RADIATOR FAN FZJ80 - long

[RavenTai]

Couple comments,

tip vortices are a real problem and rob efficiency from an airfoil, winglets on newer aircraft wings and turbine tip clearance control on turbine engines are some examples of reducing this loss. A ringed fan will help with this one aspect, and you are correct that all other things being equal the ringed fan will be more efficient but that is not the only measure of a fan and the fans talked about here vary in many other ways

Deformation of the airfoil is not necessarily a bad thing, if the deformation was taken into consideration during the design of the fan than it can be mitigated.

The dead spot in the stock gauge is much larger than 195>210, it is more like 170 to 230 for little movement, slightly tighter for no movement, You can find a thread in the FAQ section discussion with methods.

Considering all the variables involved I will take real world results of these different fans as final word until I see different.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Dusty,

What'cha got against the 80's cooling system?

DougM

 

[SUMOTOY]

Scott,

Good discussion on airflow dynamics and boundaries. While/when you do your testing I think what would be most useful are actual coolant temps at varying loads/RPMs as that's really the bottom line for fan performance - impact on cooling. You mentioned baselining the guage with an IR gun, but mentally I get a vision of you standing there with the hood up which isn't the same as perhaps using an OBDII reader in the cockpit while driving. Someone did that a while back and got excellent data.

Excellent stuff, but gather some data, man!!!! Heh...

Informationally, I have always felt that many overlook one of the most basic ways to enhance cooling which is to clean off the radiator fins with concentrated Simple Green or similar. I did this on my Subaru at only 23,000 miles and registered 7-14 degrees cooler vent temps at the dashboard. The amount of dust and grime that hits the radiator is astonishing, and it's nice to see it flowing down the driveway. Of course, this showed the increase in effectiveness of the A/C condensor but when transferring heat to air it helps to have clean fins. I do this annually and tow an overweight load on mountain passes all summer with nary a cooling issue. Just a sideboard to your thread here in the pursuit of effective cooling.

Anyhow, actual temps of various fans on a truck in operation would be excellent and you might have these, but thought I'd point out their usefulness. We used to use them routinely while doing destructive towing tests on cooling systems.

DougM

All good points Doug:
My experience with the FJ80 indicates to me that the cooling system is pretty decent, or maybe I should say, it has all the right elements for a good system: Massive frontal area, good water flow, standard accepted design. What I'm looking at is optimizing what's there. Toyota didn't really add any ducting *to* the radiator, nor is there much/any allowance for heat to exit the engine bay. As trucks and cars became/become more aero over the years, and 134a systems less efficient, the need for ducting has been designed into front ends of vehicles. That said, it's easier and cheaper than the best fan you could ever buy from any toyota application.

I haven't really seen the need to put a temp guage in my truck. I baselined the 'definition' of hot on the factory guage, and use it as a reference. That said, I've never been a water temp kind of guy anyhow. My concern in all race/street cars is oil temp, because it's a better long term indicator of engine temperature. Short term fluctuations in water temp don't bother me at all (remember I come from a water cooled turbo background), it's oil temp stability that dictates all the destructive things happening.

Cleaning the cooling fins, inside and out is an excellent maintenance idea. There is no such thing as "lifetime" coolant (I won't go into that thread), and obstructed fins are more than a nuisance, they can massively affect cooling performance.

I've looked into this cooling issue on the 80 intently over the past several weeks. I'm not at all convinced that the ringed fan is a POS, nor am I convinced that folks here are addressing heat management issues. I would expect any turbo or SC truck to run hotter. The real trick is getting the heat to exchange. That, by definition, requires one spend time on entrance and exit from the radiator. A 'better' fan in a SC or turbo truck won't do a darn thing if you are trapping all that heat aft of the radiator.

SJ

 

[SUMOTOY]

The Toy truck fan Dan mentioned solved my overheating issues with a TRD supercharcher. The "ringed fan" that comes with the super charger is a piece of SHHHH. It moves little to no air at all RPMs. compared to other non ringed fans.

How did you test that exactly? I seen the statement here many times, I just haven't seen support of it yet. I would expect the 8 blade fan to cool better at idle, and lose it's advantage as rpm's increase. Why? Because more blades becomes less efficient at higher rpm's, more blade deflection means the fan is less efficient at higher rpms, and a diverter nozzle should dissipate high rpm pressure better than an open fan.

I read the exact opposite from someone else above. If the hood gets hotter with the ringed fan, there is more heat exchange. If changing to a non ringed fan caused the hood to get 'less' hot, then there isn't an effective heat exchange.

Could it be gents, that better radiator heat exchange, with a SC heater underhood, causes a high underhood temperatures? Then, 'a' solution is to use a less efficient fan to prevent high underhood temps.

Just a thought.

SJ

 

[SUMOTOY]

Couple comments,

tip vortices are a real problem and rob efficiency from an airfoil, winglets on newer aircraft wings and turbine tip clearance control on turbine engines are some examples of reducing this loss. A ringed fan will help with this one aspect, and you are correct that all other things being equal the ringed fan will be more efficient but that is not the only measure of a fan and the fans talked about here vary in many other ways

Ok. RT, I have both the ringed and the non ringed stocker sitting here in my office. I see both carry the same blade design, one has 8 blades (non ringed), one has 7 (ringed)

Deformation of the airfoil is not necessarily a bad thing, if the deformation was taken into consideration during the design of the fan than it can be mitigated.

RT, you give more credit to toyota than I would. I'm a 15 year blowmolding plastics guy by training. I know that the ringed fan cost a LOT more to manufacture than a non ringed fan. We can agree that deformed blades will change the fan airflow characteristics massively with very little change.

The dead spot in the stock gauge is much larger than 195>210, it is more like 170 to 230 for little movement, slightly tighter for no movement, You can find a thread in the FAQ section discussion with methods.

In my truck I was looking for 'normal' , a rise above normal and the 250 mark. I defined normal as 1 pointer below half way, I defined 'rise' as half way, and concern as 3/4. A gauge can be quite accurate 'reference' unto itself. I baseline all marque factory guages this way. That said, I put in simple stock guages (even in the race cars), with a big yellow light for water (250f). I put in oil temp guages regularly, because they are a better indicator of heat trends. IMO.

Considering all the variables involved I will take real world results of these different fans as final word until I see different.

Ok, in the real world, I've seen 'opinion' on the ringed fan that contradicts it's design. I just don't buy that the fan blades are all elixer/solutions to heat problems.... "Considering all the variables involved" = rpm. What about the boundary layer between the fan blade tips and the radiator in a shroud?

Again, I'm confused whether we are addressing heat or fitment. If it's fitment, then fit for use is defined as exactly two givens: 'non interference' and 'non overheat' events. Claiming more isn't documented yet.

Scott Justusson

 

[SUMOTOY]

scott
I dont think the 80 series cooling system is so great and neither will your fanless truck once ambient air temps heat up

YMMV? Here's my opinion and baseline. I have driven my truck 20k miles, many times with tandem axle trailer attached with car. I put in a supercharger, drove it to altitude (7200feet) and put it on a track. I sucked the radiator fan into the radiator, blocked off a few rows, and trimmed the stock fan, back on track. I ended up just pulling the radiator fan out, and running it on track and home (granted low ambient, no fan or shroud for 100 track miles and 1100 road miles. I've used the cheapest premix green antifreeze (another thread!) since I bought the truck.

Since that time, I have put my trimmed radiator fan back in for rush hour comfort zone in chicago. I run premium gas (not shell tho), change my oil regularly using factory filters and castrol GTX.

I'm all up for discussion or opinion with some btdt, data or sound theory. Right now, I just disagree with you unless you can point out exactly why the cooling system isn't so great. Then, if we all hang in long enough, (my goal) we can use some of this information to weed out real fixes from the opinions.

SJ

 

[firetruck41]

EDIT: Never mind.

 

[landtank]

I've mentioned this several times but it typically gets pushed aside. I've recommended louvers for guys that have a hot running vehicle. In one case someone had actually noticed a temp difference with the hood closed over having it open which I would think would point to restricted air flow out of the engine compartment, that i beleive was a V8 conversion.

The typical response is comcerns over getting the compartment wet. I think Photoman has louvered his truck but has yet to run it.

Also as a test I suggested spacing the hood off of the hinges to provide a space at the rear to validate that there was a restriction on that side of things.

 

[Beowulf]

First off, I'm fairly new to this board, but have extensive cooling management experience in turbocharged applications.

Scott,

I will gladly concede your credentials if you would please stop presenting them over and over. In 5 of your first 6 posts in this thread you document your experience. That would get a little tedious if we all did that... Dan has 26 years in the parts business.... Raven is a commercial aircraft mechanic... Doug was in product development with Toyota.... Photoman is... well... I dunno, but he sure has a lot of practical experience in just about everthing including spitting llamas. I don't know about you, but if they each detailed their resume multiple times in every thread then I would have a lot more people on my twit filter.

One more thing.... Welcome.

-B-

 

[LX_TREME]

Landtank, How about these louvers?

I've mentioned this several times but it typically gets pushed aside. I've recommended louvers for guys that have a hot running vehicle. In one case someone had actually noticed a temp difference with the hood closed over having it open which I would think would point to restricted air flow out of the engine compartment, that i beleive was a V8 conversion.

The typical response is comcerns over getting the compartment wet. I think Photoman has louvered his truck but has yet to run it.

Also as a test I suggested spacing the hood off of the hinges to provide a space at the rear to validate that there was a restriction on that side of things.

 

[SUMOTOY]

I've mentioned this several times but it typically gets pushed aside. I've recommended louvers for guys that have a hot running vehicle. In one case someone had actually noticed a temp difference with the hood closed over having it open which I would think would point to restricted air flow out of the engine compartment, that i beleive was a V8 conversion.

The typical response is comcerns over getting the compartment wet. I think Photoman has louvered his truck but has yet to run it.

Also as a test I suggested spacing the hood off of the hinges to provide a space at the rear to validate that there was a restriction on that side of things.

Rick:
Completely agree that this deserves consideration. If you added a SC you have added underhood heat. If you can't get it out, a better fan will add more heat.

Hood vents can work well, especially just aft of the radiator, or along side the engine. Louvers in the wheel wells are easy access to low pressure zones as well.

Unless the truck has a snorkel setup, hood vents shouldn't introduce water necessarily. Many stock vents have drip trays, like alll 2.2 dodge turbos and z34 chevy hood vents.

I believe you will find that raising the rear of the hood might present an 'cowl induction' problem, not a heat release solution. No question that your concerns about airflow out are quite valid Rick.

Scott Justusson

 

[SUMOTOY]

Scott,

I will gladly concede your credentials if you would please stop presenting them over and over. In 5 of your first 6 posts in this thread you document your experience. That would get a little tedious if we all did that... Dan has 26 years in the parts business.... Raven is a commercial aircraft mechanic... Doug was in product development with Toyota.... Photoman is... well... I dunno, but he sure has a lot of practical experience in just about everthing including spitting llamas. I don't know about you, but if they each detailed their resume multiple times in every thread then I would have a lot more people on my twit filter.

One more thing.... Welcome.

-B-

Thanks:
I like to get beyond the 'don't do that' posts as quickly as I can to get to the meat. I'm not looking to butt heads, only find answers with something more than opinion attached to them. That tends to ruffle feathers. I put up some of my btdt to avoid that. Backfire... Oh, well.

I'm only looking for solutions to problems. I've got lots of opinions, and enjoy the chase to automotive solutions (even more when I get paid to). I've used the search engine here extensively, and know this won't be my first controversial post in the 80 forum.

I hope it only gets better for us all from here.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll try to work on presentation too.


SJ

 

[SUMOTOY]

Z34 CHEVY VENTS on 80 hood

My thinking, without the drip trays attached. One over the SC, the other over the intake.....

LXE - nice hood

SJ

 

[SUMOTOY]

Hood vents in a toyota turbo

My 87 factory 4R turbo truck, with the addition of a boost controller 3in exhaust, and other heat mods, er, pointed me to exactly where to put the hood vent holes...

These vents are actually rear bumper HVAC dumps from some vw application (read: cheap). BTW, these vents have no drip trays, and I ran them rain or shine (on and off road) for 6years without any problems.

SJ

 

[cruiserdan]

I have considered fender vents behind the tires knda like an FJ60 has (since the inner fenders are full of holes anyway). and a couple marine bilge blowers. The one that's in my boat moves a fair ammount of air.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Mitsubishi and Land Rover both have plastic vents available that should be easy to get into the fender wells. I'd skip the bilge pump Dan. A spinning tire creates a low pressure zone, so the heat will find it's way out, and bilges tend to use ducting, which is restrictive. I still think for low speed rock crawling, you need to get some of that trapped heat out of the hood.

On the turbo 4R/audis, you could heat your pizza up if you put it over those hood vent holes. I'm still thinkiing one directly above the SC on the 80 should address a lot of the heat problem, it's just behind the radiator fan enough, and it's above the Kazuma and the exhaust manifold.

SJ

 

[Beowulf]

There are a couple of louver ideas in this thread. You can also search on "louver" in the 80 section and come up with a few more. Photoman has functional hood and side louvers on his garage queen.

-B-

 

[IdahoDoug]

SJ,

Take a deep breath. I think ideas that come up merit discussion, not dismissal. For instance, Dan's comment on a marine bilge blower. In 3 sentences you went from telling him it's not a viable idea. Then that a spinning tire will handle it. Then slow speed rock crawling creates a need.

As a reader, I see you rejecting the bilge blower because ducting is restrictive. Um, yes ducting is a neccessary evil. But if you turn on such a blower, you WILL move hot air out of the engine bay. Period.

Then the spinning wheel - sure at high tire speeds it spins a lot. But at rock crawling speeds there is zero tire caused air movment. So, that solution doesn't apply to rock crawling, but a bilge blower surely would.

Just a comment that sometimes your posts (and this is a perfect example) focus on rejecting things without considering how it sounds/reads.

Great stuff though - keep the discussion going!!!1

DougM

 

[Waggoner5]

On my 62 with the 502, the underhood temps dropped 25* with relatively small Pontiac GTP louvers. The truck did NOT run much cooler but seemed to run better with the IAT being lower. The IAT was reading 140-180* depending. The Mercruiser computer was designed for 130* IAT for arguments. There was a tremendous amount of air coning out of the louvers though.

On another note, my 45 project on the 96 chassis has the rad in the rear of the truck sitting horizontal. For testing purposes with no fan, on an 85 degree day, various RPMs but no loads, the truck would not run over 187*on a handheld OBD scanner. I also took my handheld infared themomter all over the engine and could not find any hot spots. The thermostat would not even open completely. This was no super high tech NASA experiment but more to see how hot or cool it would run without the radiator in front and no sheetmetal to hold in the air. I think that the single best thing one could do to help an 80 cool is to do something to allow the hot air outof the engine compartment. It is entirely to packed with Caca to allow air flow.

 

[cruiserdan]

Do the Pontiac vents have catch pans under them?


If you can put a boat motor in one of those I should be able to fit bilge blowers, no? :hillbilly





Oh, I still think that 62 is one of the coolest rides I have EVER seen.....:hillbilly