So I think the Michelin Defender is the perfect all-terrain tire... (For most of us) (6 Viewers)

[eatSleepWoof]

I run the Hakka R3 SUVs on my 200. Blizzaks on a few other vehicles. Based on my experiences, the Blizzak is a better tire on packed snow and ice, which we get a lot of here in Idaho. I went with the Hakkas on the 200 mainly because I was curious how they would perform. They’re just fine in fresh snow and they do ok on packed snow and ice. They’re just not as good when it comes to stopping on snow and ice. Blizzaks are just better.

Every review out there will tell you that Hakkapolita winter tires are hands-down the best of the best, but my own experience is inline with yours.

I've ran Hakkas R2 (?) on an older SUV and wasn't impressed with them in the least. Blizzaks have always done the job for me, and that's what I've been using on my LX since I bought it.

 

[36J594]

I live in the Southeast and, if I encounter ice, it's usually snow or freezing rain that turns to ice, melts into slush, and re-freezes as ground temps swing over and under 32° F. I would not really consider running a winter tire, but I am curious how the Defender LTX M/S and M/S2 compares to All Terrain segment standards like the Falken AT4W and BFG KO3 in these conditions. Does anybody have a basis for comparison?

 

[liv2bike]

I live in the Southeast and, if I encounter ice, it's usually snow or freezing rain that turns to ice, melts into slush, and re-freezes as ground temps swing over and under 32° F. I would not really consider running a winter tire, but I am curious how the Defender LTX M/S and M/S2 compares to All Terrain segment standards like the Falken AT4W and BFG KO3 in these conditions. Does anybody have a basis for comparison?

No comparison between a true winter tire and a BFG KO2. Can’t speak to a KO3. However I don’t run winter tires on my truck. I’d rather drive our old front wheel drive Odyssey with Blizzaks than my 4WD truck with KO2s.

 

[Sandroad]

I live in the Southeast and, if I encounter ice, it's usually snow or freezing rain that turns to ice, melts into slush, and re-freezes as ground temps swing over and under 32° F. I would not really consider running a winter tire, but I am curious how the Defender LTX M/S and M/S2 compares to All Terrain segment standards like the Falken AT4W and BFG KO3 in these conditions. Does anybody have a basis for comparison?

You’ve named the worst winter driving conditions, IMHO. That often produces black ice and is really difficult for other drivers to adjust to. I’ve never run Falken or BFG, so I can’t compare for you, but any tire other than a winter tire will struggle some in those conditions.

 

[nikoli]

You’ve named the worst winter driving conditions, IMHO. That often produces black ice and is really difficult for other drivers to adjust to. I’ve never run Falken or BFG, so I can’t compare for you, but any tire other than a winter tire will struggle some in those conditions.

I'd think any non-studded tire would struggle with random patches of black ice.

@36J594 , if you want a year-round tire, you'd do fine with set of LTX m/s in the south east.

 

[gasman4u]

I'd think any non-studded tire would struggle with random patches of black ice.

@36J594 , if you want a year-round tire, you'd do fine with set of LTX m/s in the south east.

I can barely count the times I have heard the people who just moved from NY, MA, etc bang the same drum of "I'm from the north, I'm used to driving in the snow - you southerners don't know how to drive in this stuff (blah blah blah)..."

They too are humbled at some point by the ice we sometimes get with or without the snow.

Agreed about the Defenders on the ice. You'd get a ticket driving studded tires down here best I can remember, but if it's that bad idk that anyone would be out to actually issue you a ticket.

 

[nikoli]

I can barely count the times I have heard the people who just moved from NY, MA, etc bang the same drum of "I'm from the north, I'm used to driving in the snow - you southerners don't know how to drive in this stuff (blah blah blah)..."

They too are humbled at some point by the ice we sometimes get with or without the snow.

Agreed about the Defenders on the ice. You'd get a ticket driving studded tires down here best I can remember, but if it's that bad idk that anyone would be out to actually issue you a ticket.

Right and besides, a studded tire would be awful for the 99% of the winter days in the SE anyway.

Most folks are better off having a good year round tire and use extreme caution on those 1% days... and/or just avoid driving on those days.

Otherwise people are gonna blow $$$ having two sets of tires, because we all know most folks are never gonna get their winters on in time anyway.

 

[urinalcake]

Tire Rack’s analysis on highway all season tires.

 

[unclemat]

I put P-metric 285/65/18 LTX Defenders M/S2 about 7000 miles ago (on OEM 18" wheels) on our 2015. Drove cross-country, including some snow and ice. I previously ran KO2 LT285/70/17 on Rock Warriors as well as P-metric studded Nokian Hakka 9 in 275/65/18 (P-metric) on this truck. On our 2021 I have LT Nitto Ridge Grapplers on 285/70/17 also on Rock Warriors.

I went with this tire since I wanted a quieter tire and one that is usable year round (I would not drive KO2s in winter). In fairness, the studded Nokians were overkill for New England, though they were awesome in bad conditions and also great on a winter rally course

Now the Michelins: most important difference - soft sidewalls! The ride is certainly plushier, which is particularly noticeable when bombing on dirt/gravels roads, but on highway speeds the handling suffers notably. I forgot how the truck handled on stock sized Michelins Latitudes that came with the truck when I bought it used 70k miles ago when I promptly switched to the KO2s. It is same, and maybe worse due to the extra sidewall (those tires were OEM sized, so 60 profile, and these are 65).

Fuel usage wise, I maybe gained 1 mpg. I drive the truck somewhat fast (~85 mph) and somewhat aggressively at times (yay, KDSS). It is possible to adjust to the softer tire, but I miss the handling of the LT tires. Even the Nokians seemed more sure footed.

Noise wise... technically they are not any quieter than KO2 (or even Nitto Grapplers), same db reading on the same patch of the road, however the type of noise they emit is nicer, though KO2 were never too objectionable (Grapplers do have mud-tire like hum).

In snow the Michelins have nothing on Nokians, but that's expected and no surprises here. Hit a patch of black ice on a curve, and got in a mild 4 wheel slide... was quite scary, but managed to control the truck. Again, it's not a winter tire, but it seemed worse than expected. I drove some distance on a snow covered dirt road with a mix of packed and fluffy snow, and I was sliding more than I liked or expected.

Then I also drove on a really muddy dirt road - it was a near disaster, I slid off the road into a deeper mud almost got stuck. But MTS/Crawl Control saved the day... It is definitely not a mud tire, which is even less of a surprise.

Overall, I like the tire more on the dirt roads than on highway, go figure. Perhaps should have bought this tire in the 17" LT version.

 

[El Skywalker]

I live in the Southeast and, if I encounter ice, it's usually snow or freezing rain that turns to ice, melts into slush, and re-freezes as ground temps swing over and under 32° F. I would not really consider running a winter tire, but I am curious how the Defender LTX M/S and M/S2 compares to All Terrain segment standards like the Falken AT4W and BFG KO3 in these conditions. Does anybody have a basis for comparison?

Having owned both the Defender LTX M/S 2 P metric and Falken ATW3s SL, they both perform well in winter weathery mixes.

 

[gaijin]

I put P-metric 285/65/18 LTX Defenders M/S2 about 7000 miles ago (on OEM 18" wheels) on our 2015.

That tire is not P-Metric, it is an XL ISO-Metric. Proper size description is MICHELIN® Defender LTX M/S 2 285/65R18/XL 116T.

The RCTIP for that tire on your LC200 is 38psi, what pressure were you running?

HTH

Edit to add:

From the Michelin web site:

 

[JohnPW]

That tire is not P-Metric, it is an XL ISO-Metric. Proper size description is MICHELIN® Defender LTX M/S 2 285/65R18/XL 116T.

The RCTIP for that tire on your LC200 is 38psi, what pressure were you running?

HTH

Edit to add:

From the Michelin web site:
View attachment 3792642

I fully understand LT vs P metric, in terms of load and required pressures. I am confused as to P-metric vs ISO-metric…what are the practical differences?

I am surprised the recommended pressure for this tire is 38psi vs the 33psi of the door jamb, could you elaborate as to why a higher pressure is necessary?

 

[gaijin]

I fully understand LT vs P metric, in terms of load and required pressures. I am confused as to P-metric vs ISO-metric…what are the practical differences?

I am surprised the recommended pressure for this tire is 38psi vs the 33psi of the door jamb, could you elaborate as to why a higher pressure is necessary?

P-Metric vs. ISO-Metric:

For the full story of how to determine proper RCTIP, read it all in this excellent monograph on the subject published by Toyo Tire:

Guidelines for the Application of Load and Inflation Tables

Note that among ISO-Metric tires, it is also important to note the difference between Standard Load (SL) and Reinforced/Extra Load (XL) variants:

HTH

 

[unclemat]

That tire is not P-Metric, it is an XL ISO-Metric. Proper size description is MICHELIN® Defender LTX M/S 2 285/65R18/XL 116T.

The RCTIP for that tire on your LC200 is 38psi, what pressure were you running?

Oh, s***. Did not realize that, and apparently I have been running them underinflated. I have been running them at 33 psi.

 

[gaijin]

Oh, s***. Did not realize that, and apparently I have been running them underinflated. I have been running them at 32psi.

Yes, you have been running them underinflated - that would certainly explain your impression of "soft sidewalls."

I strongly encourage you to increase your cold* tire pressure to the recommended 38psi.

*According to Toyota:

Tire Pressure vs. Tire Temperature

Tire temperature is dependent on “cold” tire pressure, driving distance and speed, ambient temperature and road surface temperature. As the temperature of the tire changes, air in the tire expands and contracts, changing the tire’s air pressure. The cold tire pressure for all Toyota models will vary and will need to be adjusted accordingly.

“Cold” tire pressure, as shown on the tire pressure label on our vehicles, is generally considered to be the pressure in a tire that has not been driven in the past 4 hours and has been parked outdoors.

HTH

 

[unclemat]

Yes, you have been running them underinflated - that would certainly explain your impression of "soft sidewalls."

I strongly encourage you to increase your cold* tire pressure to the recommended 38psi.

*According to Toyota:

Tire Pressure vs. Tire Temperature

Tire temperature is dependent on “cold” tire pressure, driving distance and speed, ambient temperature and road surface temperature. As the temperature of the tire changes, air in the tire expands and contracts, changing the tire’s air pressure. The cold tire pressure for all Toyota models will vary and will need to be adjusted accordingly.

“Cold” tire pressure, as shown on the tire pressure label on our vehicles, is generally considered to be the pressure in a tire that has not been driven in the past 4 hours and has been parked outdoors.

HTH

Adjusted the pressure to 38 psi (I had 34 psi before turns out, not 32/33). The difference is noticeable, definitely still a soft-walled tire, but it behaves now better on highway sweeps or on-ramps taken at a higher speed. Still prefer an LT tire I think a handling wise for this truck, but this puts the tire into okay category vs. borderline.

Turns out proper tire pressure matters. Can't believe I missed the ISO vs. P rating. There should be an easier way to deal with this than referring to some obscure tire manual.

 

[JohnPW]

Adjusted the pressure to 38 psi (I had 34 psi before turns out, not 32/33). The difference is noticeable, definitely still a soft-walled tire, but it behaves now better on highway sweeps or on-ramps taken at a higher speed. Still prefer an LT tire I think a handling wise for this truck, but this puts the tire into okay category vs. borderline.

Turns out proper tire pressure matters. Can't believe I missed the ISO vs. P rating. There should be an easier way to deal with this than referring to some obscure tire manual.

I agree that there should be easy instructions for finding the correct pressure when changing tire loads and sizes, given how often people make a tire change on trucks. Happy we have HTH on this site.

Keep in mind that there’s nothing stopping you from raising the cold tire pressure above 38psi if you prefer a stiffer ride. I run above spec pressure when towing (and below spec pressure when off road). It’s not critical that you stay precisely on that psi. Ambient temperature and load will cause variations anyway.

 

[coleAK]

I live in the Southeast and, if I encounter ice, it's usually snow or freezing rain that turns to ice, melts into slush, and re-freezes as ground temps swing over and under 32° F. I would not really consider running a winter tire, but I am curious how the Defender LTX M/S and M/S2 compares to All Terrain segment standards like the Falken AT4W and BFG KO3 in these conditions. Does anybody have a basis for comparison?

KO2s suck on ice and packed snow. I run KO2s as my summer tire, as soon as this set wears out (I had limited choices when I needed summers spring of 2022) I’m going back to LTX m/s. Almost everyone I know that run the same tires year round up here run defender LTX m/s or nokian outposts.

 

[bloc]

I agree that there should be easy instructions for finding the correct pressure when changing tire loads and sizes, given how often people make a tire change on trucks.

Tire Pressure Calculator

Easy to use tire pressure calculator. Use our tire pressure calculator to calculate the new tire pressure needed when changing tire sizes.

tiresize.com

 

[JohnPW]

Tire Pressure Calculator

Easy to use tire pressure calculator. Use our tire pressure calculator to calculate the new tire pressure needed when changing tire sizes.

tiresize.com

Helpful, but the above calculator doesn’t seem to calculate ISO Metric XL loads.