RADIATOR FAN FZJ80 - long (2 Viewers)

[SUMOTOY]

LX 470 Race Results - post mortum

Timed the radiator removal at 20minutes... Not something I really want to get better at.

Dan: Forget the shroud, it's not the problem. I put in a 4 clipped blade fan with *no shroud at all*, and I just ringed the radiator.... Again. Problem appears to be redlining a truck with fan blades that fex. Period. Prior to my race, 4500 was my max rpm.

My suspicion is two fold. First, I'm betting this motor bounces around some under full throttle. What makes me think a more rigid mount won't work, is my radiator trace is perfect. I would expect to see some wobble rings in the core if it's a moving motor.

Second, I have read up on the VC thermostats in terms of locking and unlocking ability (mine is operating correctly - baselined against a new thermo I put in a customer 93). Searching around a bit in on the net, it appears that slipping at high rpm could be intermittently interspersed with full lockup, with or without a new thermo installed. A known issue to those running high rpm.

I'm starting to think that the best solution may be electric fans. I'd love to chase forward with toyotas cool design offerings on fan blades, but risking a new radiator on it, doesn't sound like an option I want to take.

In the meantime, I'm off to the radiator shop to get 2 more rows blocked for the immediate time being. However, I'm going to come to the conclusion that a non ringed fan with a different or modified shroud, still runs the same risk of schrapnel as a shrouded one. I wouldn't be comfortable using the same design non ringed blade without protecting the radiator.

Solution appears to be Christo's idea of putting a safety ring around the radiator, or just ditching the clutch fan in favor of electrics.

I'll post my solution soon.

Scott Justusson

 

[cruiserdan]

Try a 16361-65020 blade. I haven't hit mine yet.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Try a 16361-65020 blade. I haven't hit mine yet.

Did you reduce the size of the SC fan clutch spacer? What did your blade to radiator clearance end up being with the new fan blade?

 

[cruiserdan]

No, I did not. The 16361-65020 is in about the same plane as the 16361-65010 (ringer). I forget the exact measurements but about dead even.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Not yet Dan - Data

Try a 16361-65020 blade. I haven't hit mine yet.

I haven't had a chance to digest all my measures yet, but I believe from what I have found so far, you might just be lucky Dan, or you just don't redline the truck like I do. Here's the measures I took post mortum.

NEW STOCK FJ80 FAN WITH TRD SPACER
TRD SPACER FOR SC - .75in
Stock blade tip to radiator (12 o'clock position) = 1.125in
Depth of 5000rpm Ring cut in Radiator Core = .50in
Diameter of Stock Blade = 18.50
Diameter of Radiator Core Ring Damage = 17.125
Blade Radius deformation at 5000rpm = 1.375in
Blade Depth deformation at 5000rpm = 1.125 + .50 = 1.625in

REFERENCE:
TRD RINGED FAN AND TRD SPACER
Ring to Radiator (12 o'clock position) = 1.125
Blade deformation at 5000rpm = 0

Now, with this data, let's delete the Spacer

NO SPACER
Stock blade to Radiator = 1.125 + .75 = 1.875in
Depth of deformation at 5000rpm = 1.625
Clearance Blade to Radiator at 5000rpm = .250


Let's round the numbers to accomodate vortex, luck, fan placement in shroud, etc. A stock fan blade on a stock truck has approx 1/2in clearance to the radiator core at 5000rpm.

My Conclusion:
TRD specifies the ringed fan so that the Radius Deformation and Depth Deformation = 0. So, with a TRD spacer, the Fan>Radiator clearance is 1.125 at 5000rpm, and without the TRD spacer the Fan>Radiator Clearance is 1.875in at 5000rpm

Dan, I don't have the specifics on the fan you are recommending, but I really doubt that *any* non ringed fan will have 'more' clearance under load than the ringed fan TRD specifies. With .75in spacer your critical dimension is 1.125in at 12 o'clock.

I'm much more comfortable with a Ringed Fan keeping the blades without deformation away from my radiator. I'd come to this conclusion with or without Spacer > with or without supercharger.

Maybe you can find something I am missing here. I'm with Phil, what's the fan blade tip to Radiator Clearance on the 65020? Given the blade depth deformation number, I'm not sure I'd want the stock fan on a stock truck.

Scott Justusson
6 blades of 8 now trimmed off my new stock fan...

 

[firetruck41]

Dan...Maybe you can find something I am missing here...

20+ years of experience selling Toyota parts, owning an 80 since new, running a supercharger for years under strenuous towing and off road conditions, selling more 80 series parts then any other Toyota dealer (just a guess), having sold many supercharger systems and being the supplier of parts for the same people, being active on the 80 series forums since long before 'mud...

 

[SUMOTOY]

20+ years of experience selling Toyota parts, owning an 80 since new, running a supercharger for years under strenuous towing and off road conditions, selling more 80 series parts then any other Toyota dealer (just a guess), having sold many supercharger systems and being the supplier of parts for the same people, being active on the 80 series forums since long before 'mud...

I didn't miss that at all... Couldn't one use the same arguments, plus some, to support TRD 'opinion' and spec, that the ringed fan is the *correct* application for a SC truck? None of us need a reminder regarding Dan's value or expertise. The problem with opinions without numbers, they are subjective, and open to objective scrutiny. The numbers I measured are replicable, and don't appear to support Dan's null hypothesis, or conclusion, that the TRD ringed fan is a POS in this application.

FT, I appreciate you taking the time to read my post to the very end, but you missed the meat of it. I'd rather focus comments on the numbers, the problems, and the solutions to them; not the people. A literal definition of '80-Series Tech' possibly?

My data and conclusions indicate that the radiator munching problem manifests itself at high rpm, and is specifically caused by fan blade deformation between 4500-5200rpm. This appears to support TRD use of a ringed fan to reduce/eliminate blade deformation. If you or Dan have some data, or can conclude something different from my very numbers, or have some others, please post them up.

FT, I'm happy to 'share' my background research, theory, data, conclusions and opinions. I do it because my FJ80 is my personal toy. It appears to have little value to you, I understand that completely, then let it play out. I'm new to this forum, I'm not new to technical posts, sound automotive theory and design, and practical evaluations in implementing them. I'm not a threat, only a well seasoned tweekster trying to find solutions that fit accepted theory, application and data.

Thanks

Scott Justusson
'94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[firetruck41]

Some things just can't be measured with calipers. Your right, your posts are of no value to me, and just rub me the wrong way. I'll do better not to read them, best for me to just activate the aforementioned filter.

 

[cruiserdan]

Perhaps I should mention that TRD now recommends "my" fan to clients that have cooling issues. Maybe that doesn't matter though.....

 

[SUMOTOY]

Perhaps I should mention that TRD now recommends "my" fan to clients that have cooling issues. Maybe that doesn't matter though.....

Data Dan. Please? 12 0'clock position fan blade to radiator clearance. If its "same as the ringed, to the best of your recollection", I have already figured out a non destructive fan blade deformation test.

Thanks

SJ

 

[cruiserdan]

According to my trusty Stanley and my almost 48-year-old eyes there is a teensy bit over an inch.

Another perhaps meaningless tidbit: In numerous conversations with the guys at TRD that assembled the system I learned that the selection of the fan was not anywhere near as scientific as you may think. They simply dug around 'til they found one that didn't hit the radiator and that was all they were thinking about at the time. Once they found one that didn't hit they quit looking.


D-

 

[sleeoffroad]

I didn't miss that at all... Couldn't one use the same arguments, plus some, to support TRD 'opinion' and spec, that the ringed fan is the *correct* application for a SC truck?

My gut feeling about this is that TRD picked whatever Toyota fan they had with the right diameter and had a ring so it does not deflect. When that fan was speced none of the heating issues had shown up.

As for a stock fan going through a radiator without a SC, I have never seen that, other than on my truck where the body lift cost miss allignment and the fan got caught on the shroud.

 

[sleeoffroad]

Hey Dan, great minds think alike, fools never differ.

 

[SUMOTOY]

According to my trusty Stanley and my almost 48-year-old eyes there is a teensy bit over an inch.

Another perhaps meaningless tidbit: In numerous conversations with the guys at TRD that assembled the system I learned that the selection of the fan was not anywhere near as scientific as you may think. They simply dug around 'til they found one that didn't hit the radiator and that was all they were thinking about at the time. Once they found one that didn't hit they quit looking.


D-

Big difference between digging in the bin finding a ringed fan that didn't hit, and a non ringed fan that didn't hit. We can deduce that TRD saw 3/4in spacer causing a blade deflection/clearance problem, specifically, it probably did chew a radiator (yeah!). Given that, digging into the bin only required the same offset with a ringed blade - a teensy bit over an inch stays that way with a ringed fan, it is not a constant with a non ringed fan. So, given two blades of the same offset, *any* non ringed blade will be closer to the radiator at 5000rpm. I'd read something else into it all, if the offest between the ringed and the non ringed was significant.

Here's my experiment for blade deflection Use 1/2 in foam board and attach it to the radiator core. Drive vehicle to 5000rpm, and look for scoring on the foam. I really doubt you'd have to double it.

I'm still looking for data. I see 'overheating' issue mentioned here, and clearance issues mentioned here. What data do you have comparing the ringed fan to the one you are using? Airflow, temp or some other measure?

SJ
46 year old eyes (in 3 days), squintin at the myutoto...

 

[SUMOTOY]

My gut feeling about this is that TRD picked whatever Toyota fan they had with the right diameter and had a ring so it does not deflect. When that fan was speced none of the heating issues had shown up.

I'd agree with that... What heating issues? I haven't seen that data.

As for a stock fan going through a radiator without a SC, I have never seen that, other than on my truck where the body lift cost miss allignment and the fan got caught on the shroud.

Ok, so we can leave the 1.685 as the max spec. Rpm is the same, so we can say that a stock fan will be less than 1/2in from the radiator at 5000rpm.

If that's the case, then IDoug has the most important post of them all, clean out your radiator and condensor, and often. An obstructed radiator will cause the fan to be even closer to the radiator with a non ringed fan.

SJ

 

[sleeoffroad]

I'd agree with that... What heating issues? I haven't seen that data.

Talk to AZ people with superchargers installed on mostly 93/94 trucks.

There should be tons of post on here about that, as well as the old SOR forum and 80 series list.

 

[cruiserdan]

Hey Dan, great minds think alike, fools never differ.

Where do we fall in that?................

 

[cruiserdan]

I'd agree with that... What heating issues? I haven't seen that data.

I have experienced "overheating" in my vehicle when towing. On the flats it would run 195-200 and pulling hills, particularly long ones, the temp would climb to past 220 easily and past 226 in a couple cases (verified by the A/C compressor cutting out). I have kept it out of "the red" however by backing out of the throttle. In my testing since installing this other blade the coolant temp has not climbed as fast or as far under similar conditions, yet.

D-

 

[SUMOTOY]

I have experienced "overheating" in my vehicle when towing. On the flats it would run 195-200 and pulling hills, particularly long ones, the temp would climb to past 220 easily and past 226 in a couple cases (verified by the A/C compressor cutting out). I have kept it out of "the red" however by backing out of the throttle. In my testing since installing this other blade the coolant temp has not climbed as fast or as far under similar conditions, yet.

D-

That could be a blade vs rpm thing, IOW the rpm band where you are towing is better suited to the fan you installed. That might prove difficult as a summary opinion of the fan to any other application or conditions.

I'd also present that you would probably do better with an oil cooler as a safety margin. Squirting the bottoms of pistons with cooled oil will help an inducted motor right where it matters most.

SJ

 

[cruiserdan]

I imagine it could but as I explained to you in our exchange of PM's I have noticed a slow speed difference, or more precicely a standing still difference, as well. Again a subjective opinion, based on my experience with a single vehicle.