Roadside help request please

[Zakowsky]

On a trip from Calgary to Alaska and my 2003 LX470 started the N to D and N to R clunk. Not super bad, but worse when hot. Read all we can with limited cell signal, so have seen the common causes.

Question is what are our odds of making it 2000 kms? And second, can I disconnect the drive shaft at the transfer case and pull it off and drive home.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Mike

 

[jLB]

The “clunk” is driveline slack, and can come from multiple sources.

Some get temporary relief from greasing the yoke & U joints.

It could be the front differential mounting bushings.

It could be worn drive plate/CV axle splines.

Or it could be a combination of the above.

If you pull the front driveshaft, you’ll have to lock the center differential.

 

[Zakowsky]

The “clunk” is driveline slack, and can come from multiple sources.

Some get temporary relief from greasing the yoke & U joints.

It could be the front differential mounting bushings.

It could be worn drive plate/CV axle splines.

Or it could be a combination of the above.

If you pull the front driveshaft, you’ll have to lock the center differential.

Thanks. I am really at the roadside here so limited options. I greased the u joints and splines before we left. I guess I have to make a call if it will make it home, or should we be looking for a Uhaul and trailer. Thanks again.

 

[jLB]

Thanks. I am really at the roadside here so limited options. I greased the u joints and splines before we left. I guess I have to make a call if it will make it home, or should we be looking for a Uhaul and trailer. Thanks again.

When I purchased my (used) 99 LX, it had an awful “clunk” from all of the above, plus bad engine mounts, and more. It felt like part of the driveline was trying to come through the floorboard, when shifting between R & D (in either direction). I drove it ~200mi (322km) home, but tried to limit shocks to the driveline, and I was traveling on pavement. You’re talking about a good deal further, and I don’t know what road conditions, or timeline. I can’t just say “send it, it’ll be OK”. Any chance of limping to a better place to troubleshoot & fix?

 

[Zakowsky]

When I purchased my (used) 99 LX, it had an awful “clunk” from all of the above, plus bad engine mounts, and more. It felt like part of the driveline was trying to come through the floorboard, when shifting between R & D (in either direction). I drove it ~200mi (322km) home, but tried to limit shocks to the driveline, and I was traveling on pavement. You’re talking about a good deal further, and I don’t know what road conditions, or timeline. I can’t just say “send it, it’ll be OK”. Any chance of limping to a better place to troubleshoot & fix?

Thanks. I jacked up one front wheel and checked the play, it is about 20 degrees. No grinding noise, and it feels fine on the road. I am thinking of taking a shot at making it home.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Hard to judge failure without knowing how violent the clunk is. Most 100's that aren't over-the-top restored have some clunk. If the clunk is extreme, it could be the splines about to completely fail or just a totally trashed bushing.

If you can grab some video of the underside showing the diff and then showing the axles meeting the hub during the clunk, we can probable better advise.

Lots of clunks from R to D are no biggie on the 100. It's annoying, but nothing catastrophic. Not sure if you've got normal clunking or "disaster in the making" clunking.

 

[Mike NXP]

Thanks. I jacked up one front wheel and checked the play, it is about 20 degrees. No grinding noise, and it feels fine on the road. I am thinking of taking a shot at making it home.

It doesn't sound like anything has failed yet right? I suspect you can make it home as well

My go-to guess for this would be where the axle connects into the hub , the splines may be worn. Just depends on how worn. My cruiser clunked pretty bad for many years.
Below is a video on the possible issue along with how -to get yourself in 2WD if needed

Hub flange removal writeup - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/hub-flange-removal-writeup.794740/

 

[awesomeissquid]

Might be good to also pull the dust cap off to ensure the snap ring has not popped off.

 

[Zakowsky]

Thanks everyone, making a run for it, will update when back in civilization.

 

[Zakowsky]

Half way back, rest then the rest tomorrow. Something is clearly wrong, but still hopeful it will make it. Totally depressed the trip was scrubbed though, been gearing up for it for some time. Bought the LX with Alaska in mind, installed a dual battery, fridge etc. Guess I should have spent more time on running gear.

 

[jLB]

Half way back, rest then the rest tomorrow. Something is clearly wrong, but still hopeful it will make it. Totally depressed the trip was scrubbed though, been gearing up for it for some time. Bought the LX with Alaska in mind, installed a dual battery, fridge etc. Guess I should have spent more time on running gear.

Yep.

 

[Zakowsky]

True to the hype re these machines it got us home. So well in fact that now I am regretting that we didn’t go all the way, but of course hindsight is 20/20. It didn’t get any worse, in fact it might have even got a bit better. Over the next few days I will tear it down and post autopsy photos. Thanks again to everyone who responded; amazing to get support in minutes in the middle of nowhere! Now time for a beer!

 

[Zakowsky]

OK so the pathology report is not pretty, but could be worse I suppose. Once jacked up in the garage I would guess the differential is OK; some play but what I am used to it being on most cars. Taking the hubs apart revealed the main flaw I think. I could see a lot of play between the axle and the hub when I moved the wheel as soon as I took the dust cap off. This is the hub flange; the teeth are clearly messed up. The green arrow is where one should go straight down, but it is worn in to the right badly it seems. And at the red arrow at the bottom it looks like the worn in flat landings that other people have posted pictures of.

The CV axles are obviously not great at all, but I am hoping not tragic, what do people think? - a bit hard to see in this photo, sorry.

Could I get away with just replacing the hub flanges and get a reasonable amount of reliable miles out of it?

I don't have a problem with the idea of replacing the cv axles, but as I mentioned in my introductory post way back when, the vehicle has way more rust than I thought when I bought it, and the maintenance by the PO was pretty much nothing (original timing belt at 280,000 kms...). If I try and replace the cv shafts I am sure I will just break more than I can fix.

Thanks again,

Mike

 

[Eyedaho]

OK so the pathology report is not pretty, but could be worse I suppose. Once jacked up in the garage I would guess the differential is OK; some play but what I am used to it being on most cars. Taking the hubs apart revealed the main flaw I think. I could see a lot of play between the axle and the hub when I moved the wheel as soon as I took the dust cap off. This is the hub flange; the teeth are clearly messed up. The green arrow is where one should go straight down, but it is worn in to the right badly it seems. And at the red arrow at the bottom it looks like the worn in flat landings that other people have posted pictures of.
View attachment 3404516

The CV axles are obviously not great at all, but I am hoping not tragic, what do people think? - a bit hard to see in this photo, sorry.

View attachment 3404517
Could I get away with just replacing the hub flanges and get a reasonable amount of reliable miles out of it?

I don't have a problem with the idea of replacing the cv axles, but as I mentioned in my introductory post way back when, the vehicle has way more rust than I thought when I bought it, and the maintenance by the PO was pretty much nothing (original timing belt at 280,000 kms...). If I try and replace the cv shafts I am sure I will just break more than I can fix.

Thanks again,

Mike

If the inner CVs are good, you can purchase the outers from Toyota. The hub flanges are cheap though, so you could just replace those and see how she goes. Realistically though, if the front end hasn't been maintained then you will want to do a full service of your wheel bearings, seals, etc.

 

[suprarx7nut]

I would at least get yourself new outers and new hub flanges. Ideally, just brand new CVs and new hub flanges. Should be ~$1200-1500 in parts. If you're paying for labor, the cost difference is negligible between all new CVs and the half-new plus additional labor to assemble, IMO.

I have some play in my CVs and the "flat-spot" phenomenon isn't even visible. I can only imagine how clunky that felt for you.

I think you made the right call. Most your load surface is gone. I bet you're only a gravel-topped on-ramp or a small slippery obstacle away from totally failure on that. Once those splines let go you're in for an ordeal.

Thanks for following up with pictures. What a great example of detecting a problem before it grenades an entire trip. Cancelling//altering a trip is one thing, being stranded is much worse.

 

[Eyedaho]

I would at least get yourself new outers and new hub flanges. Ideally, just brand new CVs and new hub flanges. Should be ~$1200-1500 in parts. If you're paying for labor, the cost difference is negligible between all new CVs and the half-new plus additional labor to assemble, IMO.

I have some play in my CVs and the "flat-spot" phenomenon isn't even visible. I can only imagine how clunky that felt for you.

I think you made the right call. Most your load surface is gone. I bet you're only a gravel-topped on-ramp or a small slippery obstacle away from totally failure on that. Once those splines let go you're in for an ordeal.

Thanks for following up with pictures. What a great example of detecting a problem before it grenades an entire trip. Cancelling//altering a trip is one thing, being stranded is much worse.

I agree with you. The fact that (s)he already got the flanges pulled indicates a sufficient level of mechanical aptitude to tackle wheel bearings too. I'm just guessing based on the condition of the flanges/splines and the statement about lack of maintenance that there ain't been no one in there for a while. If OP is looking to strike out for AK then that seems like necessary service to perform, and doing it in the driveway will go a long way to expand the knowledge for potential roadside repairs.

 

[Zakowsky]

If the inner CVs are good, you can purchase the outers from Toyota. The hub flanges are cheap though, so you could just replace those and see how she goes. Realistically though, if the front end hasn't been maintained then you will want to do a full service of your wheel bearings, seals, etc.

I would at least get yourself new outers and new hub flanges. Ideally, just brand new CVs and new hub flanges. Should be ~$1200-1500 in parts. If you're paying for labor, the cost difference is negligible between all new CVs and the half-new plus additional labor to assemble, IMO.

I have some play in my CVs and the "flat-spot" phenomenon isn't even visible. I can only imagine how clunky that felt for you.

I think you made the right call. Most your load surface is gone. I bet you're only a gravel-topped on-ramp or a small slippery obstacle away from totally failure on that. Once those splines let go you're in for an ordeal.

Thanks for following up with pictures. What a great example of detecting a problem before it grenades an entire trip. Cancelling//altering a trip is one thing, being stranded is much worse.

I agree with you. The fact that (s)he already got the flanges pulled indicates a sufficient level of mechanical aptitude to tackle wheel bearings too. I'm just guessing based on the condition of the flanges/splines and the statement about lack of maintenance that there ain't been no one in there for a while. If OP is looking to strike out for AK then that seems like necessary service to perform, and doing it in the driveway will go a long way to expand the knowledge for potential roadside repairs.

Thanks for all the comments, much appreciated, and I am sure they will help others in the future too. I think the problem is I am doubting the vehicle right now - not the breed, just my example of it. I do all my own wrenching; rebuilding engines, the works. And being in Canada I know rust, but every single bolt on the underside of this one breaks off so I am really just worried replacing the CV joints will turn into a nightmare.

You guys are right of course, I need to just replace both the CVs and the hub flanges. I guess I was hoping to do a quick fix and head back out at least somewhere with the time we already booked off. But that would be a mistake. Thanks for the heads up on the load surfaces being gone - and yeah, we had the kids with us and VHF but no satellite gear so I don't regret it.

So what I need to do is commit to this vehicle, which I really want to do. The engine is unreal - gutless and a gas hog but it just never misses a beat. And I still don't understand why the oil looks the same as when I filled it when I change it out.

I looked at the bearings and they actually looked fine, just need to be repacked. I should be able to get hub flanges in in a week or so, and going to start shopping for CV joints. Thank again.

Mike

Btw this is how far we made it, Meziadin Junction. Crown land camping with 3 waterfalls and a glacier in view.

And if anyone is interested, this is how the LX gets run on weekends up here - me getting air time keeping up with a built FJ in the backwoods of Alberta

 

[Zakowsky]

So half a year later and I finally have the new cv joints etc. and the garage space to install them. To recap, I had a clunk coming from the front hubs and the spindles on the side I checked looked bad. So now that I am replacing them, I started on the other (drivers) side, and actually the splines on the cv shaft and the hub flange didn’t look too bad. I was also glad to see the wheel bearing feels solid and smooth.

So I just pulled the cv shaft itself out, and after removing the outboard side of the axle from the wheel spindle I was like, what the? There was a huge amount of what looks like brass or bronze shavings on the inside (body side) of where the cv joint goes into the hub. I searched online and didn’t find anyone with anything that looked like this:

What the heck is going on here? I am having a hard time sorting out if this is a brass washer chewed up, or sleeves or needle bearings - not sure of what is what yet. What do I need to replace, and what causes this to happen? Too much play somewhere? This wheel I have discovered wears the inside of the tire a lot faster than the other 3 - I thought it was just an alignment problem but maybe it is something more? Thanks.

 

[Bomar]

It looks like the slack ate into the metal on the seal

 

[Zakowsky]

Edit : OK thanks - having a hard time finding a good parts picture for this. From looking at the pictures of new seals online (90316-72001) it's suppose to have a rubber part in the centre, right? So isn't the seal the part with the green arrow? I drew a red line where my needle bearings are (under all the shavings). But looking at it again it is the brass disk that is chewed up (blue arrow). What part is that?

Something else must be screwed up to cause this; where can that much slack come from? The c-clip on the hub? Or maybe something is wrong in the diff? Thanks.