Remove a harmonic balancer - How?

[rstoddard]

the HB should not move at all on the crank shaft. if it does, there is an issue that needs to be fixed,
worn key
worn key way in crank
worn key/ID of HB
wear on the crankshaft snout
combo of all 4 above

if there is in and out movement, is the HB moving or the entire crankshaft?

I’m not familiar with what the key is. I haven’t seen any detail of that. Is that a small key that inserts into the Timing Gear and protrudes out and inserts into the HB to keep them aligned (from what I’m seeing in the Engine FSM)? If that is the key, what holds it in place (will pulling the HB) affect the Key)?

I don’t believe the Crankshaft is moving in/out; I think there is just a very slight amount of play in/out with the HB on the shaft. There must be some wear somewhere since there is a slight gap between the locking plate/tabs and the Nut. Maybe it just loosened over time to allow the gap, but the Nut isn’t loose.

 

[rstoddard]

the HB should not move at all on the crank shaft. if it does, there is an issue that needs to be fixed,
worn key
worn key way in crank
worn key/ID of HB
wear on the crankshaft snout
combo of all 4 above

if there is in and out movement, is the HB moving or the entire crankshaft?

It seems like if I bent back the locking tabs, I could spin the HB without any problem. The tabs seem to be the only think preventing it from turning 360 degrees.

 

[3_puppies]

I’m not familiar with what the key is. I haven’t seen any detail of that. Is that a small key that inserts into the Timing Gear and protrudes out and inserts into the HB to keep them aligned (from what I’m seeing in the Engine FSM)? If that is the key, what holds it in place (will pulling the HB) affect the Key)?

I don’t believe the Crankshaft is moving in/out; I think there is just a very slight amount of play in/out with the HB on the shaft. There must be some wear somewhere since there is a slight gap between the locking plate/tabs and the Nut. Maybe it just loosened over time to allow the gap, but the Nut isn’t loose.

there is a female slot in the crank shaft and a female slot in the HB. there is a piece of key stock that goes into the crank and the HB. the HB should not rotate on the crankshaft, as it should be "locked" together as 1 unit via the key stock.

it is not directly connected to the timing gear.

the nut should not have loosened, if installed correctly.

It seems like if I bent back the locking tabs, I could spin the HB without any problem. The tabs seem to be the only think preventing it from turning 360 degrees.

that should not be the case, as the lock tab has no way to hold the HB from spinning with all the torque of the engine.

 

[rstoddard]

I bent the tabs back. The movement is still limited. I have a photo of the key. I don’t understand how you can get this kind of movement with that key. I hope the issue is in the HB (and can be repaired) and not with the Crankshaft Key. I have a video but I can’t seem to insert it.

 

[rstoddard]

Does anyone have a photo of the HB Center where the Crankshaft snout runs through? What does that look like? What is it made of? Is that a Rubber center? Is that what is deteriorating and allowing the movement?

 

[cps432]

Does anyone have a photo of the HB Center where the Crankshaft snout runs through? What does that look like? What is it made of? Is that a Rubber center? Is that what is deteriorating and allowing the movement?

The key on my crank snout was repaired long ago with jb weld by the PO. It failed a few weeks ago when it got really cold up here. I have pictures of the inside of the HB and some extra showing the carnage. Looks like the key turned about 45 degrees off axis and wallowed itself around a hood bit. HB didn’t spin but was defiantly wobbling and working the nut off.

 

[cps432]

There are two core pieces that are riveted together. Then they fill the back of the pulley with rubber to act as a dampener to absorb stray vibrations in the crank shaft. If the rubber wears out the pulley can get off balance and fails to absorb vibrations. It seems that the crank snouts failure was very common on these 2F engines. I’ve seen pictures of HB failure where the rubber rots and the rivets begin to wallow out the steel in the HB.

 

[cps432]

I bent the tabs back. The movement is still limited. I have a photo of the key. I don’t understand how you can get this kind of movement with that key. I hope the issue is in the HB (and can be repaired) and not with the Crankshaft Key. I have a video but I can’t seem to insert it.



View attachment 3188481

The brass bit circled in red is an oiler for the timing gears and isn’t associated with the HB.

 

[micruz60]

If you need a repair. . .

: www.damperdoctor.com

*no affiliation*

 

[rstoddard]

There are two core pieces that are riveted together. Then they fill the back of the pulley with rubber to act as a dampener to absorb stray vibrations in the crank shaft. If the rubber wears out the pulley can get off balance and fails to absorb vibrations. It seems that the crank snouts failure was very common on these 2F engines. I’ve seen pictures of HB failure where the rubber rots and the rivets begin to wallow out the steel in the HB.

What constitutes “Crank Snouts Failure”? Does that imply the Key dislodged and allows the HB to rotate? Is the steel center of the HB surrounded by Rubber? Does that disintegrate and allow the HB to rotate (is that “snout failure”)?

I guess I’ll understand better when I get it off, but I won’t get the Socket for another week-10 days.

Ron

 

[cps432]

What constitutes “Crank Snouts Failure”? Does that imply the Key dislodged and allows the HB to rotate? Is the steel center of the HB surrounded by Rubber? Does that disintegrate and allow the HB to rotate (is that “snout failure”)?

I guess I’ll understand better when I get it off, but I won’t get the Socket for another week-10 days.

Ron

The keyway that’s ground into the snout breaks and the key itself rocks back and forth allowing the pulley to wobble.

The other failure is in the HB rubber where it disintegrates and the pulley will wobble which could lead to and be the cause of many crank shaft snout failures.

 

[3_puppies]

The keyway that’s ground into the snout breaks and the key itself rocks back and forth allowing the pulley to wobble.

The other failure is in the HB rubber where it disintegrates and the pulley will wobble which could lead to and be the cause of many crank shaft snout failures.

I've also seen the the HB rivets get "loose" and the HB seperates there.

 

[rstoddard]

The key on my crank snout was repaired long ago with jb weld by the PO. It failed a few weeks ago when it got really cold up here. I have pictures of the inside of the HB and some extra showing the carnage. Looks like the key turned about 45 degrees off axis and wallowed itself around a hood bit. HB didn’t spin but was defiantly wobbling and working the nut off.View attachment 3188521View attachment 3188522View attachment 3188523View attachment 3188524

Did you have to completely replace the HB or was it repairable?

 

[rstoddard]

The key on my crank snout was repaired long ago with jb weld by the PO. It failed a few weeks ago when it got really cold up here. I have pictures of the inside of the HB and some extra showing the carnage. Looks like the key turned about 45 degrees off axis and wallowed itself around a hood bit. HB didn’t spin but was defiantly wobbling and working the nut off.View attachment 3188521View attachment 3188522View attachment 3188523View attachment 3188524

How is the Key held in place? Was the original Key broken and the PO just JB welded it back in? How do you go about properly replacing the Key?

 

[rstoddard]

I've also seen the the HB rivets get "loose" and the HB seperates there.

I’ve been inspecting the HB best I can (since I can’t get it off yet). I’ve been looking for the rubber, which I can only figure must be the ring layer on the backside at the very top of the HB. I don’t see any cracks or issues at all and no problems with the rivets, so I think the issue has to be the Key, just as you predicted. That’s why I’m interested in how to fix that Key.

 

[cps432]

Did you have to completely replace the HB or was it repairable?

I replaced the whole pulley when I realized my original one was in bad shape. There is a company (I think in Arizona) that rebuilds HB for high performance race engines and they have done a few 2F pulleys for people on the forum over the years. I don’t know their company name though. I think it was $300 for a rebuild or $500 for a new one. I just went with a new one.

How is the Key held in place? Was the original Key broken and the PO just JB welded it back in? How do you go about properly replacing the Key?

The key is basically press fit. It has very tight tolerances and is simply an indexing pin to keep the pulley from spinning on the shaft. It is designed to come out freely when everything is disassembled.

What happened on my truck and most others is that the key way on the snout chipped out. That caused those tight tolerances to go right out the window which is why things start trying to spin. The key will jam itself in there and most likely prevent it from coming completely apart immediately, but it will wobble and cause even more damage if you don’t fix it.

Jb weld is not advisable. It’s a fix for the trails if you’re really screwed. The correct way to do it is to pull the crankshaft out and have a machine shop heat the snout and weld it so that it forms a solid layer. Then they’ll heat treat it to harden it. Then they will turn it on the lathe to bring the snout back into the correct diameter. Then they cut a new key way on the milling machine. If they don’t do the heat treating steps it will fail again.

 

[3_puppies]

almost all of the keys I've removed. I needed to use a small sharp chisel and a hammer to remove.
If in goof shape it is a snug fit.

there is also an Australian company that sells an aftermarket HB, that others have used with success.
it was posted about in a thread recently.
I think @Spike Strip posted it

problem is that once there is movement where there shouldn't, you will wear the key way on both the crank shaft and the HB along with possibly the OD of the crank shaft itself, as it is tapered.

there are work arounds and fixes, but until you know what you are working with, we are all just guessing.

 

[cps432]

almost all of the keys I've removed. I needed to use a small sharp chisel and a hammer to remove.
If in goof shape it is a snug fit.

there is also an Australian company that sells an aftermarket HB, that others have used with success.
it was posted about in a thread recently.
I think @Spike Strip posted it

problem is that once there is movement where there shouldn't, you will wear the key way on both the crank shaft and the HB along with possibly the OD of the crank shaft itself, as it is tapered.

there are work arounds and fixes, but until you know what you are working with, we are all just guessing.

I am running one of those HB currently. It’s no longer manufactured in Australia though. They moved production to China because they couldn’t keep up with the ever increasing demand for new HB for these popular 2F engines. The paint is more like graphite powder and will rust immediately unless you strip it and paint it with quality stuff.

Pretty sure Old Man Emu is made in China now too.

 

[rstoddard]

I replaced the whole pulley when I realized my original one was in bad shape. There is a company (I think in Arizona) that rebuilds HB for high performance race engines and they have done a few 2F pulleys for people on the forum over the years. I don’t know their company name though. I think it was $300 for a rebuild or $500 for a new one. I just went with a new one.

The key is basically press fit. It has very tight tolerances and is simply an indexing pin to keep the pulley from spinning on the shaft. It is designed to come out freely when everything is disassembled.

What happened on my truck and most others is that the key way on the snout chipped out. That caused those tight tolerances to go right out the window which is why things start trying to spin. The key will jam itself in there and most likely prevent it from coming completely apart immediately, but it will wobble and cause even more damage if you don’t fix it.

Jb weld is not advisable. It’s a fix for the trails if you’re really screwed. The correct way to do it is to pull the crankshaft out and have a machine shop heat the snout and weld it so that it forms a solid layer. Then they’ll heat treat it to harden it. Then they will turn it on the lathe to bring the snout back into the correct diameter. Then they cut a new key way on the milling machine. If they don’t do the heat treating steps it will fail again.

Can the Crankshaft be pulled without pulling the Engine (just by removing the Pan)? Does that involve removing the Flywheel too?

 

[3_puppies]

you'd need to remove the trans to remove the flywheel, to remove the crank