to insure compatibility with factory oil.

Simply purchase ANY PAG-46 oil, it doesn't matter who manufactures it. All of it is produced to provide certain standards and properties.

But nowhere does it say to add oil to compressor. It repeatedly in all FSM (01, 05 & 07 hard copies and current TIS), but does state to add 1.4oz to condenser and evaporator, and all coat o-ring(s) when replaced.
FSM has a full section on tearing down and assembly of compressor. But does not say drain or add oil????????????

Because it assumes removing a still usable compressor from a properly charged (oil and refrigerant) system. You 'could' reinstall it just as is.

BUT...here is the trouble with re-charging a system that is many years old and the history of which you may not know. Has oil been added in the past (services/recharge)? Some technicians think it is a good idea to add 2-3 ounces each time the system is opened or just serviced. NOT SO! Too much oil in the system will cause poor cooling. Too little of course results in premature compressor failure.

Personally, I will NEVER put any compressor on a vehicle without draining the oil from it (even a new one if it came filled) and refill it with fresh oil. That takes care of the compressor, but you have no way of knowing how much oil is in the rest of the system. That is why in many cases it is best to flush the system and start with known quantities of oil and refrigerant (refrigerant weighed in).

I'm not sure I am following what it is you are planning to do and why?

If you plan to reinstall a known to be good compressor on a previously working (and leak free) system, that should be simple enough. All you need for parts are new O-Rings for any fittings you have removed, a new desiccant bag/cartridge, 1- 8oz bottle of PAG-46 oil, several cans of R-134a refrigerant (however much your unit specifies, in ozs.). I prefer to replace the Schrader valves in the charge ports at this time as well.

The tools needed are a manifold gauge set and hoses and a decent vacuum pump. You will need a can tap of some type.

Then follow White_LX's instructions and you should be fine. I do a few things a little differently, but his method is sound and good for a novice to use.

^^^^^^^^ Expand for replies.

 

[2001LC]

This is what I saw from the FSM:

DO NOT OPERATE COMPRESSOR WITHOUT ENOUGH REFRIGERANT IN REFRIGERANT SYSTEM

If there is not enough refrigerant in the refrigerant system, oil lubrication will be insufficient and compressor burnout may occur. To avoid this, always keep enough refrigerant in the refrigerant system.



There are EVACUATING and CHARGING sections in the FSM. Are they not good enough?

No, FSM is lacking any info on oil or oiling compressor. It for this reason I initially drew a wrong conclusion of: no additional oil needed for compressor. Even the section on rebuilding compressor had oiling o-ring, but nothing else that I saw.

From this web site: http://www.denso-am.com/media/corpo...essor-oil-and-refrigerant-mixing-old-and-new/
"DENSO uses ND-oil 8 for its R134a type refrigerant compressors, a PAG 46 oil."

So it seems that ND-OIL 8 is just a brand name for PAG-46 oil. Denso sells it in 250cc containers, part# 997635-8250, but a quick Google did not really reveal any online sources.

Based on the link to Denso, must be more than brand name. It states the ND-12 has additives specifically for the new R1234yf:

"DENSO uses ND-oil 8 for its R134a type refrigerant compressors, a PAG 46 oil. The new refrigerant type uses ND-oil 12, also a PAG 46 oil but with additives specifically for the R1234yf type refrigerant."

So we can use either, but I'll stick with ND-8 PAC 46 oil SAE J-639. Very good chance Denso sources from Exxon. So I look for Exxon under manufacture if I can't find Denso.

My FSM calls for ND-OIL 8 or equivalent. I would use PAG 46 if this was mine.

I can't find oil info for the compressor too. However, I found the following from the 80 series FSM, this should give you an idea on how much to use in the 100 series.

Compressor oil - ND–OIL 8 or equivalent

When replacing receiver - 10 cc (0.35 fl.oz.)

When replacing condenser - 40 cc (1.4 fl.oz.)

When replacing evaporator - 40 cc (1.4 fl.oz.)

When replacing compressor - 120 cc (4.1 fl.oz.)

So that's a lot more info then the 100 series. I assume 80s have Denso compressors as well?

 

[2001LC]

When I say I drew a wrong conclusion.
I concluded oil is in refrigerant 134a:

1) Reason is that FSM stated do not run without refrigerant (you'd think it would state OIL as well). Only reason I can now think the statement didn't mention oil, is refrigerant carries oil through the system?

2) No mention of oil used in AC compressor in any AC section in any 100 series manual, that I found.

Good write up @white_lx .

I think this would be one of the few jobs Id farm out to the A/C shop or dealer. Sounds like more tools required.....

This was the plan!
As I've never had any issue with AC, much less needed the tools to work on AC with any vehicle in me life. So I wasn't going to spent more $ to tool up, probably more than a shop would likely charge to service. Until I read do not run engine even with compressor off.

Now I don't even want to fire up my newly installed engine, until this is resolved.

Bottom line I want to be absolutely positive before doing anything the FSM doesn't clearly spell out a procedure for.

 

[flintknapper]

Go back to post #11

I have shed a little light on your concerns.

 

[2001LC]

@flintknapper I see that now, thanks.

I agree statement must be lacking the word OIL, because refrigerant carries oil throughout system. I found over the years reading the FSM in "proper light" it does mean what it says.

MY PLAN! Well, to fire up a newly installed engine without damaging compressor. So new plan is to charge AC myself.

It's always been my understanding, Pulley on compressor is free from turning any other parts, until engaged (AC ON). But the statement on page AC-2 of 2007 FSM clearly states parts are moving inside the compressor whether AC off or on. So this set me back in my original plan to just fire up the engine and have AC serviced by Dealer.

This clean rig was Dealer maintained with no record of any AC work. The small amount of oil (1 or 2 tablespoons) I collected looked good. I'll put back like amount. I just want to be certain I'm not using wrong oil, as I do not like mixing oils. So now I'll be charging with 134a. Using vacuum pump I picked up today from HF. I have new O-rings. Still need oil, tap for can, and r134a.

Earlier I ask which refrigerant? I was not clear, as I did see HFC134a printed everywhere. My question was more about which brand and additive package if any. I mean I see cans say synthetic, leak preventer or stop, dye added, etc. Is there a best brand, and is one with or without any additive best?

 

[2001LC]

@flintknapper you said "new desiccant bag/cartridge" have you installed one in a 100 series?

Is this it 8847417010

 

[medtro]

So that a lot more info the the 100 series. I assume 80s have Denso compressors as well?

Denso makes AC compressor for 80 series. I am sure other manufacturers make AC compressor for 80 series too. FWIW, Denso 471-1166 compressor comes with 7.6 oz of oil from factory.

 

[medtro]

When I say I drew a wrong conclusion.
I concluded oil is in refrigerant 134a:

You can buy R134a with oil in a can if that is what you want to use.

 

[flintknapper]

@flintknapper you said "new desiccant bag/cartridge" have you installed one in a 100 series?

The receiver/drier is mounted on the side of your condenser. It has one or more plugs that allow you to access the desiccant bag. Anytime you have opened the system to atmosphere (except just briefly) replace the desiccant. You'll want to add a small amount of PAG-46 oil to the receiver (about 10cc) before you seal it back up.

07 2007 Toyota Land Cruiser A/C Receiver Drier - Climate Control - Denso - PartsGeek


Unless you suspect you have a significant leak someplace...then just straight refrigerant (no dyes, or additives) are needed.

When recharging the system be sure you DON'T invert the can/vessel of refrigerant and introduce 'liquid' into the low side (suction side). There is a chance you could 'slug' the compressor.

I prefer to charge the first can (12 ounces or so) of refrigerant in liquid form into the high side (engine OFF) system under vacuum. That will get a good charge into the system BEFORE the engine and compressor are started. There are several advantages to that....BUT YOU MUST UNDERSTAND the procedure. For a novice...I'm going to say go with charging (gas) into the low side (engine running, A/C on max).

Watch a few youtube videos and you will see the process. Let us know if you have any specific questions and we can walk you through it. But there is nothing about running your engine (Sans compressor) or with compressor mounted (but NOT engaged) that will hurt either unit.

I DO understand your concerns about doing things 'right' and applaud you for it. But I think in this case the FSM has caused you some unnecessary worry.

 

[2001LC]

@flintknapper is that Denso Drier the same as OEM, just not in a Toyota box?

Toyota retail is nearly 5 times that at ~$95.