RTI Ramp/Travel pics, lift changes, sway bars...for reference (1 Viewer)

[FJBen]

Just starting a thread for reference for newbies, questions whatever... These are my findings on the only "static" environment I could find. A ramp. The ramp is at at least 30+ degrees...pretty steep. I'm using this to see where suspension binds, what spots on the vehicle are rubbing and what improved with changes.

Vehicle was unlocked in high range for all tests, driven up until wheelspin/lift occured. I didn't measure becuase I could find an accurate way to measure it at each attempt. I think in the pics you can see definite changes.

First 2 pics:
Stock Lift, 285's

 

[FJBen]

Next 2 pics:
4" Lift (Slee Offroad/Ome hybrid, L shocks) 35" Trxxus, stock arms, no rear swaybar

 

[FJBen]

Next 2 pics:
4" Lift, Slee Caster Arms, no rear sway bar

 

[FJBen]

I switched to driving up with the passenger tire for testing of the "hitch pin" mod...

Next 2 pics:
4" Lift, Slee arms, no front or rear sway bar

 

[FJBen]

next 3 pics:
4" Lift, Slee Arms, no front or rear sway bar, pin removed from front drivers side axle mount

 

[FJBen]

Observations:

1st off, stock: and 80 series doesn't flex too bad at all. I found the biggest change to be in removing both sway bars. That takes into account current shock length. Pulling the pin did get me a few more inches then maxed out the shock. I would like to do one more test to pull that drivers side shock to see just how far it would rotate/flex more. With the sway bars removed the rear just unseats the spring to where it's minimally loose with the shock maxxed out; and the front is right there as well. The front shock is ALMOST maxxed with the bars removed. very close actually.

I notice the body sways MUCH less during flex with the swaybars removed. The onroad isn't "that" bad with the front Slee 4" coils, J rears (I will go Slee 4" rears) and caster in the 4 degree range. Now if you really dart the steering wheel hard back and fourth the body does sway more for sure. In talking with Slee, they said try putting the rear swaybar back on to help control on road a little more, and then it will force the front more in articulation.

With no sway bars and the front pin pulled, hi-way was not fun. Definitley lots of mush and sway, too much to feel safe.

I'm definitely happy with the ride and flex of the no swaybars. If longer shocks allow for more droop with the pin pulled, then I'll continue my custom arm approach like Kevin, (tools r us) and beef up my mounting brackets and go with the 3 link. I'll get some action shots this weekend.

 

[DirtyHarry]

In talking with Slee, they said try putting the rear swaybar back on to help control on road a little more, and then it will force the front more in articulation.

Wouldn't no sway bar in the front and a bar in the rear cause oversteer in a panic maneuver? I don't think I would want to get sideways in a soft, top heavy Land Cruiser.

 

[FJBen]

Wouldn't no sway bar in the front and a bar in the rear cause oversteer in a panic maneuver? I don't think I would want to get sideways in a soft, top heavy Land Cruiser.

This was just Slee's advice for my setup, and not what they reccomend. As I said this is my setup and only for reference. Slee recommends and does keep the swaybars on to provide the best on-road performance of the vehicle.


That being said, I don't have any issues with the swaybars off, TO ME is it by far much more predictable without swaybars than my old lifted 55 was under emergence manuevers.

Does it sway more...sure
is there more danger for tipping than in a swaybar'ed 80??? you will never know as we are driving tall lifted vehicles and they will all perform differently with every emergency you get in. All depends on driver, traction etc...

 

[dclee]

Excellent Ben! Looking at the last pic, it seems pretty clear that the axle WANTS to twist outside of what the radius arms will allow.

I know this has been covered before, but no one seems to have come up with a definitive best practice: re. sway bar quick disconnects.

 

[cary]

That being said, I don't have any issues with the swaybars off, TO ME is it by far much more predictable without swaybars than my old lifted 55 was under emergence manuevers.

Does it sway more...sure
is there more danger for tipping than in a swaybar'ed 80??? you will never know as we are driving tall lifted vehicles and they will all perform differently with every emergency you get in. All depends on driver, traction etc...

Absolutely you are at a much greater risk of tipping without the sway bars. Sway bars will help to limit transitional body roll because they increase the effective spring rate. Removing them significantly increases the risk of harm to yourself and other others during accident avoidance (this includes others on the road, not just in your vehicle) as the limit has been removed allowing the weight to tranfer from side to side with much more ease and result in a rollover.

As far as it being more predictable than your old 55, what does that matter. It is like arguing that since old cars didn't have seatbelts and you are much better off wearing a lap belt than no seatbelt, it is good enough for you and you aren't going to bother with a shoulder belt?!!!

As far as a driver, traction, etc being factors in a rollover, yes they are; but why would you add in another factor against you when you don't have to?

If you are going to only run one sway bar, run the front. As someone mentioned a rear only sway bar will lead to massive oversteer at the limit.

Keep in mind that vehicle is going to feel and react much differently at the limit and past it when performing an emergency avoidance instead of just pushing it a little. To give you an idea, my Wife't BMW 525i understeers like a pig. I put Koni's in it, and played with tire pressures to help balance it out and it still plow. Drop the throttle in a corner and the line tightens a slight bit, but not much. Take that same car, come into a 40mph turn hard on the brakes down from a 100mph and that same car will oversteer while trail braking. The higher speed and weight transfer completely change the dynamics.

 

[Nay]

Absolutely you are at a much greater risk of tipping without the sway bars. Sway bars will help to limit transitional body roll because they increase the effective spring rate. Removing them significantly increases the risk of harm to yourself and other others during accident avoidance (this includes others on the road, not just in your vehicle) as the limit has been removed allowing the weight to tranfer from side to side with much more ease and result in a rollover.

Keep in mind that vehicle is going to feel and react much differently at the limit and past it when performing an emergency avoidance instead of just pushing it a little. To give you an idea, my Wife't BMW 525i understeers like a pig. I put Koni's in it, and played with tire pressures to help balance it out and it still plow. Drop the throttle in a corner and the line tightens a slight bit, but not much. Take that same car, come into a 40mph turn hard on the brakes down from a 100mph and that same car will oversteer while trail braking. The higher speed and weight transfer completely change the dynamics.

I hate this argument. It assumes a static environment.

Yet here we have a vehicle with much stiffer springs and shocks than stock, with far greater unsprung weight in the form of 35" load range E tires.

I have removed a front swaybar in the past (XJ with rear leafs) and Jeep swaybars are easy to disconnect. I removed it because it was causing so much undesirable suspension behavior in a highly modified application.

This same vehicle was virtually undriveable on a 2" OME suspension without the front swaybar, because the suspension still had the stock characteristics that the swaybar was designed for.

Now I am not saying you should remove your swaybars, because the big issue is liability. If you do this and cause an accident, the plaintiffs are going to go after you on this point when the likely injury point was your bull bar and suspension lift in combination.

But to categorically say that a a highly modified vehicle is safer with swaybars designed for the stock vehicle is preposterous. You would have to test it in a variety of conditions to know this.

How do you know that Slee's 4" kit hasn't achieved the total effective spring rate of the stock suspension plus swaybar....or greater...and is properly controlling the suspension while allowing for the greater unsprung weight that introduces undesirable loads onto the swaybar system, causing unpredictable emergency manuevers?

Ben's 55 argument is no less relevant than your wife's BMW. Put 35" trxus and a 4" lift on it and then report back.

Nay

 

[FJBen]

Absolutely you are at a much greater risk of tipping without the sway bars. Sway bars will help to limit transitional body roll because they increase the effective spring rate. Removing them significantly increases the risk of harm to yourself and other others during accident avoidance (this includes others on the road, not just in your vehicle) as the limit has been removed allowing the weight to tranfer from side to side with much more ease and result in a rollover.

As far as it being more predictable than your old 55, what does that matter. It is like arguing that since old cars didn't have seatbelts and you are much better off wearing a lap belt than no seatbelt, it is good enough for you and you aren't going to bother with a shoulder belt?!!!

As far as a driver, traction, etc being factors in a rollover, yes they are; but why would you add in another factor against you when you don't have to?

If you are going to only run one sway bar, run the front. As someone mentioned a rear only sway bar will lead to massive oversteer at the limit.

Keep in mind that vehicle is going to feel and react much differently at the limit and past it when performing an emergency avoidance instead of just pushing it a little. To give you an idea, my Wife't BMW 525i understeers like a pig. I put Koni's in it, and played with tire pressures to help balance it out and it still plow. Drop the throttle in a corner and the line tightens a slight bit, but not much. Take that same car, come into a 40mph turn hard on the brakes down from a 100mph and that same car will oversteer while trail braking. The higher speed and weight transfer completely change the dynamics.

here we go...maybe I should have put a MUCH LARGER DISCLAIMER in the fact that I'm not telling anyone to go out and pull their swaybars right now. I said this is MY setup and what I'M doing/testing. It was merely to document what changes can make. That being said:

***DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME, ALL CHANGES WERE MADE BY A PROFESSIONAL OR AN IDOT TO INCREASE TRAVEL ON HIS 80 SERIES. AGAIN DON"T MODIFY YOUR VEHICLE***

Lots of vehicles have swaybars...fact

TONS of people remove swaybars...FJ55's had swaybars...FJ60's didnt? FJ62's do...FZJ80's do.

Lots of coil sprung vehicles have swaybars...some function better with them removed than others. Jeep TJ's without swaybars are scarry. Wallow all around. MY 80 series with the Slee 4" springs doesn not wallow around...Does it lean a bit more YES...I'm not disagreeing with that. Does that mean it's going to flop or greatly increase my chances in an emergency manuever? I don't know...but could it add to the factor...possibly...could not as stiff sidewalled tires contribute? Worn suspension? Crappy shocks? Does a roof rack contribute more? How about that ARB filled with a warn winch? How safe is that to others???

hell I don't know for sure, but the answer is prolly yes...ALL FACTORS CONSIDERED, WHEN WE MOD OUR VEHICLES IT DOES CONTRIBUTE TO ADVERSE HANDLING SITUATIONS (how PC was that? )

TO ME, it is not dangerous...I did some panic stops, swerving on the road (OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE BY MYSELF, ONLY TO HURT FIELDS OF CORN IF SOMETHING HAPPENED) I didn't put any of this becuase I kept saying this is for MY setup and just for FLEX reasons...


so now with swaybars off...the vehicle stays more level on the trail. Could one now argue that I'm safer on the trail now as the vehicle stays more upright and could potentially prohibit a roll quicker???

I can tell you that stock, with 190K miles it felt like it had more wallow to it than it does now with the new suspension.


<<<This thread is just about the differences in suspension setups>>>

 

[cary]

Ben's 55 argument is no less relevant than your wife's BMW. Put 35" trxus and a 4" lift on it and then report back.

Nay

I beg to differ. My example was to point out that while a vehicle may feel one way while testing it in a controlled enviroment, it may in fact react very differently in an accident situation. I tend to get nervous about handling when people start talking about large lifts and then worry even more when they talk about disconnecting sway bars on these lifted vehicles.

 

[Mickldo]

I've been running no swaybars in my 80 for about 2 or 3 years now. I have a 4" lift and I drive it hard.

Yes it body rolls a little more than stock but you get used to it. Once you're used to it you don't even notice anything different about it. I find the handling on the limit predictable. I quite often push it hard enough into corners that the inside front wheel will come off the ground and smoke the tyre around the corner. It has never come close to feeling like it is about to roll over. Passengers in the car are freaked out at first due to the body roll but none complain about it feeling unsafe.

I think that with the higher spring rates and damping, as well as the 80s good dynamics, the need for swaybars is lessened compared to the stock setup.

I agree that swaybars would improve the safety on-road but until someone designs a good rear sway quick disconnect (fronts are easy) I will continue to run swaybarless.

IMHO, running no swaybars on an 80 improves off-road safety by enhacing its abilities.

 

[Aussie cruiser]

Are there any extensions available for the front bars. Would extending the mounts make a difference. I have seen a lot of Nissans with Exteded sway bar mounts that are fitted as part of the lift kit but I haven't seen any for Cruisers. On 2 occasions now I have had the Rubbers and the Washer pull through the hole in the mount. So at present I am driving with the front sway bar connected in 3 places rather than 4. I dosen't fell any different.

 

[alkaline747trio]

Of course there are front swaybar drop brackets! Were you raised under a rock?!? Try sleeoffroad.com and man-a-fre.com

 

[4dmalamute]

I like your pictures and points about the different lifts etc. Like you said, its about different types of lifts and NOT what is best for everyone. Thanks for the write up

 

[FJBen]

yeah didn't mean to open up a can o worms at all

just showing what is working for me. I'll be on the trail this weekend and report more about how it does.

 

[Tapage]

sway bars .. ? WTF it is . ? I put apart mines in my HJ-60 SO SR etc etc ..

My cruiser arent a Porsche .. I thought !

IMOP if you like your flex without swaybars, and you know what are you driving .. how and muy much faster .. big deal .. ?

again just IMOP 120 km/ my max speed is pretty good and enough fast for a trip.

My advice .. know your truck.

P.D. forgot Nice Flex Ben !!!

 

[T Y L E R]

Nice work Ben!


Everyone including the Newbs must appreciate all the threads you're getting rolling.






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