propane injected turbo diesel

[jake2far]

Jim
That information you have posted does not include any testing, only regurgitation of a kit manufacturers claims.

Can you post a link to the source?

As Gerg has said, I've run my own tests and found detonation at levels of 0.4% by volume with LPG (a propane/butane mix).

There is only one situation where manufacturers allow gas fumigation, the qualifier is the gas must not form any condensate (liquid) at 250 bar.
LPG fails this test, the only gases that will pass is methane/CO2, i.e. natural gas.
MAN Diesel - Engine Programmes

If a gas passes the 250 bar test then it won't self-ignite in a diesel engine.

Try this, the gentleman has been in contact with me via email.
If you have doubts please contact him directly he has sent me several links to studies and companies that have done Fumigation.
Franz Hofmann, Alternative Fuels, Biography

Here is a direct quote from one of his emails.

"Practically any diesel can use propane fumigation, the trick is to limit the amount of propane used and have backup controls to prevent overfueling. There are many "companies" that sell basic regulators and venturi mixers that simply ingest fuel with no controls.

I am not impressed with some of these products but there are others that I think do a pretty good job. David Shea at Technocarb has a very nice setup: Home

There are a few others too, ACME Alternate Fuel Systems- PRODUCTS has a good following. At one time, SuperChips had what I thought was one of the best, Superchips DPI Digital Propane Injection Fuel System but I havent kept track of them for several years now.

If you noticed a trend, its these systems have a fairly strong compliment of electronic control, I dont think there is a place for a strict mechanical system.

Hope this helps some;

Franz"


Your claim of testing propane fumigation fails to supply the very test data you ask me to provide. Something about wrestling with pigs comes to mind.

For fun I have included this link it's from India.

http://indjst.org/archive/vol.3.issue.3/mar10amar-4.pdf


I have found many sources to prove out this technology, it is pointless to try and convince you with source, data, facts, anecdotal evidence, or for that matter just plain common sense, in your world your facts are the only facts.

I have not sent you more links nor will I, there are so many on this subject available if you really wanted to know you would have already found them(I found studies from 7 different State Universities, 4 different countries and at least 12 different State run projects), since you choose not to do the research and demand I provide the proof and assert if I can't than I must be wrong (back to the pig thing) find it for yourself.

The person I referenced in my link Franz Hoffman should provide proper certification that this technology is proven if he can't I know I can't.

Now when are you going to take up Crushers challenge?

Oh well one more attempt.

Here is one on CNG, I know you will claim it's not propane but if you bother to read it there is a surprise, good luck.
http://wvuscholar.wvu.edu:8881//exlibris/dtl/d3_1/apache_media/20636.pdf

I have run several engines on propane fumigation, you stated you tested an Isuzu engine at idle and it knocked so you discontinued the use, if you study the concept of propane fumigation you will discover it isn't at its best at low loads, but you already knew that.

Jim

 

[Dougal]

Try this, the gentleman has been in contact with me via email.
If you have doubts please contact him directly he has sent me several links to studies and companies that have done Fumigation.
Franz Hofmann, Alternative Fuels, Biography

Here is a direct quote from one of his emails.

"Practically any diesel can use propane fumigation, the trick is to limit the amount of propane used and have backup controls to prevent overfueling. There are many "companies" that sell basic regulators and venturi mixers that simply ingest fuel with no controls.

I am not impressed with some of these products but there are others that I think do a pretty good job. David Shea at Technocarb has a very nice setup: Home

Yes I'm aware of Franz and his work. He has provided some great examples online of fumigation gone wrong.

The question remains, what is a "safe" dosage. I found detonation with 0.4% fumigation on a cold engine with no boost and around 18:1 compression.

Your claim of testing propane fumigation fails to supply the very test data you ask me to provide. Something about wrestling with pigs comes to mind.

Specifically, what do you want to know?

For fun I have included this link it's from India.

http://indjst.org/archive/vol.3.issue.3/mar10amar-4.pdf

Did you notice this snippet from the Indian research paper?
"At higher loads, dual-fuel operation has resulted in undue vibrations"

I have found many sources to prove out this technology, it is pointless to try and convince you with source, data, facts, anecdotal evidence, or for that matter just plain common sense, in your world your facts are the only facts.

I have not sent you more links nor will I, there are so many on this subject available if you really wanted to know you would have already found them(I found studies from 7 different State Universities, 4 different countries and at least 12 different State run projects), since you choose not to do the research and demand I provide the proof and assert if I can't than I must be wrong (back to the pig thing) find it for yourself.

The person I referenced in my link Franz Hoffman should provide proper certification that this technology is proven if he can't I know I can't.

Now when are you going to take up Crushers challenge?

I have done plenty of research on this topic, other engineers have too and we share results. I am honestly interested in any links you can provide.

Regarding crushers challenge. It's already been done by others with the 4BD1T.
There's a sandrail in the US running a 4Bd1T with 30psi and a maxed out fuel pump with raised rev limit. 200kw is what you get.
Another Isuzu 4BD1T has been pushed well over 500hp (fuelling increased from 70cc/1000 shots to over 370cc/1000 shots and boost to around 80psi).

Both running diesel only. It's propanes turn now.

There was one guy in aussie who was running lpg fumigation on a non turbo 4BD1 and taking a lot of measurements which he wouldn't tell anyone specifics about.
Interestingly he kept turning down the LPG rate to the point where he was producing no more power than diesel alone, then removed the kit entirely.
He wasn't helpful enough to explain why or what any of his readings were.

Oh well one more attempt.

Here is one on CNG, I know you will claim it's not propane but if you bother to read it there is a surprise, good luck.
http://wvuscholar.wvu.edu:8881//exlibris/dtl/d3_1/apache_media/20636.pdf

I have run several engines on propane fumigation, you stated you tested an Isuzu engine at idle and it knocked so you discontinued the use, if you study the concept of propane fumigation you will discover it isn't at its best at low loads, but you already knew that.

Jim

Yes I know there's no practical reason to fumigate at idle. But the point of the experiment was to show what can happen. It raises a few very good questions. Particularly, "if it happens to a cold engine at idle, when would it not happen and what dosage rate is safe"

I'm still reading through that CNG paper, what si the surprise?

 

[crushers]

hummm,
the kit i used to sell used boost as the means to injection propane, very simple, no electronics other than a safety shut off switch, very safe and controlled feed.
you preset when you wanted the propane to be injected by the boost screw. since i used propane for power only i preset the injection for 10 psi since i had ample power below that for highway and back road travel. at 10 psi 1 cfm of propane was injected, as the boost increased (i was set for max of 16 psi) so did the volume of propane to a max of 3 cfm. there was no detonation, pinging, knock or other issues. that motor is now in the third truck and still running tight. i have abused this engine off road so if there was an issue then it would have shown up sometime in the last 4 years.

the problem is the mind set that if a little is good then a lot is better. some people just have to push the limits and when the engine goes POOF they blame the injection instead of their right foot and their small mind. you can have the same result if you increase the boost AND the fuel on any diesel, too much heat and your engine will blow.

common sense must be used in every situation.

as for Dougal's engine, if he is fearful to try a proper kit then that is his right. modifications are not for everyone but for some of us it is the hands on experience that is the joy in life, for others it is the research and book knowledge. we need both in this world.

too bad Dougal didn't want to play Toyota.

for example, if you take a HDT and want to increase the hp 20-40% what do you need to do to the engine to achieve it?

 

[gerg]

Was your system a venturi system crushers? How did you assess the detonation? As far as I know you can only "hear" the PI detonating when it is at its worst. PI can be pre igniting and be inaudible.

What method did you use to adjust it?
For example: did you tune it to a specific volume then cut it by half or just turn it down until the noise was not able to be heard? Do you happen to have the air /fuel ratio?

Im curious because propane is not able to burn below 2 % I believe, I could be wrong on that, so I always thought that the more air you put in, the greater margin of safety you gain with propane for the same HP. I think that makes sense especially with NA have not much luck with this stuff.

I have read alot of "success" stories but their method of tuning is left out or the tune by ear thing makes me quite uneasy. Im very interested , but ive put too much time into my motor to buy a kit and trash it just to have the kit maker say I didnt "tune" it properly. Numbers carry alot more weight than opinions to me.

g

 

[crushers]

the company did the numbers with the safety margins preset at time of delivery.
i told them what i wanted and they set the boost, the cfm being delivered at the boost with the max being set.
i never did screw with their settings.

you play the game the way you want and what makes you feel comfortable on paper.

i have no issue with that.

but, at the same time, don't be critical of how i test mine. i know my systems work safely from experience.

 

[gerg]

I apologize, I was not critical of you wayne. Im sorry I did that thing that made you angry. I grow weary of seeing set ups that look sophisticated enough to accurately meter a safe ratio of propane to air, just to see their tuning techniques be even more backyard than im comfortable with... and thats saying alot.

BTW, I always do a bit of mathing on paper and usually build scale models out of silly puddy before I put anything on my truck.

What company was it from?
Did they have a warranty?
Did you tell them what motor you had and they figured out what was a safe flow?
Did they provide any details about their adjustments, as in "this is our calculation of your engines air flow at your desired boost and the propane is flowing x amount and is well within accepted ratios.... enjoy our system...thank you for flying west jet...bla bla bla"

I guess what I am looking for is a safe value that my motor can handle without risking damage, then test a system with those values. And yes I know everthing has risk. There is normal risk, then there is taking a dump in the stall next to George Michael. The latter being unacceptable for me.
g

 

[crushers]

basicaly the conversation went something like this:
3.5L turbo diesel running max boost of 16 psi, i want the propane to kick in at 10 psi so it isn't running unless i need it.
or
2.4L turbo blah blah.

they would do the calculations and send me what worked. what i liked about the kit was the flow was related to the turbo pressure.

the warranty was for the function of the unit since peeps love to tinker with stuff.

the Ma and Pa company was bought out about 3 years ago at which time i stopped purchasing the units.

 

[gerg]

So I saw that you said there was 3 settings in 1cfm increments. What rpm and boost was each increment to try and get an idea of the air / propane ratio?
g

 

[Dougal]

Im curious because propane is not able to burn below 2 % I believe, I could be wrong on that, so I always thought that the more air you put in, the greater margin of safety you gain with propane for the same HP. I think that makes sense especially with NA have not much luck with this stuff.

The 2% lower explosive limit is in air at standard pressure and temperature (sealevel on a warm day).
It appears to not be relevant to air that's compressed to self-ignite in an engine as my video was on only 0.4%, which is 1/5th of the lower explosive limit.

 

[gerg]

Hmm that is interesting. I could be out but it would seem that crushers set up at 3cfm at 2500rpm and 10lbs of boost would be ingesting 1.5% or so propane.... give or take.
g

 

[crushers]

boost is not related to rpm but is related to load on the engine. you can have 10 psi at 2500 pulling a load up a hill or at 4000 rpm on the highway bucking a head wind.

not sure but it seemed to be 1 cfm at 10 psi and 3 cfm at 16 psi ...

 

[Dougal]

Hmm that is interesting. I could be out but it would seem that crushers set up at 3cfm at 2500rpm and 10lbs of boost would be ingesting 1.5% or so propane.... give or take.
g

I did the maths on Crushers setup a long time ago in another thread, but I still have the spreadsheet.
This is a 3B at 3cfm (85 litres/min), it's equivalent energy wise to 185 cc/min of diesel.

A 3B at 2500rpm and 10psi, 80% VE is around 4,590 litres/min. That gives propane to be 1.9% of air volume.
Almost 5 times the rate I was using in that video.

 

[gerg]

Im sorry crushers I always assume a given boost is maxing out the engines HP at that rpm. Like WOT pulling a hill and not accelerating etc...

So is there a way to detect detonation while driving down the road with engine noise and all that? I have considered combining a stethoscope with a microphone and recording the engine noise with my laptop to try and run it on a program to see changes in the frequency of the engine noise with the propane injected... erm if that makes sence.
g

 

[crushers]

which tells me there is more to your issue than just the propane injection.
if you figures are correct, and i am not saying they aren't, then i should have blown up that PZ and the HZ and the 2LT many times over...

 

[crushers]

Gerg, that would be an interesting test ...

 

[Dougal]

which tells me there is more to your issue than just the propane injection.
if you figures are correct, and i am not saying they aren't, then i should have blown up that PZ and the HZ and the 2LT many times over...

Detonation from fumigation won't cause immediate catastrophic failure unless you're really over-cooking it.
I've read about a landrover owner who lost significant compression after installing, then removing a fumigation kit. I'd like to know what rates he was running to get an idea of the rates required to damage engines.

Otherwise, those who sample oil have reported higher metal counts using fumigation, metal counts which dropped right back when fumigation was no longer used.

 

[crushers]

interesting, compression change, rings, valves, gasket?? it would be enlightening to know what was the result of the compression drop.

there must be a lot of stress on engine parts with the fumigation to cause metal loss which leads me to ask how much propane was those individuals injecting?

you have to remember, people that are injecting propane are looking for power and not longevity. if they were looking for longevity they would buy a powersmoke to tow with.

 

[Dougal]

interesting, compression change, rings, valves, gasket?? it would be enlightening to know what was the result of the compression drop.

there must be a lot of stress on engine parts with the fumigation to cause metal loss which leads me to ask how much propane was those individuals injecting?

Yes, all good questions which would be great to find answers to.

you have to remember, people that are injecting propane are looking for power and not longevity. if they were looking for longevity they would buy a powersmoke to tow with.

Take a look at the CNG dual fuel paper that Jake2far linked up. It's on a 7.3L power stroke, they have all test results for diesel only as well as diesel/cng.
It makes 34% efficiency, which is very respectable.

 

[crushers]

i think you misunderstood what i was trying to say about the powersmoke ...
instead of adding propane to a small diesel to do the work of a big diesel, if the owner wanted reliability they would upgrade their tow vehicle to a stock 7.3L.

the reason most people use PI is because the like to hop up their vehicles. i don't use my PI vehicles for towing or work, i use them for play time ... MORE POWER.

 

[Dougal]

i think you misunderstood what i was trying to say about the powersmoke ...
instead of adding propane to a small diesel to do the work of a big diesel, if the owner wanted reliability they would upgrade their tow vehicle to a stock 7.3L.

No, I understood you and I agree. I thought you might be interested in some research on that engine.

the reason most people use PI is because the like to hop up their vehicles. i don't use my PI vehicles for towing or work, i use them for play time ... MORE POWER.

Have you seen the guys now using petrol injection?