Rightfully so, i would add. The Prado 250 1958 is a mid$40s car if that much.
Price Negotiation
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As someone who was/still slightly is interested in these, I've spent a good amount of time reading about them on the Landcruiser forum and the GX forum, and of course here.
Where I'm located the GX seem to outnumber the LC by 4/1. Granted, every GX is driven by a middle aged women or AARP member. An older Asian man in a LC gave my hundy a thumbs up though! (I returned the favor)
It seems the 1958's are the ones no one really wants, at least at sticker. During black friday there was a dealer with $8k off on the 1958's, I think they had 8 or so.
I actually like the 1958 as I'm a fan of stripper models, but with an MSRP of 58k, even with 8 off I just don't see 50k of value.
I know a lot has changed since covid, but in June of 2020 I paid $45k for a brand new XL F250, with the STX and FX4 packages, 7.3, crew cab, 4x4, locking rear diff, power everything, plow prep package, dual alt's, etc...
In no way, shape, or form, five years later, can I justify $58k, or even $50k, for a "prado" (in what I consider is a great looking body) with a buzzy 4pot, with an interior equal to my stripper 3/4 ton truck. Sure you could argue that the Toyota build quality alone makes up for it, but from what I've read and seen it person, it really doesn't.
Maybe in a few years I'll pick up a nice fresh off lease GX. That's probably the most value oriented option if you want a 250.
Where I'm located the GX seem to outnumber the LC by 4/1. Granted, every GX is driven by a middle aged women or AARP member. An older Asian man in a LC gave my hundy a thumbs up though! (I returned the favor)
It seems the 1958's are the ones no one really wants, at least at sticker. During black friday there was a dealer with $8k off on the 1958's, I think they had 8 or so.
I actually like the 1958 as I'm a fan of stripper models, but with an MSRP of 58k, even with 8 off I just don't see 50k of value.
I know a lot has changed since covid, but in June of 2020 I paid $45k for a brand new XL F250, with the STX and FX4 packages, 7.3, crew cab, 4x4, locking rear diff, power everything, plow prep package, dual alt's, etc...
In no way, shape, or form, five years later, can I justify $58k, or even $50k, for a "prado" (in what I consider is a great looking body) with a buzzy 4pot, with an interior equal to my stripper 3/4 ton truck. Sure you could argue that the Toyota build quality alone makes up for it, but from what I've read and seen it person, it really doesn't.
Maybe in a few years I'll pick up a nice fresh off lease GX. That's probably the most value oriented option if you want a 250.
joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
I’m guessing you haven’t been car shopping lately? I’m not saying the prices are justified, but EVERY car and truck seems to be priced ridiculously these days. Have you priced out a Bronco or Jeep lately? I am leasing, so am less concerned about total price paid, as it is 100% tax write-off for my business. If I were paying cash out of my pocket, I would be grinding pretty hard no matter what I was buying.
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$45k in 2017 is the equivalent of $58k in 2024.
A 2017 base GX cost $52k new, but in 2024 would cost $66k.
$58k with a few grand off for a 1958 is $11k lower than an inflationary adjusted GX (cause we’re comparing Prado to Prado
).I think people will look back in 10-15 years and realize it’s a pretty good value when you account for today’s dollar value. And of course, if everything goes to hell in a hand basket, then hopefully you put a lift on it and can run away from the apocalypse
.
$45k in 2017 is the equivalent of $58k in 2024.
A 2017 base GX cost $52k new, but in 2024 would cost $66k.
$58k with a few grand off for a 1958 is $11k lower than an inflationary adjusted GX (cause we’re comparing Prado to Prado
I think people will look back in 10-15 years and realize it’s a pretty good value when you account for today’s dollar value. And of course, if everything goes to hell in a hand basket, then hopefully you put a lift on it and can run away from the apocalypse
Thanks for the sanity.
joseywales
Renaissance Redneck
$45k in 2017 is the equivalent of $58k in 2024.
I think people will look back in 10-15 years and realize it’s a pretty good value when you account for today’s dollar value. And of course, if everything goes to hell in a hand basket, then hopefully you put a lift on it and can run away from the apocalypse
Exactly.
In 2014 I bought a Ram 3500 Cummins for my business and it cost $700/month CAD. I was charging $65/hr for my guys. Today, the 1958 is $1,100 (that’s $400 to $750 USD) and my guys are now charging out at $155/hr. I feel like I’m winning, but it’s still a lot of money for anything. It’s just the world we live in.
I’m going to bolt on the 275/70 Toyo RT Trails from my Sequoia (which will now get 35s
) and probably do the basic 2” Rough Country lift (hey, it’s a lease!) and call it a day. In my eyes, the 1958 is just what they styled it to look like… a modern 60 series! My 84 BJ60 was my favorite vehicle ever (I’ve had well over 50 vehicles) and I see so many parallels. The hybrid 4cyl is the modern day version of the 3B with the exception of 2UZ horsepower instead of VW van horsepower. I’m very excited to get my hands on my 1958.I hear and respect you, but don't agree.$45k in 2017 is the equivalent of $58k in 2024.
A 2017 base GX cost $52k new, but in 2024 would cost $66k.
$58k with a few grand off for a 1958 is $11k lower than an inflationary adjusted GX (cause we’re comparing Prado to Prado
I think people will look back in 10-15 years and realize it’s a pretty good value when you account for today’s dollar value. And of course, if everything goes to hell in a hand basket, then hopefully you put a lift on it and can run away from the apocalypse
I am talking 2024's $45k, not 2017's. Not sure how you reach these numbers, but following a similar logic, I assume 2024's $45k would equate to maybe $35k in 2017. Back then you could buy an entry level 4Runner SR5 Premium (which is the right Prado comparison
) for the $35ks, maybe even less. With the 2017's $45k - that equates to 2024's $58k and you say is fair game for a stripped Prado 1958 - you could buy a "top dog" 4Runner TRDPRO or even a Limited with all bells and whistles and spare some change.I get the inflation argument and all, but, at a minimum, the auto-makers should keep the same level for the cars to charge equivalent/adjusted prices. Your argument is music to their ears and reason for these surreal prices. The value is simply not there because they strip down the cars and we keep getting hosed left and right and are now discussing $100k cars as the new normal. If these Prado 1958s keep rotting in the lots, the dealers will have no choice but slash prices back to reality with discounts and Toyota will take note of that. Tacomas and Tundras are in the same boat.
$45K will get you a very nice, low-mileage GX460, that will be on a flatter part of the depreciation curve. $13K is a lot of mods - F/R lockers, a lift, maybe some armor. I certainly understand buying new for the warranty etc. as well as usually better financing than used cars (where rates can be 2X as high), but form an overall cost perspective, it's certainly a better value to get a used GX.
I appreciate the respectable convo : )
I guess that SR5 would have been 2WD though probably, and it wouldn’t have had the other technology, Safety Assists, etc that are now in these vehicles. Plus you’re getting a hybrid motor that gets way better gas mileage.
So I guess the real point you’re making is the value you seek isn’t available and has been replaced with other things that have value and a real cost.
The adaptive cruise and steering assist is a game changer in my mind along with the hybrid motor. So there’s a lot of other things I value and feel are justified for the price.
But I do think it’s a tad too high. $3-5k off MSRP is pretty awesome IMO.
Back then you could buy an entry level 4Runner SR5 Premium (which is the right Prado comparison
I guess that SR5 would have been 2WD though probably, and it wouldn’t have had the other technology, Safety Assists, etc that are now in these vehicles. Plus you’re getting a hybrid motor that gets way better gas mileage.
So I guess the real point you’re making is the value you seek isn’t available and has been replaced with other things that have value and a real cost.
The adaptive cruise and steering assist is a game changer in my mind along with the hybrid motor. So there’s a lot of other things I value and feel are justified for the price.
But I do think it’s a tad too high. $3-5k off MSRP is pretty awesome IMO.
This is an interesting thread. What I am seeing is the average buyer, these are the majority of Americans that make about $70k per household. They cannot or do not what to afford a car/truck that costs a year of salary. Now if you are in the top 20% (130K+), it is more palatable to drop a half a years income on a car/truck. The count of house holds above 20% is about 26 million. To put that in perspective, the Los Angeles basin has a population of 18 million.
There is an affordability problem now that interest rates are almost back to normal. My experience in the PNW, the city kids don't want to drive. They love the Uber/Lyft app and the convenience of having someone else drive them. It is only the boomers, X'ers and maybe some Millennials that are car crazy that want these 'unique' cars and trucks. It is a very small percentage and if you look at the amount of Bronco's, Jeep's and LC-250 sold, there might not be any buyers left.
I agree, $58k for basic, albeit cool truck is expensive based on the value proprosition. $50K, I might consider, that would have to be the OTD. We don't have sales tax.
Oh yeah, I do not want a sunroof and want sway-bar disco and the driver seat with thigh extender (long legs). I can careless about fake leather seating. I have owned a Tacoma (1st gen 4 door) in the past and sold if after a few years because the seat was ruining my knees. The 05 Jeep TJL was most comfortable.
My 2 cents.
There is an affordability problem now that interest rates are almost back to normal. My experience in the PNW, the city kids don't want to drive. They love the Uber/Lyft app and the convenience of having someone else drive them. It is only the boomers, X'ers and maybe some Millennials that are car crazy that want these 'unique' cars and trucks. It is a very small percentage and if you look at the amount of Bronco's, Jeep's and LC-250 sold, there might not be any buyers left.
I agree, $58k for basic, albeit cool truck is expensive based on the value proprosition. $50K, I might consider, that would have to be the OTD. We don't have sales tax.
Oh yeah, I do not want a sunroof and want sway-bar disco and the driver seat with thigh extender (long legs). I can careless about fake leather seating. I have owned a Tacoma (1st gen 4 door) in the past and sold if after a few years because the seat was ruining my knees. The 05 Jeep TJL was most comfortable.
My 2 cents.
This.
This isn't an affordability problem. It's a market demand problem. The best "value" on a vehicle is usually the base model (this is where the manufacturer's margin is the lowest).
But what many folks want are the upgrades found on the higher trims. And I'm not talking about the sway bar disconnect or MTS. So they will justify and pay the higher price to get these upgrades, even though it's a markedly worse bang for their buck to do so.
Once again Toyota was right. The stereotypical "I want a base bare bones LC" customer has either already bought their 1958 and are probably happy with it, or they are still dreaming, and/or making up excuses for why the 1958 missed the mark. "If only it had a manual transmission..."
All automakers have marketing/sales/data teams. They know what sells and they know what doesn't. They know what trims make them money, and which don't. As the a corporations whose task is to make money, that is what they are going to do. Making something to placate a small subset of the market will never make sense for them - it's a lost-value proposition relative to investing the time/money in another higher-margin market - unless it's something they just decide to do for the fun of it (which the did keep the 200 around until 2021).
I meant that Toyota was right in not offering the bare bones stripper versions here. The 1958 is the closest Toyota was going to get to doing that. And if 1958 are sitting while the higher trims aren't, well that tells you most of what you need to know about the market. Would be nice to see actual sales figures broken out by trim.
Ocho77
SILVER Star
Who isn't?!
Nope. That 2017 SR5 Premium was 4x4.
All these safety tech, adaptive cruise, steering assist are common ground these days from corollas to RAV4s. The cost for those dropped astronomically when compared to 2017, when these were only in the super-high-end premium models. I would even wager that for Toyota it would be more expensive to build a car without those items these days, due to the assembly lines and integration between several models.
My point is that these "other things" - tech stuff value do not justify the unreal bump in price combined with slashing basic things (at least in a $58k car) like electric seats, soft touch points, sunroof and softex/faux leather, if not the real-deal-leather like in a 2017 4Runner Limited.
To sum up, IMO for $58k, the Prado 1958 should have all the new safety-tech-nannies plus the quality and amenities that were available in a 2017 4Runner Limited or TRD PRO.
Oh, and do not even get me started on the engine. For some, the 4 banger is an insult. I am not there yet though.
I’m pretty sure the 4Runner did not get Toyota’s updated safety suite (safety sense) which has adaptive cruise and a handful of other things until 2020. They also added CarPlay/AA that year. Then finally in 2022 they added BSM, RCTA, and 360 camera options.Nope. That 2017 SR5 Premium was 4x4.
All these safety tech, adaptive cruise, steering assist are common ground these days from corollas to RAV4s. The cost for those dropped astronomically when compared to 2017, when these were only in the super-high-end premium models. I would even wager that for Toyota it would be more expensive to build a car without those items these days, due to the assembly lines and integration between several models.
My point is that these "other things" - tech stuff value do not justify the unreal bump in price combined with slashing basic things (at least in a $58k car) like electric seats, soft touch points, sunroof and softex/faux leather, if not the real-deal-leather like in a 2017 4Runner Limited.
To sum up, IMO for $58k, the Prado 1958 should have all the new safety-tech-nannies plus the quality and amenities that were available in a 2017 4Runner Limited or TRD PRO.
Oh, and do not even get me started on the engine. For some, the 4 banger is an insult. I am not there yet though.
Toyota, as usual brings up the rear on vehicle tech.
That being said, to further reinforce your point in spring of ‘21 I bought a brand new TRD Pro 4R for just over $50k and could have got a fully optioned TRD Off Road Premium which is the next peg down for $42k. During this time Ford, GM, and others were well on their way to playing games with mark ups and the used market was turned upside down. I just reckon Toyota hadn’t caught on yet, and I also got really lucky with my timing.
That is certainly a good deal. Our Highlander Hybrid was $50K at the end of 2022 - it's the Bronze Edition trim, which is about the same as the Limited. The Highlander is optioned quite a bit better than the 1958 edition LC. To be honest, I don't see the vehicles being drastically different in cost to produce - not a huge difference in size. Perhaps the 250 is a bit more complex as it has more steel and more steps due to being BOF. But the Highlander is better equipped overall.
I am sure Toyota would still make money with these in the $50K mark. They are just charging what they think the market is willing to pay, and attempting to cashing in on the high margins. The best way to combat that is to just not buy them and not overpay, which will hopefully signal that they are charging over-market.
In 2017 or so, I recall thinking about getting a Tacoma but nixing the idea when one optioned how I wanted would have been over $40K for MSRP. I thought that was too much to pay for a compact truck with a tiny 3.5 V6 in it.
Well said. Enough has been said about this, so I won't beat a dead horse
, but the result is Toyota (smartly) cashing-in a double whammy by riding the "allure" of the Land Cruiser name on a stripped-down-cheaper-to-produce-light-duty version of it and charging inflated prices for it. As you said, so long as people buy into their fairy tale "oh it is a Land Cruiser, so $58k is a bargain for this stripped-down manual cloth seats industrial grade vehicle, Mr. T is happy.Don't get me wrong, to each their own, the proposition and design of the vehicle are great, and I understand the appeal. Give me one at $10k off MSRP and I will consider (for my wife
). Although I suspect not even her, that cares zero about cars, will like it when compared to her 4Runner PRO exhaust that makes vroom vroom 
.
Since we are comparing to Ford, even the barest-bones Bronco Badlands, 2 door model, has a $40K MSRP. Pretty sad state of affairs for new vehicle purchases, although these probably are selling for below MSRP.
Toyotas will probably always cost more than a Ford, so to come close to that $40K mark and cut $18K out of the price it'd probably be a legit rubber-floormat stripper - that might be attractive to fleet customers - especially in rural areas - and probably no one else.
Again, new Bronco stripper model - or lightly-used, low-mileage GX460 for the same money. I know what I would pick.
