if you are going to run at hiway speeds you really need a panhard bar!
re-configure suspension (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rondog
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
How you figure?
Well I'm no engineer but I have been around a day or two....I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I do know that if 4 link w/out a panhard bar was such a great idea you would see alot more oem"s doing it..TWO MUCH SIDELOAD. There isn't enough room to do a 4-link properly with the correct angles to eliminate sideload problems without having rear stear issues. I have built several tube chassis crawlers with 4-link and no panhard bar,but I wouldn't drive it at 70 on the freeway. When I built my cruiser I wanted highway saftey and alot of flex. I spent alot of time measuring and figuring and all I could fit and be SAFE was a y-link with a panhard bar. I flex over 1000 on a ramp and it drives like a car.....Why would you do anything else.....If You want it safe and streetable.....Just my take on it.....and he did say he wanted it streetable..........Rod
And by the way I'm just talking front...I have anouther theory on the rear hehe.....Rod
So your version of streetable has the caster changing constantly? Y link on both sides? Wristed? How many factory suspensions are built like this now???Well I'm no engineer but I have been around a day or two....I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I do know that if 4 link w/out a panhard bar was such a great idea you would see alot more oem"s doing it..TWO MUCH SIDELOAD. There isn't enough room to do a 4-link properly with the correct angles to eliminate sideload problems without having rear stear issues. I have built several tube chassis crawlers with 4-link and no panhard bar,but I wouldn't drive it at 70 on the freeway. When I built my cruiser I wanted highway saftey and alot of flex. I spent alot of time measuring and figuring and all I could fit and be SAFE was a y-link with a panhard bar. I flex over 1000 on a ramp and it drives like a car.....Why would you do anything else.....If You want it safe and streetable.....Just my take on it.....and he did say he wanted it streetable..........Rod
Fawk, why not just do a true 3 link with a panhard bar? that way you can have as much travel as you want with no abrupt changes in axle orientation...
I fail to see what sideloading has to do with anything. If you build your suspension properly and with the strongest/most efficient materials what is the issue? Is it a handling thing? You talk about side loading like it is some majic thing. What is your actual concern?
You can build a suspension with a wishbone 3 link, true 3 link with a panhard, triangulated 4 link or 4 link with a panhard bar (5 link) and have it behave beautifully on the street.
It is not suspension type. It is suspension design..
It's not wristed
Side load ? magical? Hm...I really don't want an arguement but....do you realize how much sideload there is at 60 mph in a hard turn in a 5000lb vehicle? and it is impossible to get perfect geomitry with any of them....but I do know you can get closer with a 3 link than a four link...mine is essentially a 3-link....not wristed....and before you freak out I'm not saying mine is better...I just know that it's really really tough to fit 4-links under the front and have no rear steer or body sway and have it low enough to all work......maybe I missed something. I Just want it safe.....I wheel with alot of guys that have custom suspension....all the guys with 4 link are hauling them on a trailer....if we go far and it because they all drive TERRIBLE....are they all stupid and don't know what they are doing????I Don't think so.............Rod
First off, please describe your suspension. Or better, take a pic of it. Because you are arguing with yourself.. You describe a Y link but kinda only on one side, which would make it wristed. Then you call it a three link.
What does rear steer (I assume you are talking about the front end walking under the truck on articulation) have to do with suspension type?
Yes, I do understand the forces involved with a vehicle cornering at 60 mph. It is actually mild compared to what some of the off road trucks see..
Body sway is NOT a matter of link style but by link design.. A TON of other variables should be addressed before building a link system. It takes a reasonable amount of thought, and decision making to find what you can actually do what what you are given.
It IS tough to fit a 4 link under a truck that was not designed for it. Hell, most of the lift 4 link kits are compromises due to available room. But they are still safe. Saying that a panhard bar is the only way to make a front suspension safe is silly.
Your friends have poorly designed suspensions if they handle poorly..
What does rear steer (I assume you are talking about the front end walking under the truck on articulation) have to do with suspension type?
Yes, I do understand the forces involved with a vehicle cornering at 60 mph. It is actually mild compared to what some of the off road trucks see..
Body sway is NOT a matter of link style but by link design.. A TON of other variables should be addressed before building a link system. It takes a reasonable amount of thought, and decision making to find what you can actually do what what you are given.
It IS tough to fit a 4 link under a truck that was not designed for it. Hell, most of the lift 4 link kits are compromises due to available room. But they are still safe. Saying that a panhard bar is the only way to make a front suspension safe is silly.
Your friends have poorly designed suspensions if they handle poorly..
I didn't say that a panhard bar was the ONLY safe way but I think it's safer...but hell Mace sounds to me like you already have this all figured out......is yours streetable and safe and what is it....mine is a y link NOT WRISTED.....so ya its basicly a 3-link...but I can remove bolt on the trail and make it wristed.....but I'm from Idaho ...so what the hell do I know!....I'm just saying that if triangulated 4 link were safer oem would be building it....Rod
Sigh.. I absolutely do not know everything. My setup is a true 3 link front with a panhard in teh front and a doubly triangulated 4 link in the rear. It is very streetable. But the 40" tires and no fenders make it a bit of a target. Cruises comfortably at 70 and rides better than it ever did.. My 60 has a wishbone 3 link rear that has no lateral movement, but I am not sure how it handles on the road yet (have not finished the motor conversion)
You have a simple radius arm suspension. Very similar to what Bronco's have. It is a very functional suspension. But it is not the only way to do things..
Factories typically use panhard bars because it is super easy to design a suspension that has not bump steer with one.. hell, even my superduty on leaf springs has a panhard bar to reduce bumpsteer. It does not mean it is the only way to go. Far from it.
Why do your firends' rigs behave so poorly on road?
I have said it before and I'll say it again. It is not the suspension type, but the suspension design/geometry that makes it work or not work.. That is all..
You have a simple radius arm suspension. Very similar to what Bronco's have. It is a very functional suspension. But it is not the only way to do things..
Factories typically use panhard bars because it is super easy to design a suspension that has not bump steer with one.. hell, even my superduty on leaf springs has a panhard bar to reduce bumpsteer. It does not mean it is the only way to go. Far from it.
Why do your firends' rigs behave so poorly on road?
I have said it before and I'll say it again. It is not the suspension type, but the suspension design/geometry that makes it work or not work.. That is all..
I didn't say that a panhard bar was the ONLY safe way but I think it's safer...but hell Mace sounds to me like you already have this all figured out......is yours streetable and safe and what is it....mine is a y link NOT WRISTED.....so ya its basicly a 3-link...but I can remove bolt on the trail and make it wristed.....but I'm from Idaho ...so what the hell do I know!....I'm just saying that if triangulated 4 link were safer oem would be building it....Rod
dont have to get all butt hurt bout this.
What i think mace is saying is that you keep contradicting yourself with what you are saying. your saying its one thing then its another. I under stand that you are saying you can remove a bolt then its wristed bla bla bla.... just take some pics so everyone can see. maybe everyone including yourself will learn something from this discusion.
now as far as why oem doesnt use that type of suspension...
why would they? how many vehicles have solid front axles anymore? couple fords, dodges, heeps... so not many ond really you will prolly find 1 of em on the trail that would need that sorta flex. i would say 99% of those vehicles will NEVER see the offroad. so why would an OEM manufacturer spend so much more money on something that will meerly make it flex up a little better. many of those are work trucks (cept for the heep) it would be a good design but it would not increase the sales numbers enough to make it worth it to the company. and some vehicle manufactures do use a 4 link rear suspension from factory buddy of mine has a 91 toyota previa and it has a 4 link rear with a panhard. its a minivan and an old one at that. but how many minivans have a solid rear axle anymore? better yet much less a RWD.
And i hate to say it but your friends trucks that "have" to be trailered due to how bad they handle is no fault but the builder/ designer. sure it may do great and flex up nice off road but some things need to be taken into consideration for street driving. had the suspension been designed/built better they would be able to SAFELY operate the vehicles at hwy speeds and still have the same flex if not even possibly better
. and the vehicle handle well still. Ive seen lots of people build truggys and buggies with only offroad in mind any theyre intention is to trailer it anyway. so many of em could care less bout street performance so long as the way it acts off road is predictable and functions properly.thats my $0.02
Eskimo
SILVER Star
Wow..Go to tellico for a few days and look what I miss.
I'm double triangulated F&R and my pile drives just fine on the road. But I trailer it because I play hard.. You can't even use the "trailered because it handles poorly" excuse, as there's so many different reasons to trailer.
But you either suck at explaining what it is you have / have built, or you don't know WTF you're trying to explain.
Personally, if you want to play on the "safety" aspect, isn't it better to distribute the side load amongst 4 links and 8 ends, rather than 1 link and 2 ends?
In addition to the reasons mentioned, the OEM uses panhard bards extensively because at stock ride height, packaging is VERY interesting at the least to try and fit triangulated links. straight links and a panhard out front is far easier. Not to mention OEM's typically use very short links which would bring out some interesting axle behavor when you start twisting things up.
Having built "Several tube chassis crawlers" means just that.. I saw alot of tube chassis crap on the trail this weekend, too. If you wouldn't drive them at 70, I hope you welded the shift rails into low range..
I'm double triangulated F&R and my pile drives just fine on the road. But I trailer it because I play hard.. You can't even use the "trailered because it handles poorly" excuse, as there's so many different reasons to trailer.
But you either suck at explaining what it is you have / have built, or you don't know WTF you're trying to explain.
Personally, if you want to play on the "safety" aspect, isn't it better to distribute the side load amongst 4 links and 8 ends, rather than 1 link and 2 ends?
In addition to the reasons mentioned, the OEM uses panhard bards extensively because at stock ride height, packaging is VERY interesting at the least to try and fit triangulated links. straight links and a panhard out front is far easier. Not to mention OEM's typically use very short links which would bring out some interesting axle behavor when you start twisting things up.
Having built "Several tube chassis crawlers" means just that.. I saw alot of tube chassis crap on the trail this weekend, too. If you wouldn't drive them at 70, I hope you welded the shift rails into low range..
Wow, first of I would like to say that I'm sorry if somehow this got off on the wrong foot. Someone wrote in asking basically for opinions on what he was building and other Ideas. So... Just as I said I had 2 cents...maybe thats all it was to you and thats fine. Now, with that said I was really trying to be nice, what that fella is building will break and could kill someone...There are some serious design flaws and reallisticly (and no offence) It would be alot easier ( and safer) for this person to build a panhard bar setup. Triangulated 4 link is great but in order to fit it all with absolutley no compramizes under the front of a non full width rig is really really tough and not everyone has the knowlage or the understanding to be able to do this....This is engineering. Anyone can build it but to build it right is the tricky part.. And if you guys are able to run yours at highway speeds then cool..you are smarter than most.
I also would like to say I really didn't want to get pownced on for voicing my opinion. I know I don't have this all figured out or I wouldn't be here. I'm not a dumb kid either though, in fact I was getting layed and racing sand drags when you were about 10 mace.
And maybe someday I'll get some pics of my link setup on here.
Sorry for all the drama ....Just had an opinion like everyone else
Rod
I also would like to say I really didn't want to get pownced on for voicing my opinion. I know I don't have this all figured out or I wouldn't be here. I'm not a dumb kid either though, in fact I was getting layed and racing sand drags when you were about 10 mace.
And maybe someday I'll get some pics of my link setup on here.
Sorry for all the drama ....Just had an opinion like everyone else
Rod
A. Please explain why his suspension design won't work/break/kill someone (other than the weak upper link mounts that have been previously discussed).Wow, first of I would like to say that I'm sorry if somehow this got off on the wrong foot. Someone wrote in asking basically for opinions on what he was building and other Ideas. So... Just as I said I had 2 cents...maybe thats all it was to you and thats fine. Now, with that said I was really trying to be nice, what that fella is building will break and could kill someone...There are some serious design flaws and reallisticly (and no offence) It would be alot easier ( and safer) for this person to build a panhard bar setup. Triangulated 4 link is great but in order to fit it all with absolutley no compramizes under the front of a non full width rig is really really tough and not everyone has the knowlage or the understanding to be able to do this....This is engineering. Anyone can build it but to build it right is the tricky part.. And if you guys are able to run yours at highway speeds then cool..you are smarter than most.
I also would like to say I really didn't want to get pownced on for voicing my opinion. I know I don't have this all figured out or I wouldn't be here. I'm not a dumb kid either though, in fact I was getting layed and racing sand drags when you were about 10 mace.
And maybe someday I'll get some pics of my link setup on here.
Sorry for all the drama ....Just had an opinion like everyone else
Rod
B. What design flaws (other than the weak upper link mounts)
C. You did not get pounced on. You voiced your opinion which is good. We all learn from each other here. No one knows everything including myself. But the statement "if you are going to run at hiway speeds you really need a panhard bar!" is just not correct. You need air to breathe and live. You do not need a panhard bar to drive safely at 70. It is easier to set up the suspension with a 3 link or a radius arm suspension.. But it is not the only way. Been saying that the entire time..
D. I am super happy you were gettin laid when I was 10. I now have so much more respect for your opinion.
E. Please have your opinion and voice it. We honestly welcome different experiences. Just do not take it personally if your opinion is not necessarily the best (and no, I am not saying in this instance you were wrong). If you have an opinion and feel the need to voice it, then please have substnace to back it up. Guaranteed, if you have a better idea than I do, I'll back off and say that I was wrong..
and I never said the only way....Man ....I've only been on here a few weeks and you have an opinion for everything and everyone and everyone else is wrong...I can see I'm not needed on this forum beings how you have the( book of mace.).I said In the beginging that I didn't want an arguement just had an opinion....and now I can see as plain as day that I'm wrong and have no Idea what I'm talking about. So I'll just continue to wheel with guys and bad suspensions and finish next my single seat rear engine buggy with a 3 link.(Like everyone else is running) Maybe someday I'll see you on the trail....I'll be the guy with the 3 like panhard setup......Rod
No one ever said your opinion was wrong or that you should leave. We do respect your experience. There are not that many people who have actually built link suspensions. It would be too bad to lose .
But do not discount others experiences as well. If you have good reasons for saying what you have, then present them. lots of minds (including mine) are changed on this board all the time.
But do not discount others experiences as well. If you have good reasons for saying what you have, then present them. lots of minds (including mine) are changed on this board all the time.
