Rust removal - FAST, CHEAP - WOW.

[FJ40disciple]

Hey all;
Well, I use Mud ALLOT, but don't speak up too much, as most of you guys are echelons above me. I thank you all very much for this site, and the info - it is indispensable.
Anyway - I finally have something that may be of use for many, and hopefully it is not something that everyone but me knows about (Hate inventing new stuff that is already out there).
The problem I faced is that I needed to cleanup, and prep my engine (out of rig) for paint, but I can't sand blast as the sand has a habit of getting into everything (did my frame, rims, front axle - but a full rebuilt immediately after to clean out all sand as well as rebuild). No, could,t blast the engine, so I was faced with wire brushing the whole thing (Trans case/gearbox still attached). I started this, and it is effective, but you just can't get into the small spots. I fired up the 2500 psi washer, tried the nooks, but still not good enough. The wire brush was time consuming as well.
Now about 2 weeks ago I was using POR 15 and the stuff you get with it (Man that stuff is amazing!! - but thats another story). Anyway the "prep" stuff they have works amazing for preping for paint... I noticed when I was using it (I ran a cleaning business for many years), that it had a hint of the smell much like the acid we used for cleaning toilets smelled like...Huh. So out I went and picked up a $5 bottle of the acid, and tried that today.
Man- I sprayed that stuff on, and the chemical reaction to the rust was impressive. - At this point I gotta say - I HOLD NO RESONSIBLITY FOR HOW YOU GUYS TRY THIS - THIS STUFF IS WICKED - iT WILL BURN YOU BAD - BE VEEERY CAREFUL. The funny part is that I was fairly confident working with this stuff, and have been sprayed over the years on the arms a few times. I was outside, and the "wisp" that comes up from the spray (using spray bottle) is a cloud of what feels like welding spatter after 2 seconds - I was "dancing" around my lot a few times - neighbors thought I was nuts.
Be sure to have a garden hose for you, and a pressure washer for your steel. rinse both completely a number of times with close HIGH pressure. WATCH WIRING, RUBBER, ETC, and keep rinsed. Keep spaying rust with fresh acid, and it litterally falls off in a yellow fluid. DO NOT DO THIS INSIDE - YOU NEED FRESH AIR FOR THIS.
The result was astounding - for $5 I had the entire power plant ready to hit with the metal ready, then POR.
Note - I did notice that different metals reacted differently to the acid - the regular steel parts(Front pully, Time chain cover, side panel on block) did exteremly well, and gave up almost all rust. The cast iron (block, gearbox) took a bit more acid, but went very well - the gearbox, and bell housing went yellow afterward, but buffed off easly. The Trans case came up like new - wow, and the other aluminum stuff was not affected except cleaner (it really reacted to this stuff - white foam).
Again, thanks Mud, and if you try this, please be careful - but man I was blown away.

- If this posting is in the wrong place, please advise, or delete or move it - no worries.

I actually have some pics, but no idea how to post them with this thread.. (PHOTOS BELOW IN THREAD #24 "OK here we go with photos")
Cheers
Mike.

 

[hellbent40]

whats the acid called by chance?

 

[FJ40disciple]

Acid info (the leagl stuff)

Just went to my washroom and grabbed a bottle - works great on all rust stains, but watch out on your chrome - it eats it.

The fluid itself is NOT the cream crap that you can buy at the supermarket - It's usually available at the professional janitorial places, and in a sealed heavy plastic bag (over top of the bottle). The fluid is runny as water, and whitish.

The bottle reads as follows:
Description: An extremely powerful hydrochloric acid based toilet and urinal cleaner designed to remove stubborn stains due to rust and calcium deposits.
The directions tell you to squirt it on, and scrub it...
Then the cautions start - they pretty well take up the entire rest of the bottle - along with full WHIMS (Canada), and pictures of "poison, and people and steels getting "melted" -

I did mention to be careful with this stuff - oh, and look for a sec when grabbing your beer... best to keep these two well separated...
Cheers.

 

[FJ40disciple]

One more safety issue with this stuff...

Don't mix any other chemicals with this stuff. We did have an "incident" in the past where a toilet was "blown up" when this stuff was in the bowl and ammonia was added - wasn't my business, but heard all about it - use only this stuff, and rinse very well.
Cheers

 

[D'Animal]

Toilet cleaner on the engine.

Sounds interesting.



I plan on trying muratic acid since my 2,500psi steam cleaner only did so much.

 

[FJ40 TOOLMAN]

Try liquid bowl cleaner from Smart and Final.You need to get the one with HYDROCHLORIC ACID AND OXALIC ACID

 

[FJ40disciple]

Yeh I know - sounds weird...

But... I am a little unconventional at the best of times. and yes, I have used muratic acid in the past on grout and stone tile work in the past business. The reason we had to use this on the stonework was because the flooring was so expensive, and the toilet stuff discolored the grout, or actually dissolved it completely. I recall that the muratic acid didn't quite put "the burn" to me like that toilet stuff. As it goes, I am thinking any kind of acid will do something - just don't leave it on overnight - did you watch ALIENS...
Cheers

 

[lostmarbles]

Don't mix any other chemicals with this stuff. We did have an "incident" in the past where a toilet was "blown up" when this stuff was in the bowl and ammonia was added - wasn't my business, but heard all about it - use only this stuff, and rinse very well.
Cheers

Hmmmmm

And urine contains ammonia ... Right?

 

[FJ40disciple]

Not sure how much yours has, but...

Further on the "warnings" on the list...

"Contains acid - do mix with any Ammonia, Bleach, or any other chemical..."

So yah, if you are peein 100% ammonia, I would advise not doing it in a bowl full of this stuff
Cheers

 

[FJ40disciple]

Thinking back..

From what I recall, the explosion was set off by a cig. butt. or match to light on tossed into the mix- so cutting torches and grinders are probably ill advised as well - the stuff is not combustible as it is though.

 

[Michael Hanson]

Agreed use only in a well vented area! Many people are allergic to these two acids! I also sugest wearing a charcoal 3-m filter on your face,gloves,and eye goggles. MIke

 

[FJ40disciple]

Here here...

I had the had the glasses, and gloves - and if there is potential reaction - yes, go with the mask - As well, if you are the "fidgety" type, cover any other skin - got me on the neck and forearms, The forearms are just a reminder of the past business, but man, that neck is sensitive - Seriously - this stuff almost instantly burns anything in liquid, mist, or fume form. As well, the warnings outline that if you "ingest it - its fatal" - they don't elaborate - so- LOCKED away from kiddies!!!
Cheers

 

[Flash1034]

Its muriatic acid in very low concentrate. FYI.

Flash

 

[FJ40disciple]

Uh oh...

You mean to tell me there is something out there (off the shelf) thats multiple x's stronger?? - Man stay away from that stuff guys. - question - what kind of container do you ship something like that in?

 

[romey]

this stuff okay to use under the rig, everywhere, and around the diffs/axles/etc..?? say put the truck up on stands and spray away and hose away quickly?? just curious...

glad it worked out for ya fj40disciple!

 

[BeratE]

Have any shots of the process?

 

[bsmith123]

POR 15 Metal Prep

I read on MUD that POR metal prep was basically OSPHO. You can get that by the Gallon at ACE

I stripped evertyhing as clean as I could with wire wheels and
3m rust and paint stripping wheels

When I used the OSHPO it did seem to have about the same effect as the POR metal prep. But it worked over a little time with an acid smell but no big reactions or heavy fumes, sounds like what you are using might be a little excessive

Here is a product description
"Ospho resists and retards rust while providing a sound base for paint. Recommended for use under oil base paint or primer. One gallon of Ospho covers 600 sq. feet. It dries overnight, makes a lasting bond between rusted metal and paint. (Note: Ospho is not actually a paint.) Contains phosphoric acid"



Heres a good primer on rust converters and removers to read
RUST PRIMER

This is an excerpt from it

Oxalic acid has also been used. However, if you leave metal in these acids a bit too long, you will lose a significant amount of metal. Also, neither acid leaves a protective film behind. Oxalic acid opeartes to remove rust by forming a water-solable complex ion (called a chelate) around each iron ion. So do cyanide compounds. Both react likewise with the iron in your blood, meaning the oxalates are just as poisonous as the cyanides.

I am a little worried about the strong reaction and fumes you describe----just saying be careful cause not all acids are alike and I am no expert but to me a really strong and quick reaction may be a danger signal--just pays to be informed about what you are using

 

[lostmarbles]

.. One gallon of Ospho covers 600 sq. feet. It dries overnight, makes a lasting bond between rusted metal and paint. ....

I've found that I MUST wash off the "POR15 Metal Ready" (and preferrably scrub the surface at the same time too) otherwise the powder left behind (by the Metal Ready) will harm the adherence of the primer.

So I wash/scrub with clean water before leaving to dry overnight.

 

[JohnnyC]

When I used the OSHPO it did seem to have about the same effect as the POR metal prep. But it worked over a little time with an acid smell but no big reactions or heavy fumes, sounds like what you are using might be a little excessive

so this OSHPO is it a spray on and water rinse?

also you have used this under por15?

have you found that it gets all the rust...or do you have to do it several times?

 

[FJ40disciple]

Agreed - very excessive...

I totally agree, and fully back "bsmith" on the "excessive" statement - this stuff is really over the top. I am with him on having anyone try this that is not fully prepared. I did not want anyone getting hurt, and if it is a worry, as I said, please delete thread - absolutely NO worries from my end. No problem at all.

My logic was, that if it is use on toilets (it "smokes" in them too), goes right into our "recycled drinking water at the plant". As well, most of us 1/2 decent established "renovators" of these trucks have to work with far more dangerous things such as blast materials, poison paints - the stuff you can't feel hurting you. One of the advantages is the fact that you know this stuff is burning when it does (Cleaned toilets with it for 15 years). And when you smell it, it means you are inhaling it - and it stinks.

I am not a chemist by any means, and full appreciate all of the input from anyone who knows more about it.

I like the approach of Bsmith with the OSPHO? - yes this sounds more logical - ESPECIALLY when you are near wiring, and not dealing with big heavy rusty metal. I would not use this stuff anywhere near wiring, or other small parts, as the acid my get into a wiring plug, not get rinsed, and dissolve the "tab" - that would suck. I had a big "hunk" of metal, full acces to rinse every angle, and no wiring that was not getting relpaced. I wouldn't use it under my business trucks - no way. I will use it under the trailer I am stripping to the frame, and overhauling. (so "romey" - I wouldn't chace it man). Especially if you are laying on the ground spraying upward...go with the stuff Bsmith suggests!

I will go to my bay now, and get some more good picks, and do another test on a rusty pice to show effects. I will then spend tonight (maybe all of it) referring to the FAQ to learn more about cumpooter and get me pictures for you - I will stay calm, I will stay calm...

Cheers all - and go with the OSPHO - I am getting some for my business truck - thanks Bsmith!