cruisedeisel
Toyota's for life
has anyone done this to a 3b yet?
how about water methanol to cool her off?
how about water methanol to cool her off?
propane injected turbo diesel
- Thread starter cruisedeisel
- Start date
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Why ??
A proper 4 row rad , X-cross drop flow , great electro fan with one way venting doors (to stop the fan just moving the same air around it) , then an intercooler to cool the charge air if need be.
Propane is drafted / mixed in by volume into the air stream . So you must have an evap / shut off valve / tank , plus now a mixer ?? For what ? Less BTU than petrol / gas , but a longer flame front (less ping) ..
Still WHY ?
Diesels that have been converted from Diesel to a Gas LP or Methane run are normally stationary , and are used because of the compression ratios of diesel engine.
The pumping station under Lions Gate every LT is run on poop-gas to flush the tanks , diesels using your sewage ..
VT
A proper 4 row rad , X-cross drop flow , great electro fan with one way venting doors (to stop the fan just moving the same air around it) , then an intercooler to cool the charge air if need be.
Propane is drafted / mixed in by volume into the air stream . So you must have an evap / shut off valve / tank , plus now a mixer ?? For what ? Less BTU than petrol / gas , but a longer flame front (less ping) ..
Still WHY ?
Diesels that have been converted from Diesel to a Gas LP or Methane run are normally stationary , and are used because of the compression ratios of diesel engine.
The pumping station under Lions Gate every LT is run on poop-gas to flush the tanks , diesels using your sewage ..
VT
This topic has been beaten to death over and over again, yet I never grow tired of watching the debate.
Ask Crushers and Dougal what they think, Ill get the popcorn
g
Ask Crushers and Dougal what they think, Ill get the popcorn
g
Im not debating .
Cooling charge air / internal Braton cycle temps ?
Or overheating coolant ?
As with using Propane for running , There ok for 2 of the Ranch units here , but a royal pain to say drive to portland USA , just try to get fuel.
The engines under Lions gate run quite fine , since the fuel is what there given for free, to pump away and deal with the solids.
Anywho 's , this is as much crap as the 24volt hassle , Wouldn't have one. or a Primus ,
VT.
Cooling charge air / internal Braton cycle temps ?
Or overheating coolant ?
As with using Propane for running , There ok for 2 of the Ranch units here , but a royal pain to say drive to portland USA , just try to get fuel.
The engines under Lions gate run quite fine , since the fuel is what there given for free, to pump away and deal with the solids.
Anywho 's , this is as much crap as the 24volt hassle , Wouldn't have one. or a Primus ,
VT.
I have a 1985 BJ70, I have installed water alcohol on the 3B and propane. I have since installed a 13BT into the rig and have left the water/alc and propane hooked up to it. The water alcohol is not worth the hassle the propane as an addition to the diesel is worth every penny. It produces as much kick in the pants as a turbo did for my 3B. The fuel milage went from 800km per tank to 875 km per tank, I use 2.3 gallons of propane for 18 gallons of diesel, my egts went down and the turbo boost kicks in sooner with higher boost. My daughter calls the rig zippy since the propane injection install.
The water alcohol does not do much for power or milage and the drop in egts was about 75 deg F. The real problem is my kit came with a 1 gallon tank and if you want to see a benefit you need to run alot of water / alc through the engine, the tank lasts for maybe 1 or 2 long pulls, I would need a 20 gallon tank to make it between fuel fills to make it work properly. On a BJ70 I have not found a place to install a larger tank.
My next adventure will be an intercooler I will let you know how that comes out, it will be next summers project.
Jim
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Can you propane inject an NA 2h? Any benefits?
crushers
post ho
there is no real benefit to a NA diesel
but
the PI on a turbo'd unit is kickin.
been there done that, used to sell the kits.
still running a kit on a PZ for how many years now?
planning on installing one on my gutless dodge.
but
the PI on a turbo'd unit is kickin.
been there done that, used to sell the kits.
still running a kit on a PZ for how many years now?
planning on installing one on my gutless dodge.
crushers
post ho
"increases fuel economy" = BS
"cleans up the smell and the black smoke" = BS
"increases power" = oh yah baby and this is the ONLY reason to install PI
"cleans up the smell and the black smoke" = BS
"increases power" = oh yah baby and this is the ONLY reason to install PI
Most of the information you'll find online is from manufacturers or vendors of such systems, hence most are heavily biased.
You can inject all sorts of fuels into a diesel through the intake, you can buy systems to inject alcohol, petrol and lpg/propane. They're all essentially the same in layout and workings.
They will all add power, but they will all cause those fuels to preignite (detonate) from the heat of compression before diesel is injected.
If you ignore the bad sides, the characteristic of these fuels preigniting in a diesel is a lot more power down low and very little up-top. They give a bigger increase in low end torque than in top end speed.
Whether you want to run one all depends on how disposable you consider your engine to be. If you don't mind a rebuild because you've gone too far, then by all means try it. But it's not a safe way to add power as the pressures inside the engine rise out of proportion with the extra power.
Because of the pre-ignition causing such a rapid pressure rise before TDC and the high rpm power increase being very small it can't be a record setting power adder. I've yet to see a propane fumigated diesel beat all solely diesel powered engines of the same type.
You can inject all sorts of fuels into a diesel through the intake, you can buy systems to inject alcohol, petrol and lpg/propane. They're all essentially the same in layout and workings.
They will all add power, but they will all cause those fuels to preignite (detonate) from the heat of compression before diesel is injected.
If you ignore the bad sides, the characteristic of these fuels preigniting in a diesel is a lot more power down low and very little up-top. They give a bigger increase in low end torque than in top end speed.
Whether you want to run one all depends on how disposable you consider your engine to be. If you don't mind a rebuild because you've gone too far, then by all means try it. But it's not a safe way to add power as the pressures inside the engine rise out of proportion with the extra power.
Because of the pre-ignition causing such a rapid pressure rise before TDC and the high rpm power increase being very small it can't be a record setting power adder. I've yet to see a propane fumigated diesel beat all solely diesel powered engines of the same type.
crushers
post ho
yah, but have you tried it yourself with a proper injection system?
or is it just book knowledge you are going by?
i know it works for power increase first hand and have yet to see first hand any engines that have died from the properly meetered addition of propane.
i will challenge you to provide a soley diesel based engine with the same results for the same $$$ investment as a PI unit useing the same engine base.
ANYTHING you do to a diesel will shorten its life span when you have an idiot at the wheel.
or is it just book knowledge you are going by?
i know it works for power increase first hand and have yet to see first hand any engines that have died from the properly meetered addition of propane.
i will challenge you to provide a soley diesel based engine with the same results for the same $$$ investment as a PI unit useing the same engine base.
ANYTHING you do to a diesel will shorten its life span when you have an idiot at the wheel.
No I haven't run a full system. My engine detonates loudly at idle with propane so I didn't want to go any further.
No dispute that it increases power, my point was the gain in low end torque is higher and the gain in internal pressure is out of proportion with the gain in power.
I don't know of any first hand engines that blow, but such systems are generally illegal in this country so that's no surprise. There are some pretty impressive engine failure pictures online.
Get a 4BD1T and see what a propane system will do. With the stock fuel pump you can roughly double the stock power output. From 100kw to around 200kw.
You need a turbo capable of over 30psi, but there are holsets that do that pretty cheap in the US.
What did you have in mind?
Certainly, but some methods are more detrimental than others. Any fuel through the intake on a diesel fits into that category.
crushers
post ho
humm, i like your response.
i agree, bottom end torque is not changed with a proper propane injection system.
if your engine was already knocking then either the system you were using was "dump" system or the propane quantity was too high.
since this is a Toyota diesel forum then lets use a Toyota diesel to build from.
you start, pick the engine and what you want to do to increase the hp and torque and cost of doing it. i will see if i can play along.
i agree, bottom end torque is not changed with a proper propane injection system.
if your engine was already knocking then either the system you were using was "dump" system or the propane quantity was too high.
since this is a Toyota diesel forum then lets use a Toyota diesel to build from.
you start, pick the engine and what you want to do to increase the hp and torque and cost of doing it. i will see if i can play along.
Your statement is incorrect, the fumigation of diesel engines with propane or other fuels has been studied for years, the available data on line goes back to the early 1900's when the diesel engine was developed. Your lack of understanding concerning the proper use of the technology does not negate the performance of the technology.
Here is one sample of many I found on the net, to avoid your misconception that "most information you'll find online is from manufacturers or vendors" I located this as a study done at a University as a project to test the systems and their use with test results.
What is Fumigation? A fumigation system injects a gaseous or liquid fuel into the intake air stream of a compression ignited engine. This fuel burns and becomes a part-contributor to the power producing fuel. While alcohol and gasoline may be used, gaseous fumigation seems to exhibit the best overall power yields, performance, and emissions benefits. LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas) or CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) is used. The fumigation process is divided into major fraction and minor fraction fumigation. When more than 50% gaseous injection is used, it is known as major fraction fumigation. Minor fraction fumigation is under 50% gaseous injection. One after-market fumigation component supplier, Algas Corporation, using 20 to 25% fumigation rate, reports excellent performance benefits and reduced target emissions. One test for a 1984 6.9 liter diesel engine in an F250 chassis showed a 64% reduction in NOx and 45.2% reduction of particulates. CO was almost unchanged. However, total emissions of hydrocarbons in grams per mile increased.
Graph courtesy of Algas Corporation, a Division of Precision General Inc.
History of Fumigation Rudolph Diesel's 1901 patent mentions the diesel fumigation process. Not until the 1940's were there any commercial fumigation applications. Cooper-Bessemer introduced large, big-bore, stationary engines which ran on 95% natural gas and 5% diesel. Since then other manufacturers have used fumigation to boost power output. Fumigation has been successfully used in agricultural machines for many years. To date, Texas and Colorado have accepted fumigation as an alternative fuel.
Benefits For nonstationary variable RPM engines, variable ratio fumigation is more effective than fixed rate fumigation. As a result, engine load and fumigation rates are matched. Reduced NOx and particulate emissions are the most outstanding benefits. Minor fraction fumigation yields significant (up to 25%) gains in smoke-limited torque gains. There are other technical non-pollution related gains. Tests show reduced exhaust temperature, reduced crankcase solids, reduced injection service and longer acceptable crankcase drains. Diesel exhaust odor is also reduced.
Your anecdotal evidence (Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of data.) proves a predisposition to believe the fumigation process does not function properly.
The misuse of any technology can damage an engine.
I look forward to your engine tests with Crushers. Let the games begin!
Jim
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Dougal has done test as to percentage propane/air mixtures and it is surprising how little it takes to cause obvious preignition. Do not dismiss his warnings too quickly. I will let him speak to that.
I am wondering how injection timing affects the propane peak cylinder pressure in IDI vs DI engines with PI. I am of the thought that a IDI engine would suffer less peak pressure cus they generally have a slower flame front propagation, and usually lower peak cylinder pressure... I think I read that on the intraweb somewhere.
If the propane was a low enough percentage to not pre ignite/auto ignite, and just went on the flame front, then maybe some ignition retarding could decrease the cylinder pressure and still yeald power with a good safety margin.
g
I am wondering how injection timing affects the propane peak cylinder pressure in IDI vs DI engines with PI. I am of the thought that a IDI engine would suffer less peak pressure cus they generally have a slower flame front propagation, and usually lower peak cylinder pressure... I think I read that on the intraweb somewhere.
If the propane was a low enough percentage to not pre ignite/auto ignite, and just went on the flame front, then maybe some ignition retarding could decrease the cylinder pressure and still yeald power with a good safety margin.
g
It would be kewl if we could actually get into some real stuff that comes to a greater understanding of what amounts work with certain engines and what tuning is a bennifit and not just see who can piss farthest into the wind.
Anyone know how to measure real time cylinder pressure with less than 10 grands worth of equipment?
g
Anyone know how to measure real time cylinder pressure with less than 10 grands worth of equipment?
g
Your statement is incorrect, the fumigation of diesel engines with propane or other fuels has been studied for years, the available data on line goes back to the early 1900's when the diesel engine was developed. Your lack of understanding concerning the proper use of the technology does not negate the performance of the technology.
Here is one sample of many I found on the net, to avoid your misconception that "most information you'll find online is from manufacturers or vendors" I located this as a study done at a University as a project to test the systems and their use with test results.
What is Fumigation? A fumigation system injects a gaseous or liquid fuel into the intake air stream of a compression ignited engine. This fuel burns and becomes a part-contributor to the power producing fuel. While alcohol and gasoline may be used, gaseous fumigation seems to exhibit the best overall power yields, performance, and emissions benefits. LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas) or CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) is used. The fumigation process is divided into major fraction and minor fraction fumigation. When more than 50% gaseous injection is used, it is known as major fraction fumigation. Minor fraction fumigation is under 50% gaseous injection. One after-market fumigation component supplier, Algas Corporation, using 20 to 25% fumigation rate, reports excellent performance benefits and reduced target emissions. One test for a 1984 6.9 liter diesel engine in an F250 chassis showed a 64% reduction in NOx and 45.2% reduction of particulates. CO was almost unchanged. However, total emissions of hydrocarbons in grams per mile increased.
Graph courtesy of Algas Corporation, a Division of Precision General Inc.
History of Fumigation Rudolph Diesel's 1901 patent mentions the diesel fumigation process. Not until the 1940's were there any commercial fumigation applications. Cooper-Bessemer introduced large, big-bore, stationary engines which ran on 95% natural gas and 5% diesel. Since then other manufacturers have used fumigation to boost power output. Fumigation has been successfully used in agricultural machines for many years. To date, Texas and Colorado have accepted fumigation as an alternative fuel.
Benefits For nonstationary variable RPM engines, variable ratio fumigation is more effective than fixed rate fumigation. As a result, engine load and fumigation rates are matched. Reduced NOx and particulate emissions are the most outstanding benefits. Minor fraction fumigation yields significant (up to 25%) gains in smoke-limited torque gains. There are other technical non-pollution related gains. Tests show reduced exhaust temperature, reduced crankcase solids, reduced injection service and longer acceptable crankcase drains. Diesel exhaust odor is also reduced.
Your anecdotal evidence (Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion which does not follow from it, usually by generalizing from an insufficient amount of data.) proves a predisposition to believe the fumigation process does not function properly.
The misuse of any technology can damage an engine.
I look forward to your engine tests with Crushers. Let the games begin!
Jim
Jim
That information you have posted does not include any testing, only regurgitation of a kit manufacturers claims.
Can you post a link to the source?
As Gerg has said, I've run my own tests and found detonation at levels of 0.4% by volume with LPG (a propane/butane mix).
There is only one situation where manufacturers allow gas fumigation, the qualifier is the gas must not form any condensate (liquid) at 250 bar.
LPG fails this test, the only gases that will pass is methane/CO2, i.e. natural gas.
MAN Diesel - Engine Programmes
If a gas passes the 250 bar test then it won't self-ignite in a diesel engine.
cruisedeisel
Toyota's for life
- Thread starter
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i want a kit
