Remove a harmonic balancer - How?

[cps432]

NOS may not be available, maybe @MSP1989 would have one available
if not good used is the other option, posting a wanted thread here:

Classifieds - Engine/Transmission/Transfer Case

Motors, Automatic Transmissions, 5-speeds, Valve Covers, Starters, Alternators, etc

forum.ih8mud.com

I was about to ask you if you have one laying around. I would be willing to take a trip to Helena if you did. I’m down in Bozeman these days.

 

[3_puppies]

almost certain I have 1 removed currently, I have 1 more still in the block also.

 

[OSS]

Ok perhaps I don’t know what I’m talking about but here it goes…

The end of the crankshaft (affectionately called “the nose”) is tapered; tapered with a notch cut in it to hold the locking key.

The harmonic balancer hole (affectionately called “the hole”) is a matched taper that fits perfectly on the nose.

For argument’s sake, if the harmonic balancer was mounted on to the nose of the crankshaft and torqued to spec without using the lock key, the balancer/pulley would still be extremely tight on the crankshaft nose. It wouldn’t wobble at all - would be solid as a rock. What would happen of course is that it would spin on the crank because there wouldn’t be anything locking it in place.

Theoretically speaking, I’m not so sure that its all that important to have a perfectly fitted key fit super snug in the slot on the nose.
The only function the key (and slot) carry out is preventing rotation. They aren’t contributing to harmonic balancer snuggness.

The way I’m seeing it (Caution: leave the room now if you’re squeamish) is if the balancer hole fits tight on the nose, the key only needs to be in there to prevent spinning. It doesn’t need to be a perfect fit. If the key prevents spinning — that’s all that’s required.

 

[cps432]

Ok perhaps I don’t know what I’m talking about but here it goes…

The end of the crankshaft (affectionately called “the nose”) is tapered; tapered with a notch cut in it to hold the locking key.

The harmonic balancer hole (affectionately called “the hole”) is a matched taper that fits perfectly on the nose.

For argument’s sake, if the harmonic balancer was mounted on to the nose of the crankshaft and torqued to spec without using the lock key, the balancer/pulley would still be extremely tight on the crankshaft nose. It wouldn’t wobble at all - would be solid as a rock. What would happen of course is that it would spin on the crank because there wouldn’t be anything locking it in place.

Theoretically speaking, I’m not so sure that its all that important to have a perfectly fitted key fit super snug in the slot on the nose.
The only function the key (and slot) carry out is preventing rotation. They aren’t contributing to harmonic balancer snuggness.

The way I’m seeing it (Caution: leave the room now if you’re squeamish) is if the balancer hole fits tight on the nose, the key only needs to be in there to prevent spinning. It doesn’t need to be a perfect fit. If the key prevents spinning — that’s all that’s required.

I agree almost 100%. However, if the key is sloppy enough to turn past 90 degrees there will be a wobble that will develop. If the key is 89* it would allow the pulley to move… whatever that math formula says…. And that would allow for a hammering effect on the crank snout. After X amount of time that 89* will turn into 80* or worse allowing more and more wobble which will eventually lead to my current situation. I suggest a tight fitting keyway and key and a PROPERLY torqued nut. I think the majority of these failures are caused by incorrectly torqued crank nuts or failed rubber in the HB.

 

[mrboatman]

Here is a new 2F Crankshaft

 

[rstoddard]

For an ‘83-‘84

 

[rstoddard]

Ok perhaps I don’t know what I’m talking about but here it goes…

The end of the crankshaft (affectionately called “the nose”) is tapered; tapered with a notch cut in it to hold the locking key.

The harmonic balancer hole (affectionately called “the hole”) is a matched taper that fits perfectly on the nose.

For argument’s sake, if the harmonic balancer was mounted on to the nose of the crankshaft and torqued to spec without using the lock key, the balancer/pulley would still be extremely tight on the crankshaft nose. It wouldn’t wobble at all - would be solid as a rock. What would happen of course is that it would spin on the crank because there wouldn’t be anything locking it in place.

Theoretically speaking, I’m not so sure that its all that important to have a perfectly fitted key fit super snug in the slot on the nose.
The only function the key (and slot) carry out is preventing rotation. They aren’t contributing to harmonic balancer snuggness.

The way I’m seeing it (Caution: leave the room now if you’re squeamish) is if the balancer hole fits tight on the nose, the key only needs to be in there to prevent spinning. It doesn’t need to be a perfect fit. If the key prevents spinning — that’s all that’s required.

How much tapering is there on the snout? ( The very end of the snout seems to have a taper…. Is that what you are referring to? ) The HB Hub would have to have a precise counter tapering to match the snout. Are you saying both the snout and hub are tapered to mate together?

I’m just asking because I’ve read where people suggested milling the hub and adding a sleeve to make up for any wear on the shaft. That doesn’t seem possible if it is tapered.

 

[3_puppies]

For an ‘83-‘84

IIRCC all the 2F's used the same crank, only differance was the thrust washers. if not all the 2F's, any 2F after 1981 is going to be the same.

 

[3_puppies]

Ok perhaps I don’t know what I’m talking about but here it goes…

The end of the crankshaft (affectionately called “the nose”) is tapered; tapered with a notch cut in it to hold the locking key.

The harmonic balancer hole (affectionately called “the hole”) is a matched taper that fits perfectly on the nose.

For argument’s sake, if the harmonic balancer was mounted on to the nose of the crankshaft and torqued to spec without using the lock key, the balancer/pulley would still be extremely tight on the crankshaft nose. It wouldn’t wobble at all - would be solid as a rock. What would happen of course is that it would spin on the crank because there wouldn’t be anything locking it in place.

Theoretically speaking, I’m not so sure that its all that important to have a perfectly fitted key fit super snug in the slot on the nose.
The only function the key (and slot) carry out is preventing rotation. They aren’t contributing to harmonic balancer snuggness.

The way I’m seeing it (Caution: leave the room now if you’re squeamish) is if the balancer hole fits tight on the nose, the key only needs to be in there to prevent spinning. It doesn’t need to be a perfect fit. If the key prevents spinning — that’s all that’s required.

if you look at the pics in post #57 you can see the wear on the crank, and with @rstoddard saying he was able to pull the HB off without a puller, his crank snout needs repair.

as my local machinist has told me, I can give you clearance to the .0001", there is a reason for tight fits.
.01" may not seem like alot but it is "looser" than .0001"

proper install is the way to go.

 

[rstoddard]

There are two core pieces that are riveted together. Then they fill the back of the pulley with rubber to act as a dampener to absorb stray vibrations in the crank shaft. If the rubber wears out the pulley can get off balance and fails to absorb vibrations. It seems that the crank snouts failure was very common on these 2F engines. I’ve seen pictures of HB failure where the rubber rots and the rivets begin to wallow out the steel in the HB.

@3_puppies @mrboatman

How do I get the seal out of the Timing Gear Cover? I can’t figure it out. Is there a bronze bushing on the backside that needs to be removed?

 

[rstoddard]

@3_puppies @mrboatman

How do I get the seal out of the Timing Gear Cover? I can’t figure it out. Is there a bronze bushing on the backside that needs to be removed?View attachment 3194361View attachment 3194362

Sorry ….. I figured it out. Pulled it from the front. I started trying to mess with it from the back. Fortunately I didn’t do any damage to the part on the backside.

 

[3_puppies]

Sorry ….. I figured it out. Pulled it from the front. I started trying to mess with it from the back. Fortunately I didn’t do any damage to the part on the backside.

be extra cautious about installing a new seal, very easy to damage the timing cover
did you mark which bolts went where when removing the cover? they need to go back in there respective place, there are different length bolts and can cause leaks if put in the wrong place.
leave cover loose until the HB is installed so the timing cover will self center on the HB the tighten/torque the timing cover

 

[rstoddard]

be extra cautious about installing a new seal, very easy to damage the timing cover
did you mark which bolts went where when removing the cover? they need to go back in there respective place, there are different length bolts and can cause leaks if put in the wrong place.
leave cover loose until the HB is installed so the timing cover will self center on the HB the tighten/torque the timing cover

Yes, I saw where the bolt sizes are different, plus I have the Microfiche that shows what bolts go where. I didn't mark each exact bolt for each hole though.
How do you get the new seal in? I'm worried about damaging the seal too. it like you have to press it in from the rubber seal side

 

[cps432]

Your 46mm socket is the prefect driver. Put a light coat of oil on the seal for lubrication and gently tap it into place. Don’t let it get crooked. Make sure the cover is on a solid flat surface so you don’t bend it. Also, check that the gasket surface of the cover is flat before you install it. It’s easy to bend them and cause a leak.

 

[rstoddard]

How do you get the HB on (making sure it’s perfectly aligned with the Key)? Is there a tool for putting it on?

 

[OSS]

How do you get the HB on (making sure it’s perfectly aligned with the Key)? Is there a tool for putting it on?

It can only fit one way. If it’s aligned with the key and slides on. - then the nut tightened, its on perfectly.

 

[rstoddard]

Did you paint the cover? Do you know if it need hi-temp paint?

 

[bcolvin]

Those timing covers can be a pita. Lots of small tricks. Make sure the edges sit flat. I took a small hammer and wood block and totally flattened it. Definitely scrape off all gasket. Also when installing do all the bolts torque slightly to allow the cover to completely align. Then make sure to know what the torque specs are for the bolts.

I had to redo this three times to get it right. Such is the learning process. Good luck

 

[rstoddard]

Question is: To use sealant on the cork gasket or not. Seems like there are two schools of thought on that subject. Some say to put it on dry. Others say a light, thin coat on both sides. I still haven’t decided.

I think I saw and have the torque specs bookmarked. I have the FSM and they should be listed.

 

[bcolvin]

I used sealant but my last time I used the permatex aviation form a gasket. By the third time doing this I was ready to try anything. Im not sure if that made the difference or not but it seemed to work. The times before used fipg.