Rivian R1S vs LC thoughts? (4 Viewers)

[ElJayBird]

These seem like a much better fit for the soccer mom, ‘get me to the mall’ in my fancy SUV crowd. I never say never but for the moment, I think they’re a long way off from being a viable multi-day backcountry vehicle. I’m sure they’ll get there eventually as long as there’s a market for it. Time will tell

 

[coleAK]

The advancement of EVs is moving exponentially right now and internal combustion is not the future. When I bought my ‘13 LX six years ago just seeing where Tesla was and where they wanted to go I figured that was a good time to buy my last gas car. As for longevity check out the Tesla loop vehicles. They are getting 200-300k miles out of batteries and only one has had any failures in the drivetrain at >500k miles. And those are vehicles that are being driven and charged (super only) way harder than almost anyone will use theirs. After 3 years now of having a Tesla in Alaska with no superchargers and almost no charging infrastructure we have had no issues with charging or range.

I also think Toyota is delaying the 300 because they don’t know what to do. Sort of like when the iPhone came out, Nokia and Blackberry were the top phone makers in the world. Both were resistant to change and both went under, Samsung made the transition to successful smart phone but they were early to embrace the change.

 

[Angelo1]

I agree Cole. The biggest items holding me back from getting another 200 at nearly $90k is the cheap leather, fake wood, old tech and dire need of better seats(more bolstering). As much as i love the LC, it’s living in the past. It’s frustrating only getting 300mi. out of a tank as well. I wish Ford could learn from Toyota on reliability.

 

[tincan45]

The advancement of EVs is moving exponentially right now and internal combustion is not the future. When I bought my ‘13 LX six years ago just seeing where Tesla was and where they wanted to go I figured that was a good time to buy my last gas car. As for longevity check out the Tesla loop vehicles. They are getting 200-300k miles out of batteries and only one has had any failures in the drivetrain at >500k miles. And those are vehicles that are being driven and charged (super only) way harder than almost anyone will use theirs. After 3 years now of having a Tesla in Alaska with no superchargers and almost no charging infrastructure we have had no issues with charging or range.

I also think Toyota is delaying the 300 because they don’t know what to do. Sort of like when the iPhone came out, Nokia and Blackberry were the top phone makers in the world. Both were resistant to change and both went under, Samsung made the transition to successful smart phone but they were early to embrace the change.

If Toyota solid state battery tech works out, this will change our world in a big way. Still a long way off though. I'm perfectly happy driving a thirsty cruiser until that time. New tech won't be this durable for a long time. Not to mention, if EV goes mainstream, oil prices drop to nothing and our cruisers still have a place.

 

[RT Cruiser]

The reason why Toyota will probably discontinue the current Cruiser setup in the US in a few years is because annual sales in the US of about 2,500 isn't as high as what they want. The Cruiser's Lexus twin is hoarding all the sales. Of course around the world the Cruiser will continue to be sold and in different varieties. It's possible the Cruiser will return to the US as a more-aggressive off-road vehicle and with less ridiculous electronic stuff that you do not need off-road, and for less the cost of the current Cruiser.

 

[CruiserFan88]

Wow. Where to begin...I can see all the 60 & 80 guys with their faces in palms shaking their heads. Why get upset guys? I think the majority of us go out and buy a Land Cruiser because we comprehend what a Land Cruiser is and what it is made for. You cant stop the people who buy a 90k LC just to park it next to the Jones' Tesla at the country club and complain about fake wood. Sure the actual enthusiast that actually use the vehicle for its intended purposes, turn wrenches, solve important vehicle issues through research and trial and error would take offense to some of the topics raised here, but why gentleman? I say sell that s***ty fake wood Land Cruiser with haste and got get that Audi or BMW, oh I meant Raptor. An actual enthusiast will be waiting to get some use out of a real over-lander. You know, the one that's used all over the world.

 

[mcgaskins]

Rivian R1T electric pickup traveled 314 miles on a charge, releases video off-roading

Rivian has released new information on its test program for the R1T electric pickup truck and released a video of...

electrek.co

People get too caught up in defined categories of vehicles. "You can't compare a Raptor with a Land Cruiser because one is a pickup and one is an SUV!!". Or you can say both are expensive, non essential, luxury or close to it, supremely capable off road rigs from the factory and appeal to a similar and generally affluent crowd with multiple vehicles in the garage. Same thing with a Jeep Wrangler vs a Tacoma - people absolutely cross shop them even though one is closer to an ATV than a truck. The Rivian target market is perfectly in line with the 200 crowd, so I don't understand the hate here. As a few have pointed out, electric powertrains are the future, and they are awesome. Anyone who doubts the capability of an electric car likely hasn't been hurdled 0-60 in under 3 seconds and been driven to work in heavy stop and go traffic while they relax and let the car do the work. The future is incredibly bright, and Rivian will be a game changer.

 

[CruiserFan88]

I agree with 100% on the above, however, my "hate" or point rather, is that I bought my land cruiser, and Tacoma, and CJ6, because of their heritage and history. I currently still own all three, '08, 01, '74, respectively. I know I, and I will go out on a limb and dare say the majority of the guys on this forum from back in '08, didn't buy a land cruiser to watch nextflix, get hurdled 0-60 in under 3 seconds, fake wood, bitch about gas and $80 dollar trips when you got $200k worth of vehicles in the garage...etc, etc. etc. We bought the LC because its a beast, like many others, however many others aren't an LC. Its not about hate, love, Ford or Toyota. Its about Land Cruiser, period.

 

[Angelo1]

Wow. Where to begin...I can see all the 60 & 80 guys with their faces in palms shaking their heads. Why get upset guys? I think the majority of us go out and buy a Land Cruiser because we comprehend what a Land Cruiser is and what it is made for. You cant stop the people who buy a 90k LC just to park it next to the Jones' Tesla at the country club and complain about fake wood. Sure the actual enthusiast that actually use the vehicle for its intended purposes, turn wrenches, solve important vehicle issues through research and trial and error would take offense to some of the topics raised here, but why gentleman? I say sell that s***ty fake wood Land Cruiser with haste and got get that Audi or BMW, oh I meant Raptor. An actual enthusiast will be waiting to get some use out of a real over-lander. You know, the one that's used all over the world.

Sorry to burst your bubble but I’ve been on this site since 08 and am one of those buyers who have my Cruisers new. So, if Toyota can’t keep up with the times on the LC to better its product for the price I pay, people like you who buy off the second, third, etc used car market, you won’t have any more LC options after 2020. I’m not trying to be rude but your comment was a bit arrogant. Yes, fake wood, low grade leather, old tech in a 90k vehicle is stupid. Why not just use a nice brushed aluminum trim and give the interior an upscale look. No harm in that. I never mentioned anything about the cost of fueling it, it’s the fact I have to do it every 280-300mi. or every 3 days gets old, real quick. I do have a garage of German cars that I cycle through but at least they continue to better their product every other year. 90k for a cruiser and it increases every year with nothing new to show for it is nuts. This why it’s selling so poorly in the US and LX zapping it’s sales. Soon the LX if not better suited will be gone as well and that buyer is mainly females who will get tired of the poor mileage when tooting the kids around. My neighbor turned her LX 570 in for a Q8 because she said it was just to boring.

 

[coleAK]

I agree with 100% on the above, however, my "hate" or point rather, is that I bought my land cruiser, and Tacoma, and CJ6, because of their heritage and history. I currently still own all three, '08, 01, '74, respectively. I know I, and I will go out on a limb and dare say the majority of the guys on this forum from back in '08, didn't buy a land cruiser to watch nextflix, get hurdled 0-60 in under 3 seconds, fake wood, bitch about gas and $80 dollar trips when you got $200k worth of vehicles in the garage...etc, etc. etc. We bought the LC because its a beast, like many others, however many others aren't an LC. Its not about hate, love, Ford or Toyota. Its about Land Cruiser, period.

I agree entirely. Yes the threads about: poor MPG, lack of Apple play, out dated tech, “will 22’s fit”,..., pain me. Yes I love my LX and use it hard, do the majority of the work on it myself (because I want to and enjoy it), but the vast majority of 200 series owners here in the USA (even ones lifted, AT tires, with racks, winch, ...) never take them off road. If I didn’t off road and tow a 7k lb camper I wouldn’t have a 200 series.
Really this discussion is around is the Rivian valid competition for the LC. And I feel even for extreme use yes it is. I wish Toyota would build something similar to the R1S as the 300 series and release it ~2023-2025, Limited production 6 figure showcase off road vehicle of the future.

 

[CruiserFan88]

I agree with you sir, coleAK. Honestly cant wait to see how commercial production will take use of all electric engines/transmissions/transfer-cases and harmoniously pair with real and meaningful off-road capability. It will be quite a remarkable timeline for the Cruiser from its humble beginnings to a full electric off-road super power. I have no objection to a electric vehicles which was indeed the topic at the beginning of the thread.

 

[KLF]

As I told my engineering class this morning, I'm very excited about the electric car market, and I've decided that my next vehicle will be EV. It won't be for awhile, actually I would prefer converting my Miata to EV if I could.

I gave them a challenge project to design a house suitable for the DOE Solar Decathlon contest, to push aside common design paradigms, ignore practical building methods and budget, etc. I used the EV market as an example: look what Mr Musk and others have accomplished in just a few short years. They've solved a lot of the engineering problems, now they are working on the social barriers with things like turning the tide on charging stations, making people comfortable with EVs, and so on. Ten years ago we wouldn't even give this concept a chance. They will get to witness the death of the wasteful internal combustion engine.

Now that range and power have been pretty much solved (and will only get better), eventually they will look at what the market wants. A capable off-road expo vehicle isn't far off, let's hope Toyota steps up.

 

[TeCKis300]

We pretty much already know what will motivate the next Cruiser. V6 turbo. An EV Cruiser may have to wait for the next generation. If previous generations are anything to go by, that'll be at least 10 years after. Unless EVs take off so dramatically. Yet IMO, an EV driveline does not really fit the Cruiser mission and intent yet. Perhaps only to some of the more recreational and enthusiast crowds. But not the hardcore utility, overlanding, and adventure users. That part is less dependent on the vehicle rather than the supporting infrastructure.

Rivian, they have everything to prove. Vaporware and pretty pictures at the moment (which they are marketing very well!). With no established reputation, capability, value, etc. I'll say it now, it won't measure up to the storied Cruiser for the use cases the Cruiser was really built for. It'll be another cool enthusiast car, with some really cool superlatives. Being the new kid on the block will have some significant deficiencies. Being all new, Ford will very likely be better than Rivian for reliability. And I won't touch a Ford.

If there's an EV to watch out for, it'll be the upcoming Tesla cyber truck. They are establishing a real reputation for delivering the future in a practical and game changing manner. This has played out in every vehicle category they've chosen to contest.

 

[slipkid13]

"The advancement of EVs is moving exponentially right now and internal combustion is not the future. "

That sounds like a press release from the EV industry.

Refinement maybe be moving "exponentially" but charging times and range are pretty much the same they were 4 years ago. We are not going to see 400 miles in real world range any time soon. Plus, you can't slap on some 5 gallon jerry Cans of electricity to extend your range.

OK, batteries can last say 200K. What happens then? How are you going to dispose/recycle that? People got their panties in a bunch over plastic straws, what happens with car batteries? If we have this big switch everyone predicts what are we going to do with hundreds of millions of batteries?

Gas is cheap and plentiful. (despite 50 years of "peak oil" nonsense) IC is not going anywhere.

Plus, where is all this electricity going to come from? Coal and oil, so you are just moving the carbon from tailpipe to the generation plant. Plus, for the last 20 years all we have heard about regarding the "Grid" is how terrible it is. How is it going to support the tens of millions of cars everyone predicts will be jumping on for juice? "Shovel Ready" projects? We saw how that worked out last time.

Electric vehicles are the Apple of the car world, luxury products for people with disposable income.

 

[TeCKis300]

"The advancement of EVs is moving exponentially right now and internal combustion is not the future. "

That sounds like a press release from the EV industry.

Refinement maybe be moving "exponentially" but charging times and range are pretty much the same they were 4 years ago. We are not going to see 400 miles in real world range any time soon. Plus, you can't slap on some 5 gallon jerry Cans of electricity to extend your range.

OK, batteries can last say 200K. What happens then? How are you going to dispose/recycle that? People got their panties in a bunch over plastic straws, what happens with car batteries? If we have this big switch everyone predicts what are we going to do with hundreds of millions of batteries?

Gas is cheap and plentiful. (despite 50 years of "peak oil" nonsense) IC is not going anywhere.

Plus, where is all this electricity going to come from? Coal and oil, so you are just moving the carbon from tailpipe to the generation plant. Plus, for the last 20 years all we have heard about regarding the "Grid" is how terrible it is. How is it going to support the tens of millions of cars everyone predicts will be jumping on for juice? "Shovel Ready" projects? We saw how that worked out last time.

Electric vehicles are the Apple of the car world, luxury products for people with disposable income.

I get what you're trying to say. At the same time, you couldn't be more wrong. Change is here. Until you own one, it's hard to comprehend. For everyone that has owned one, there is no going back to a primitive ICE.

373 miles range is here today in the Model S. 400 is just around the corner. Agreed with it it's still not suited to extended adventure travel.

Battery recycling is happening but there's more opportunity and maturity to be had. Let's not pretend burning dinosaurs has zero impacts either.

Gas is no longer cheap. Not even close when one considers EV "fueling" is less than 25% the cost. That's just the start, with further savings opportunities depending on other things like solar. Then one looks at the lifetime fueling, maintenance, other costs. It's not even close because a 40k EV is already proving to cost less than a 25k camry to operate in lifecycle costs. Peak oil is past.

I can own luxury products (like the 200-series). For a real world efficient and cheap to operate vehicle - EVs have arrived.

 

[RT Cruiser]

There’s both love and angst towards the Rivian and both sides are correct. I for one look to the day when the LC is electric, there can finally be a true 4x4 drive with each wheel having its own torque output, and the big engine bay will be filled with food coolers and lawn chairs.

However, there are serious engineering problems to solve with electric vehicles:
* Takes too long to charge.
* Charging stations are not accessible like gas stations - especially if you want to drive across the US.
* Adding weight and towing reduces driving range.
* The weather can negatively impact the battery output. Watch this video:


I’m not a naysayer for electric. I’m patient to wait for the engineering issues, high depreciation, low resale value, and long-term reliability to be worked out.

 

[RT Cruiser]

.

 

[coleAK]

There’s both love and angst towards the Rivian and both sides are correct. I for one look to the day when the LC is electric, there can finally be a true 4x4 drive with each wheel having its own torque output, and the big engine bay will be filled with food coolers and lawn chairs.

However, there are serious engineering problems to solve with electric vehicles:
* Takes too long to charge.
* Charging stations are not accessible like gas stations - especially if you want to drive across the US.
* Adding weight and towing reduces driving range.
* The weather can negatively impact the battery output. Watch this video:


I’m not a naysayer for electric. I’m patient to wait for the engineering issues, high depreciation, low resale value, and long-term reliability to be worked out.

Really? Too cheep to buy 240v charging? It’s $500. Yes $500 for the Tesla 250v charge connector. And I installed mine myself. I’m in Alaska and on our 4th winter with a Tesla. 3 with the S and 2nd with the 3. No problems with freezing as long as you pre heat, but same things goes for remote starting a gas car. Yes you don’t get heat from the engine so must use electricity to heat. On short trips around town the heat uses noticeable battery and I charge ~30% to 80% 2-3 times a week where in the summer I charge 1-2 times a week. On longer trips even below 0F the heat and winter roads account to a ~20-25% range loss. And yes I get rated range or better all summer (~4 months in Alaska)
Only slight issue I have is with the 3 (S was RWD) is it’s AWD is rear bias. I’m sure they did this for sporty feel but on extremely slick surfaces the rear kicks out for a split second then the front corrects. It always corrects but what you get is a slight wobble feel. I’m sure it could be corrected with software updates over the air. And yes the Tesla’s regularly get updated over the air, I’ve recieved >10% HP increase since i got the car. And there was also an update for the S to show individual tire pressures.

 

[KLF]

Yes you don’t get heat from the engine so must use electricity to heat.

Was hoping you'd weigh in.

Question on the heat in the winter: is it basic resistive heat? Or is it some sort of reverse of the AC, like a heat pump?

 

[coleAK]

Was hoping you'd weigh in.

Question on the heat in the winter: is it basic resistive heat? Or is it some sort of reverse of the AC, like a heat pump?

Resistive heat, and the almost instant heat is nice here in AK. There is much discussion on the Tesla forums around heat pumps. But basically my 0.02 is heat pumps only work in places where you really don’t need heat much in the first place . So in those places the resistive heat isn’t needed much and the pump would be useless other places. The AC draws almost nothing from the battery, the consensus is ~10% max on full blast in hot climates.
My standing joke is: ifheat uses too much battery there is always plan B.

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