Replaced Starter Contacts. Still Intermittant Starting!!! Sleuth needed. (1 Viewer)

[zcruiser]

If the solenoid is firing, you may have bad contacts but I would not rule out a bad starter cable or bad ground at the starter. If the starter cable is carrying the voltage but not the amps, your starter will still not turn even with good contacts.

 

[landtank]

I'd start at the cable contact at the solenoid from the battery and don't forget the one from the solenoid to the motor on the side of the starter. That one doesn't usually get touched during service.

 

[roncruiser]

If the solenoid is firing, you may have bad contacts but I would not rule out a bad starter cable or bad ground at the starter. If the starter cable is carrying the voltage but not the amps, your starter will still not turn even with good contacts.

I'm going back in this morning. I've already replaced the starter contacts and plunger. That was a couple weeks ago.

I'm going to double check the starter cable and all other contacts. In the end the starter will be replaced with the spare I have. I'll let you all how things progress.

In the meantime, keep the ideas coming. I'll be checking back occasionally.

Thanks!

 

[roncruiser]

I'd start at the cable contact at the solenoid from the battery...

Do you mean the main starter cable, or the black cable and its connector?

...and don't forget the one from the solenoid to the motor on the side of the starter. That one doesn't usually get touched during service.

What exactly do you mean by the solenoid to motor? I thought, there was only two connections at the starter. The main starter cable from the battery and the black cable.

Anyhow, I'll check, clean recrimp and tighten all cable connections as well.

 

[MARLIN375]

While you are cleaning and recrimping everything, run a 10ga wire from your negative bat post to a bolt on your starter, (a mounting bolt will work) read post 18, it still sounds like a bad ground to me. Put new lock washers on the nuts/mounting bolts holding your starter on, give the nuts (not the bolts) a half turn after everything is tight to get the washers to cut into your bellhousing, your starter needs a better ground than any other component on your vehicle. Except maybe your winch......but you won't be using it until you get out the driveway

 

[landtank]

RonCruiser, there are two connections to remove the starter.

A single small black wire that plugs into the solenoid, which is the trigger for the solenoid.

And a second larger wire which gets lugged onto the starter that comes from the battery, This second line carries the high 12v to the solenoid.

Now there is another high amp line on the starter itself. It is lugged on it in the same way as the wire from the battery is but it now carries the high amp 12v from the other side of the solenoid to the starter motor. It's a short wire coming out of the motor itself.

You want to make sure both high amp connections are clean and tight.

 

[roncruiser]

Update:

Went in yesterday. Again.

Before I pulled the starter. I went and cleaned (again) all the usual suspect contacts with medium/fine emery paper. At the battery I pulled off the starter lug and lightly sanded off enough on both sides of the contact surface to get a nice clean surface. I also did the fusible link contact surfaces at the battery and at the nuts. This was all nitpicking, but I felt compelled to do it.

I then pulled the starter again. I opened up the starter to check the contacts. One of them was not flat. I could tell because the wear on that contact from the plunger was on one corner. Whereas the other contact had wear across the whole contact patch. I reseated the unflush contact and closed it up. Before reintalling the starter I cleaned and lightly sanded down each contact mating surface and tightened down everything properly. I made sure that the black wire was not loose when connected. I even tried to push the tab in the connector down to make sure it made solid contact when connected. I finally doubled checked everything and reintalled the starter.

The truck started right up, but that's nothing new. It started right up the last time too. I drove around all day after the maintenance and so far so good. So far so good this morning too! No "no starts"!

It may have been that unflush contact. I'll update again at the end of the day before passing judgement.

 

[roncruiser]

Update: Not quite the next day, but information nonetheless.

So far everything is good. There has not been one "no start" since the last post.

 

[Beowulf]

It may have been that unflush contact.

The FSM is very specific about how to ensure those contacts are positioned properly. I am certain that was your problem and that you are good to go another 60k miles now that the contacts were properly installed.

Congrats!

-B-

 

[maverick_sr71]

I had the exact same problem when turning the key and nothing...then waiting and turning the key and it would start or holding the key on and eventually it would start.

I replaced the starter with a new one and nothing was different.

My auto electrician tracked it down to worn contacts in the ignition. I replaced the ignition switch and all was back to normal.

This was when the 80 had the 3FE not the V8.

This is a common fault in the Toyota and instead of replacing the ignition switch simply put a driving light relay in the start solinoid line. This way the ignition switch only has to pull the driving light relay closed, it then puts full battery power onto the starter motor solinoid.

Pete. R.

 

[roncruiser]

This is a common fault in the Toyota and instead of replacing the ignition switch simply put a driving light relay in the start solinoid line. This way the ignition switch only has to pull the driving light relay closed, it then puts full battery power onto the starter motor solinoid.

Pete. R.

Pete, please elaborate. This sounds like an interesting thing to explore and possibly implement.

 

[zcruiser]

This is a common fault in the Toyota and instead of replacing the ignition switch simply put a driving light relay in the start solinoid line. This way the ignition switch only has to pull the driving light relay closed, it then puts full battery power onto the starter motor solinoid.

Pete. R.

Not sure I follow this... The ignition key makes a low-current contact that is connected to the starter solenoid via a relatively small wire (18 AWG?). This signal is what causes the plunger (solenoid) to move into the high-current contacts which carry the battery current directly to the starter motor. The solenoid (plunger) itself does not carry battery current, it is the head of the plunger which makes the connection between the two contacts. The arcing that occurs each time this happens is what pits the starter contacts as well as the head of the plunger.

The head of the plunger is actually insulated from the plunger shaft itself:

An "enhancement" I have seen is to remove the starter control lead from the key assembly and install a starter button on the dash. Just turn the key to 'ON', hit the momentary pushbutton on the dash and viola! A Ferrari!

 

[roncruiser]

The FSM is very specific about how to ensure those contacts are positioned properly. I am certain that was your problem and that you are good to go another 60k miles now that the contacts were properly installed.

Congrats!

-B-

Beowulf, thanks.

I'll post as soon as a non-start happens.... hopefully it won't.

 

[maverick_sr71]

If you look at the wiring diagram for the start system you'll see that all the power to pull in the start solinoid goes through the contacts in the ignition switch. These contacts become burnt and pitted over time and create a high resistance, thus the voltage being provided to the start relay is reduced and intermitantly the start solinoid will get power, but not enough to pull the soliniod in.

To over come this problem, and after replacing the starter motor solinoid contacts, I put a spot light relay in the system. Essentially what this does is removes the heavy load of the starter motor solinoid off the ignition switch. I've not measured it but it's probably 8-10 amps instantanious to close the starter motor soliniod.

So what happens now is I turn the ignition key to start the truck and that energises the spot light relay, about 1 amp instantanious, which then closes and puts full battery power to the start solinoid of the starter motor.

Hope that helps a little. If you need a diagram I'll draw one up for you.

 

[maverick_sr71]

Not sure I follow this... The ignition key makes a low-current contact that is connected to the starter solenoid via a relatively small wire (18 AWG?). This signal is what causes the plunger (solenoid) to move into the high-current contacts which carry the battery current directly to the starter motor. The solenoid (plunger) itself does not carry battery current, it is the head of the plunger which makes the connection between the two contacts. The arcing that occurs each time this happens is what pits the starter contacts as well as the head of the plunger.



The head of the plunger is actually insulated from the plunger shaft itself:


An "enhancement" I have seen is to remove the starter control lead from the key assembly and install a starter button on the dash. Just turn the key to 'ON', hit the momentary pushbutton on the dash and viola! A Ferrari!

Correct, only the current required to pull the starter contacts closed and throw out the engaging gear is something like 8-10 amps instantanous. The spot light relay removes this heavy load from the ignition switch and puts it onto the spot light relay and heavier wiring. Just about every auto elec in Oz knows this trick to fix the intermitant starting problems of any Toyota as they all have the same issue. You only do this mod if you've already replaced the start motor solinoid contacts and the intermittant problem is still there.

Installing the "start button" is essentially doing the same thing as installing the spot light relay, you're in effect removing the need for the burnt and pitted contacts of the ignition switch to handle the instantanious power requirements of the starter motor solinoid. Depending on the quality of the "start button" and what power it's contacts are rated at it to will have the same issues in 10+ yrs time.

 

[bhaines]

That solanoid trick is what the RACV guy told me when i first had the problem, then the auto elec said the same thing. They told me it happens all the time, so I am just confirming what you said.

 

[roncruiser]

Well, guys, yesterday the dreaded intermittant start hit me a few times...AGAIN!
Apparently, resetting the contacts flush was not the main problem. The main problem is still haunting me. The intermittant start hit me 4 times yesterday on 4 separate occasions. Eventually, the vehicle starts but its really a bummer now.

 

[roncruiser]

Hope that helps a little. If you need a diagram I'll draw one up for you.

I suppose I still need a sleuth.

maverick_sr71, having that wiring diagram would be nice to have. Can you post it up? I'm not sure if its going to help me out but you never know.

I'm going in to replace the solenoid some time soon. Unfortunately, I cannot do it today.

If that does not work it out. I'll have to put in that "spot light relay" soon after.
If that "fixes" the intermittant start problem, I'll replace the ignition switch. I'm not sure how much the cost of the ignition switch is, but the relay sounds like the inexpensive solution.

If anyone has other ideas about my start woes please chime in.

 

[roncruiser]

Isn't there a switch in the shift stick area that prevents the vehicle from starting in drive?

 

[landtank]

do you here a click when the no start happens?