**Re-opened** 1FZ-FE poor cold starts and wont idle

[petegangies]

I'm pretty certain he's never had that done. Dad would tell me most things..not impossible but he did all his own basic servicing/maintenance, this car rarely went to a mechanic. This type of job would have been outside his skill level.

 

[mudgudgeon]

If you don't need to drive this to work tomorrow. Walk away. Come back to it in a day or two with a fresh head.

Its easy to get frustrated and turned around in circles chasing a ghost, when there's a simple solution. We've all been there, done that.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Your pic.

If this is what you're seeing with the timing light, that's roughly 25⁰BTDC.
Its advanced.
You're seeing #1 cylinder fire BEFORE the crank rotates around to TDC.

This is 100% what I'd expect to see with the ECU not in service mode.

IME it will fluctuate anywhere between about 25⁰-0⁰ BTDC when idling.

 

[mudgudgeon]

In regards to turning the crank, it is doable from the top.
I use a 1/2" ratchet. You have to reach in and work from below the fan to get the sticker onto the crank bolt.
It's a pain, and you'll probably scrape your arms up to do it, but it let's you see the timing marks as you rotate the engine.

Don't worry about it being 6 or 12 point socket. Use whatever you can get.

 

[mudgudgeon]

It sounds like its running ok on LPG?
This says to me, you have no major issue like cam timing, bad plug leads, or bad coil/igniter etc.
I think it's fair to assume the engine may have never been opened up for major work. Don't get distracted on maybes yet.
How many km has it done?


I think at this point here's where I'd start

1 - remove all plugs.
- Lay them out in order #1-#6 as you remove them. post a photo of all the plug tips.
- Do they all look the same?
- If any stand out as being different, it may indicate an isolated problem at one or more cylinders.
- If they are all fouled up, it may be worth replacing them even though they are new.
- were plug gaps set before fitting? Or fitted straight out of the box?
Gaps can vary a lot from the factory. It's best practice to check and set the gaps with feeler gauge.
- having plugs out makes it much easier to rotate the engine for following checks


2 - remove distributor cap.
3 -loosen the distributor and position it approximately centred on the adjustment bolt/slot
4 - rotate crank to TDC.

5 - check dizzy rotor button is pointing at #1 terminal. ( use sharpie etc to mark #1 terminal location on the distributor body before removing the cap)
- if it's 180⁰ wrong, rotate the crank another full rotation back to TDC.
- If its not quite pointing at #1 terminal, rotate the distributor body to see if you can point it at #1.
- If you run out of movement in the adjustment slot, the distributor drive gear may be 1 tooth out of position. (Its possible someone pulled the distributor at some point to replace the oring on the distributor housing. This is a common oil leak location.)

6 - refit dizzy cap, plugs, leads etc and start the engine
7 - if it started up ok, stop the engine.
Insert your paper clip in the diagnostic port. Restart the engine,
check engine light should be flashing.
8 - check timing with timing light.
9 - adjust diatributor position.

* If dizzy button is not pointing at #1 distibutor cap terminal with the distributor close to centred on the adjustment slot, remove the distributor assembly. (Clean it while it's out).
Reinstall the distributor assembly using the FSM procedure, and lining up the match marks on the distributor gear, and distributor housing.
Good guide here 'Timing Marks Won't Align' Timing Marks Won't Align - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/timing-marks-wont-align.1331362/post-15339156

* When the crank is at TDC, can you see the top of the #1 piston right there? Now is the time to probe this.
As the crank approaches TDC put something straight ( pencil etc) into the spark plug hole. Watch it rise as you rotate the crank toward TDC. It should stop rising when you're a few degrees away from TDC.
There's a bit of guess work here, but if upward movement of a probe doesn't stop approximately corresponding with the crank pulley timing mark meeting the 0⁰ mark on the timing case, it suggest harmonic balancer might be an issue.
You may have to rotate the crank several times to watch your probe rise, stall, drop a you rotate the crank through TDC. It takes a few go's to get a feel for when you're actually at TDC.

@Malleus if he's not seeing a consistent static timing advance with paper clip in place and CEL flashing, is there any checks for the ECU?

I personaly don't like a paperclip, I don't think it reliably makes good contact.
I have a piece of a stainless steel cable tie bent into a V shape I use. It's wide, flat, thin, springy and gets a reliable contact each time.

 

[Malleus]

Only this:

 

[Malleus]

FWIW, the service spec are 2°-13° when idling (not in service mode).

 

[petegangies]

I pulled all the plugs yesterday... they were not as fouled as the one I posted the pic of a few days ago. They mostly looked very similar to each other. I then cleaned them with a tooth brush and brake cleaner AFTER these pics were taken. I don't want to bother putting another set of new plugs otherwise they'll end up just fouling again. Sorry, there may be doubles in these pics, but I tried to take a photo of each plug from the front and back of the tip. Cylinder 5 was the only one I pulled the other day that was fouled right up. I didn't remove any others until last night.

 

[petegangies]

As for service mode...I tried some copper power wire as well as the paperclip. Both times, the check engine light was flashing. I still don't know whether this is an accurate confirmation that it's in service mode, but is all I've got to go off at the moment.

It is possible that dad has removed the distributor at some stage, whether to replace the o-ring or by mistake.

The car only has 150,000kms on it and has been garaged it's whole life. The garage is pretty stable temperature wise, so a lot of the rubbers etc are still in great condition.

I checked the gap before installing, and checked again last night. All are set at .8mm (they were pretty much set at this out of the box). They are NGK: BKR6EYA (one step hotter for LPG) per NGK recommendation.

 

[petegangies]

One last thing. I'm due to go away camping/fishing and towing the boat this thursday. I have used the vehicle running like this on a 650km round trip only a couple of months ago. Apart from poor cold starting, the car once warm ran okay.

Now that I've gone and played around with the timing, I'm nervous about it being safe to tow with. Theoretically, I have made the timing more conservative now right? As indicated by @mudgudgeon above, it was around 25 degrees, now I've got it sitting around 15, so it would be safer right? (even if the timing marks are out).

 

[petegangies]

ok, so I managed to find TDC and can confirm that it lines up with the zero on the timing marks. Where to next?

 

[ppc]

@petegangies , I think that rules out any issues with the harmonic balancer. Now that you found TDC, don't rotate the motor. Remove the distributor cap and take a picture of the position of the rotor and post. Does it appear to point to the #1 spark plug lead?

One other thing can you verify that the #1 lead on the distributor goes to the #1 spark plug. Check all the others to make sure they go to the proper cylinder. The distributor cap has numbers on the top.

 

[petegangies]

@petegangies , I think that rules out any issues with the harmonic balancer. Now that you found TDC, don't rotate the motor. Remove the distributor cap and take a picture of the position of the rotor and post. Does it appear to point to the #1 spark plug lead?

One other thing can you verify that the #1 lead on the distributor goes to the #1 spark plug. Check all the others to make sure they go to the proper cylinder. The distributor cap has numbers on the top.

I've gone slightly past TDC now, so I'll have to do another full revolution until the timing mark lines up again. I've checked the leads match the right spark plug a few times, so I'm comfortable with that. I'll get it back to TDC and remove the distributor cap and take a photo!

 

[petegangies]

I've gone slightly past TDC now, so I'll have to do another full revolution until the timing mark lines up again. I've checked the leads match the right spark plug a few times, so I'm comfortable with that. I'll get it back to TDC and remove the distributor cap and take a photo!

 

[petegangies]

Jesus christ, my heart just skipped a beat. I started the car without the black connector on top of the distributor plugged in properly and heard a few loud bangs and clangs and immediately stopped trying to crank. Discovered that was not clipped all the way on...... plugged it in and started fine, no more bangs and clangs! I think my soul just left my body temporarily—I thought I'd done something to the motor!!...

It did throw up an o2 sensor code (21) after that incident but it cleared after pulling the EFI fuse AND negative terminal off the battery....phew.

To anyone following... make sure this is plugged in properly BEFORE you start your car!

 

[petegangies]

In regards to turning the crank, it is doable from the top.
I use a 1/2" ratchet. You have to reach in and work from below the fan to get the sticker onto the crank bolt.
It's a pain, and you'll probably scrape your arms up to do it, but it let's you see the timing marks as you rotate the engine.

Don't worry about it being 6 or 12 point socket. Use whatever you can get.

I managed to get to it from the top using a smaller socket wrench, it would foul on the fan every now and then, but was still manageable.

 

[ppc]

@petegangies ,
To me the distributor is positioned properly, the adjustment lock bolt looks to provide adequate movement to fine tune.

Below are some good pictures from another thread that looks to be the same as your pics.

I personally have no experience on dual fuel setups so I will defer to others more knowledgeable to answer. That said there must be some electronics, piggyback controller, etc., that control the gas, lng or what ever term is used, differently than the OEM ignition system. Seems totally possible that the gas control would be setup to use significantly more advanced timing than petrol. Slower burning fuel etc. Taking a wild guess that the piggyback isn't switching timing to OEM for less advance when you do switch to petrol. Time to examine all of the non-oem wiring for loose or broken wire connections, bad ground etc. This may shed some light on why you expect different timing in service mode versus normal operation.

So here is my rotor at #1 tdc:

View attachment 3608165View attachment 3608166

So I should remove the distributor hold down, and slide it out, align those marks, and once reinstalled , it will end up pointing to the top left hold down (red line) instead of where it is now (blue line)?
View attachment 3608171

View attachment 3775078

 

[petegangies]

@petegangies ,
To me the distributor is positioned properly, the adjustment lock bolt looks to provide adequate movement to find tune.

Below are some good pictures from another thread that looks to be the same as your pics.

I personally have no experience on dual fuel setups so I will defer to others more knowledgeable to answer. That said there must be some electronics, piggyback controller, etc., that control the gas, lng or what ever term is used, differently than the OEM ignition system. Seems totally possible that the gas control would be setup to use significantly more advanced timing than petrol. Slower burning fuel etc. Taking a wild guess that the piggyback isn't switching timing to OEM for less advance when you do switch to petrol. Time to examine all of the non-oem wiring for loose or broken wire connections, bad ground etc. This may shed some light on why you expect different timing in service mode versus normal operation.

I'm not sure if the gas computer has the ability to switch between tunes for ignition. I think you may just need to find the sweet spot to support both LPG and Petrol, but I will be going to see the person who installed the gas in this vehicle on Thursday.

I'm not sure that would really explain why the idle and starting are all messed up though, but I could be wrong, I don't know much about the dual fuel setups either! Hoping this gas mechanic on Thursday will be able to educate me a bit more.

From now, I feel like I should check the factory fuel filter has been changed (not sure if it ever has, but marks on the mounting bolts and banjos would give a good indication), remove and clean IACV and then if still no good, I've got it booked into an auto electrician on Jan 8, unless the others on this thread can suggest anything else.

 

[ppc]

From now, I feel like I should check the factory fuel filter has been changed (not sure if it ever has, but marks on the mounting bolts and banjos would give a good indication), remove and clean IACV and then if still no good, I've got it booked into an auto electrician on Jan 8, unless the others on this thread can suggest anything else.

I would caution not to make any additional changes until the timing issue is resolved. The more you change the more complexity difficulty to identify root causes of problems. If the poor starting/running is occurring at idle but runs better at higher RPM's the fuel filters, pumps, injectors... are not going to be the problem. The filter can be changed at a later time. What happens when you try to start on petrol, open the throttle manually a small mount. If it starts/idles significantly better possibly the IAC could be a problem but doubtful. Don't mess with it at this time.

At this time the TDC, timing mark at zero and rotor pointing in the proper position then all mechanically is correct. Has to be electrical.

 

[robnicko]

Been reading all the posts,
Has the Air Flow meter been confirmed as good? You mention its been run on LPG the majority of its life and if any LPG backfires have happened could be damaged and the reason for the hunting idle on petrol

as far as timing is concerned mine is a 95 update model on LPG as well and have always run the std 3deg setting and same spark plugs as you are without any problem.

is it injected LPG or vapour through the TBody? I could see the standard intake tube between the air flow meter & TBody so am assuming injected