Should I buy an 80, costs of ownership?

[BrettinSanAntonio]

Perspective a an EX-Land Rover owner

I’ve recently come back to the Land Cruiser (LX450) from four years of Land Rover ownership.

Since the late 1980’s to 2001, I owned a ’82 FJ60, ’85 4Runner, ’86 FJ60 and a ’95 FZJ80. All were wonderful vehicles, had their issues but always got me home. However, I couldn’t find a strong Toyota community to share knowledge, ownership enjoyment and trail runs.

Land Rover offered strong dealer support and a large local club of Land Rover owners. So, I defected and purchased a ’95 Land Rover Discovery. I owned that discovery for two years and during that time I never had a major failure; HOWEVER, it did nickel and dime me as its own personal, sick hobby. There was always some little item that needed repair or replacement like, window controllers (small computer that controls the windows), engine sensors galore and interior trim components. These items are NOT inexpensive even from non-dealer sources.

My second Land Rover was a much better experience. I found a high mileage ’95 Range Rover Classic (older, square body) that had an impeccable service record to accompany it. The previous owner spent an average of $8000 a year on maintenance during his ownership. This gentleman had money and took it to the dealer for EVERYTHING.
I enjoyed the three years I owned this vehicle; however, again, it required constant maintenance. I spent an hour or two a week in the garage changing fluids, adjusting things, cleaning carbon out of the intake, etc., etc.
I decided to sell the Rangie in favor of something a bit larger with more seating and better reliability, etc.

So, here I am. Happy to be back with a Land Cruiser (’97 LX450). I was able to find one with 112K miles and all the bells and whistles (OME lift, 35” BFG MT, ARB front bumper with Warn 9000 winch, rear Kaymar bumper with spare tire carrier and extendable work light, dual battery setup, factory lockers, center locker button, center drink holder, CB radio, sweet Kaymar roof rack, four Piaa bumper mounted lights and other goodies on the interior) for $15K. At this point, all I need are rock sliders and I’m done. The maintenance was fairly good but I will have to do the PHH soon and a tune up. I’m about a two and a half banana mechanic and can probably do most of the maintenance myself.

When I look at the cost of parts for Land Rovers compared to Land Cruisers, I find Toyota much less expensive to service and maintain BY FAR. Plus, Land Rovers have become so computer dependent that engine codes and common maintenance REQUIRES a trip to the dealer to reset the vehicle computers. With an hours labor charge I might add. All Land Rover vehicles require this proprietary software for service.

I don’t mean to knock Land Rovers, they do have some fine points and are quite surprising off-road; however, you will pay for driving a thoroughbred instead of a workhorse.

My Land Cruiser is FAR less expensive to maintain and much more reliable.

Now I just have to find some local, South Texas Toyota people to gather for the sake of Toyota love.

 

[zcruiser]

One thing I want to point out about owning a Cruiser that was alluded to by Brett. I am fortunate to have cruiser owners around (when needed), but the biggest savings by far in my book is ih8mud.com! Talk about saving money on cost of ownership! Find out how to fix it here, get timely expert (and oh yeah, FREE) advice when you get stuck, and buy the parts at a discount from members (used or new).

So a big THANKS to Woody and his posse for lowering our cost of ownership, and if you haven't bought a star after getting something of value out of this board, yer a loser!

 

[Bearcat80]

I think the $1000 a year maintenance is way high unless your paying someone else to do the work.

You could rebuild both front and rear axles and swap the rotors and brake pads and Flush fill, change fluids. spark plugs, dist cap, rotor, wires, PCV, fuel filter, starter contacts, PHH could be done all for less than $1000 for someone who wants to do the work themselves.

Then after that, it's simply oil changes, lube and an occasional flush.

Maybe one year a new fan clutch ~$120 or and intake hose.

A head Gasket is about $500 if you do it yourself or $1500 to have someone else do it (includes head work).


I really don't think the PM is bad once you get it baselined.

My experience exactly. I bought at 125k, and did all that Romer lists above, thanks CDan, plus a window regulator and less the head gasket, which is scheduled for next month. Well under 1K. Mine was bought for 8K with a lift already under it and I found a used ARB for cheap. I find the parts to be reasonable compared to the Cummins and powerstroke parts I'm used to buying. All in all, less than 10k for a rig that will wheel with 35k rubicons is a pretty good deal. The gebneral point of the thread is spot on, though, if you don't wan't a rig to maintain as a hobby, buy somerthing else, or something newer.

 

[BPMOU]

I just read this thread for the first time and I must say that I have been driving several diffrent full size trucks looking at getting rid of my 80. The guy I deal with is a broker so I driven each for a few days at a time, all of them except one were still within the 36K factory warranty. Not one of these vehicles was worth the price that they bring on the market except for the diesel trucks. While I could use more room for hunting, I've came to the realization that the 80 even at 10 years old is still a better built vehicle than any of the American trucks. Since I am a little late to party, now I can take the extra money that I was going to spend each month and get caught up on the maintence. So the true cost of ownership is still less than a new or used vehicle.

 

[tech_dog]

I think the best thing about owning a LC is that it doesn't have to end. Each and every LC, regardless of age, is still a great vehicle to own as long as you've kept it in good condition.

I can't imagine liking a vehicle more than I like my 13 year old Landcruiser, even though it would surely sell for less than $10K. These things are classics, and classics never get old.

The real savings is being able to drive a 10, 20, 30, or even 40 year old vehicle that's still loaded with quality, capability, and character.

Even if you spend several thousand during a rough maintenance year, it's still far less expensive than a new car that would have much less personality.

And to be honest, my rig has been extremely reliable over the years. Sure, it sucks brakes, and the knuckle jobs are a bitch, but other than that there's been nothing out of the ordinary. I had one stretch where it blew through $2K as a dealer chased some CEL's, but beyond that it's been extremely reliable.

I have an '06 100, but it's the '94 80 that's really proven itself and earned the spot on my avatar.

T.

 

[Lugboot]

One thing I want to point out about owning a Cruiser that was alluded to by Brett. I am fortunate to have cruiser owners around (when needed), but the biggest savings by far in my book is ih8mud.com! Talk about saving money on cost of ownership! Find out how to fix it here, get timely expert (and oh yeah, FREE) advice when you get stuck, and buy the parts at a discount from members (used or new).

So a big THANKS to Woody and his posse for lowering our cost of ownership, and if you haven't bought a star after getting something of value out of this board, yer a loser!

I have to agree with this as well--reading and learning on this board really helped me with my decision to seriously look for for an 80. The information here is priceless for making you realize you can do a lot of the maintenance yourself. I, for one, am definitely looking forward to tinkering and learning more once I finally get one!! Definitely need to send a big shout-out to those that make this forum worthy!

 

[Mike S]

My '96 FZJ80 is my third Landcruiser. I started with a new, off the showroom floor FJ40 in 1973 - $3800 delivered. I drove it for about 15 years, sold it to a friend for $2500. Bought a 60 (Great truck!), drove it for a couple years, sold it, and bought the 80 about a year ago. The previous owner had kept meticulous records since new, and made a number of very useful modifications. I has about 125K miles on it currently, and I expect to drive it to well over 250K miles.

For my long distance driving, for negotiating nasty patches with confidence, and for comfort, the 80 is superior to anything I have ever driven. The only thing needed o make it perfect for my needs would be an 1HD-T diesel engine... but I can certainly live with the 1HZ.

 

[Brian Macgyver]

I see resale mentioned as an issue. WHY?
I love my 80 for reliability, safety, and it goes anywhere. I don't care about resale because I am not stupid enough to ever part with it! It has already been rolled and I don't think anything short of a freight train could damage it beyond repair. Can you spell TOUGH TRUCK?
Other cars may come and go, but an 80 is forever. You cannot put a price on that.

 

[JMays]

I hate surprises (at least the ones that don’t involve nude women and cakes) …

A big relief to me has been the reliability of these vehicles, even the problems seem occur on schedule. I’m not that flush with cash or a big do-it-yourselfer and knowing what is coming and about when it’s due has allowed me has allowed me to plan my finances accordingly. I’d rather know I will need to drop $1,200 in six months than wake up to a vehicle that won’t start or one that doesn’t make it home at night

 

[94 Newbie]

Interesting Thread, indeed !

I have also wondered how in the world anyone could come up w/ the coin to buy a ~ 45K vehicle new in '94 and pay it off over 3 years !

(I read that somewhere -was that you, cruiserdan ? )


At any rate, sounds like it would have been a sound investment as in theory for the next 7 years/70K miles all that would be needed was routine maintenance.

Now, to mine - bought this year , w/ 168K on the clock. Interior was really clean, everything worked, and it was bigger - and nicer - than a 4 Runner , which is what we were initially chasing. I bought it not having a clue in the world what it was other than a medium sized well known ( world over ) 4 X .

If only I had known about the locker option !

At any rate, my hope is that with only PM I can make it to 200K , or at least until I have my 36 month note paid off.

I will do most maintenance myself - from what I have seen, the front axle teardown is not all that much worse than any of the Ram Chargers or Blazers, or Suburbans I have owned previously.

Well, I will need a bronze hammer for those cone washers, but I can live w/ that. I already have the 4 wheel drive bearing lock tool, if what fits a Sub fits this, and if not, that one was relatively cheap.

I would probrably try my hand at the PHH , but a head gaket - Gawd forbid - is beyond what I would try.

IF ! I had to replace birfs , or the HG , my dollar theories are all out the window, but I hope that my PM costs would be less than 1K a year.

Gas is another matter ... ;p

I have never owned a Japanese vehicle before, although the ex did have a Nissan Sentra. I find myself laughing that some of the same little glitches that occur on domestics occur on my LC, but at the same time am absolutley amazed at the beefiness of the axles ( full floating rears on basically a 1/2 ton ) compared w/ a domestic, and the potential longevity of the tranny ( designed for a 30K lb bus from my readings here ! ) , and of course the wearability of the straight 6 engine.

I find myself driving this as often as I can, to the chagrin of my wallet vis a vis the gas store.

However, I did not buy it for mileage, either - it replaced a '91 Sub that was sold to a buddy who was desperate for a rig, and I have had several full time 4 x's before.

So, in conclusion, vote for me - um, err I would have to say that an uneducated guesstimate is $ 500.00 a year PM , and who knows in the event of a catastrophic failure.

My .02 !


Britt

 

[Daddymax]

1st timer

Thanks Woody. long time FJ80 owner but new to the boards. I am doing my research to take our old ass & trash hauler into a great truck for my son to drive. This is a very valuable resource for information on a great vehicle.

 

[FJnAK]

Thanks for the info

I bought my FJ 40 a 4 years ago after wanting to own one since I was little and rode in my uncle's. Then as my family has grown, I've decided to get an FZJ80. Thanks for all the info, I look forward to owning and wheeling one of these quality machines.

 

[JimmyK]

Really well Said Dan, thank you for that. There is no price that can be placed on contentment and peice of mind. I drive my Cruiser with more joy then any of our cars below.. and it was purchased for 13% of the cost that the S500 was...

 

[Beowulf]

I drive my Cruiser with more joy then any of our cars... Below is our stable:

So, where is the Land Cruiser?

-B-

 

[JimmyK]

So, where is the Land Cruiser?

-B-

Updated, the cruiser is too big for my city townhouse, we usually keep it at our regular home.

 

[Slomo]

Very well put, I could not agree more. I have been lusting after an 80 series since they first offered the factory e-lockers in 93. I could not come close to affording one then or since untill I got ahold of my current baby. I consider the current cost an absolute bargain for a vehicle with the capability, comfort and reliability that Toyota's and especially the Land Cruisers are famous for. To think that the care and upkeep of one should be relative to the purchase price is preposterous.

I personally like to maintain and fix it before it breaks, and that peace of mind when you are in the middle of nowhere and even further from parts is "priceless" to quote a current ad campain. Those of us that are not original owners are simply smart enough to take over a vehicle that the majority seem to think of as used up at 100k miles.

 

[prossett]

If I compare OEM parts prices with other manufacturer OEM parts, Toyota parts are cheaper and always in stock - and then the LC rarely breaks down, it just needs regular maintenance and it'll run forever.

In the USA it might be different, but over here the LC and also other Toyotas are not expensive to run, and that's why they are so popular.

 

[webelk6]

#1

There have been a few recent threads where questions have come up looking for cheap stuff or easy answers. In response to that I would like to offer some observations.

The 80 Series Land Cruiser was, at the time, Toyota's Flagship vehicle in the United States. When new the 80 sold from the mid 30 thousand dollars (for 91-92 year model examples) to the low to mid 40's (for 93-94) to a bit past 50 thousand dollars for the last production 97 models.

During the production run the 80 rarely sold for less than the factory sticker and often for more. They were always in short supply and coveted by dealers. I bought mine new and it took me almost a full year to get it.

Obviously the "new" has worn off for virtually all of the original owners so they parted with them and we now see second, third, and even fourth, owners showing up on the board.

Those of you who fall into the latter category did not buy a 10,000 dollar or 9,000 dollar or even a substantially cheaper vehicle. You bought a used vehicle that, in many cases, sold for close to 50 grand new.

The care and feeding of a top-end luxury vehicle DOES NOT depreciate like the vehicle does. Parts and labor costs only go up.

The only way to really be able to afford one is to enter into the relationship with eyes wide open and the commitment to learn to work on it and care for it yourself. Or, have the resources to pay somebody WHO KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS the vehicle to look after it on your behalf.

It should further be mentioned that to morph an 80 into what ammounts to the most capable production 4WD vehicle ever offered by any manufacturer will cost at least 6000 bucks, if you supply the sweat. This only takes into consideration the mods, not the PM's to get the vehicle up to speed.




That being said, my relationship with my 80 has been one of the most satisfying parts of my life.


D-

I have been a toyota enthusiast since '85. i could affor my first lc in '03 which was my '94 and it is THE best vehicle I have ever driven.

When I went to the dealership I showed up in my '88. My wife is like "they aren't going to take this for a trade." I said , " you are right." And I walked outta their with a mint '80 series with a 150k miles for $8k.

I have the original sticker for $42+k miles as i have the 'towing package'. I feel I have the ultimate rig for me, my wife, my 4 kids and my 32 acres, and my pop up .

Thanks dan for this thread.
Scott

 

[Romer]

B- had a great write-up in response to Code Reds concerns about issues with the 80 series. I didn't want to lose it, so I will qoute him here.

CodeRed,

I'll take a little time here since you are reticent about the decision to move from a proven (to you) to an unknown 80-Series Land Cruiser.

Regarding the brakes:
These are large, heavy (3-tonne) vehicles. They are not "easy" on the front brakes if you are using the stock 80-Series pads. The solution is to use the 100-Series pads as most of us have done. You will easily get 30k, maybe 40k on a set of front pads. About the same with rear pads. This assumes normal use and good rotors.

Regarding the luxury amenities:
Air conditioning. Few problems here. We hear of the occasional leak and other isolated problems. I would say on a scale of 1 to 10 the A/C system is a 9 for reliability (10=No Failures, 1=Many failures.)

Power Seats. Few problems here. The only common problem is a plastic gear that can come off. Reliability scale=9. If you are a big guy you can get seat extenders from landtank. The leather on the driver seat can crack with age. Replacements are available or you can cheaply cover with cloth, or you can repair the panel.

Cruise Control. Very Few problems here. The CC actuator is not serviced and a new one is expensive. Reliability scale=9. There are some DIY "fixes" that a dealer wouldn't do but we have found these fixes will resolve the few problems that are reported.

Power Windows. Some common problems here; primarily with the driver window. Slow operation, poor electrical contacts, window coming out of frame. Reliability scale=7. Almost all of these issues are DIY fixes involving lubing the tracks, readjusting the actuator assembly, cleaning the electrical contacts, etc. Parts are available and not too spendy. If you go in to the electric switches, do the auto-up mod.

Moonroof (sunroof.) Some common problems here with leaks and wind noise. Both are easily fixed. The most common problem reported is water coming down the headliner. This is due to crud getting stuck in the drains and is an easy fix at no cost. Reliability scale=7 (mainly because a lot of people park under trees.) Those of us with no trees and no rain are clueless on this problem. The operation of the moonroof is rarely a problem. The mechanicals and the electrics are virtually foolproof. Reliability scale on this part would be a 9.

Fuel Injection.
The system is a superior design but like any engine, it sees a lot of use/abuse and must be maintained. Common issues (not problems) are dirty throttle body and the rare clogged/leaking fuel injector. Reliability scale on the entire system I would say is 8.5 There are a lot of pieces in the system. IAC, TPS, MAF, intake hose, injectors, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, fuel filter, fuel pump relay. We see a fair number of issues here but nothing out of the ordinary. There is a lot of wiring in the FI system and most of it goes through the EFI fuse. A wiring failure will blow this fuse and this will disable the vehicle. On the very few "tow it to the shop" stories that we hear; this blown EFI fuse is a likely culprit.

Computers.
There are several computers (ECM/ECU) in the 80-Series. There are very few reported failures with 1 exception. The ECM in the '93s is prone to failure and expensive to replace. Its a crapshoot on whether or not it will fail and when they fail the vehicle will continue to run but it throws codes. All other years have virtually no ECM problems and that includes the tranny ECM, the air bag computers, the diff-lock computers, and all other computers in the 80-series. Reliability scale=9 ('93 =6)

That covers the things that you mentioned. Now, I will raise the skirts and tell you of many known (to me) problems with the 80-Series. I won't elaborate on most of these but you can find more information by doing a search. Please read the summary at the end because I want to make a point.

PHH - There is a small hose that is difficult to access. It will fail with age and, like any coolant hose, the results can cause extensive damage if the engine is overheated. Inspect this hose (~$10) on your new purchase and replace it as PM and you'll be golden.

P0401 - The EGR system is problematic, esp. on the '96 & '97 models. Many of us have thrown this code and it can be frustrating to get it fixed. However, the repair cost is not bad (~$200) if you take it to a dealer and let them deal with it. This will not disable the vehicle and you can drive for months with a P0401.

Engine harness - The engine wiring harness passes close to the EGR valve and over time, the heat will melt wires giving indications of a fuel injection problem. You can be proactive and wrap this harness with good heat tape (~$20) and you may never have an issue. Most failures have not disabled the vehicle but the engine will run rough. If the failure shorts the EFI fuse then troubleshooting is a little more difficult.

Intake hose - There is a rubber intake hose that goes from the air cleaner assembly to the intake. This hose cracks with age. The vehicle will run poor but it is unlikely that this will disable the engine. The fix is a new hose ~$80.

Cooling system issues - The cooling system on the 80 will do an excellent job of keeping the engine temps at the design specs if it is in good condition. If it isn't, (like ANY vehicle) you can cause yourself a lot of problems. The solution is to baseline your used 80s cooling system (radiator, coolant, thermostat, hoses, rad cap, belts, etc.) and make sure the entire cooling system is operating at 100%. We have seen very few problems with the water pump.

Drive line issues - About the only thing we see here is the front axle service. The front knuckles should be properly lubricated at 60k mile intervals. This is not a difficult job but it is time consuming and messy. A proper front axle service will cost you about $300 (DIY) in parts and supplies. You will repack wheel bearings at this time, replace knuckle bearings, and repack the birfield joint (CV) during this service. You should repack front and rear wheel bearings at 30k mile intervals.

Starter issues - The Toyota starter is a simple device and is easy to R&R on the 80-Series. There are replaceable contacts and a copper plunger. They fail at ~90k miles and need to be rebuilt (~$25 parts). You should easily get 2 rebuilds which would mean you'll need a new starter around 300k miles. Not too shabby if you ask me.

Head Gasket issues - (Saved the worst for last) This is an enigma to many of us. We have seen poorly maintained vehicles approach (and exceed) 300k miles with the original HG. We have heard of HG failures in '97 (the newest) models at 50k miles. We have had original owners with impeccable maintenance that had a failed HG. We have had original owners with impeccable maintenance and ADDED SUPERCHARGER with the original HG. The statistics are all over the place and (my opinion) is that it's another crap shoot. Yours may last and it may fail tomorrow and it may have nothing to do with prior maintenance.

The good news is that the repair job is well documented (thanks to Dougie, Landtank, and others) and you can DIY in a long weekend and ~$500 in parts. Many of us would recommend that you do the HG as PM if you are concerned about it. Personally, I am watching mine like a hawk (aftermarket temp gauge) and at the first signs of impending failure, the HG will be replaced. I may also do it as a PM this spring but I said that last spring too... so I dunno. Mine has 165k on it with the original HG.

I think this about covers 90% of the things that we discuss in this forum and I want to make a point at this time: It is unlikely that your vehicle will "suffer" from all of these issues. Even if it does, you can do everything yourself and the costs are not that bad.

-B-

 

[cruiserdan]

An excelent summary Beo. Thank you Ken for adding it here.

I would like to add a bit of info re the following observation:


"......<Computers.
There are several computers (ECM/ECU) in the 80-Series. There are very few reported failures with 1 exception. The ECM in the '93s is prone to failure and expensive to replace. Its a crapshoot on whether or not it will fail and when they fail the vehicle will continue to run but it throws codes. All other years have virtually no ECM problems and that includes the tranny ECM, the air bag computers, the diff-lock computers, and all other computers in the 80-series. Reliability scale=9 ('93 =6).....> "

The "problem" computers are confined to the first 8 months of 1993 production, September 1992 to April 1993. May 93 and later have the superdeeded computer from the factory. Some early 93's have already had the computer replaced so it is possible to find an early 93 that has already been "fixed". In order to verify this you will need to access the computer (above the glove box) and look at the part number tag on it. If it is an 89661-60221 it is the new version and you are golden.