Planning a trip up to Strawberry

[LandCruiserPhil]

Someone spent a lot of time marking hiking trails off the route I was on last week and the year before with nothing showing the trail was off limits to vehicle traffic from either direction. Again there was off shoot of the trail I was on marked no vehicle traffic. Why spend to mark off shoots if the trail was closed. Something does not sound right or maybe not the same trail.

 

[Living in the Past]

I tried opening the travel map using my computer wiht no luck. First click to zoom in I get a blank screen.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

I tried opening the travel map using my computer wiht no luck. First click to zoom in I get a blank screen.

The Coconino travel management map shows Forest Road 608 dead ending at the edge of a point on the rim

 

[Living in the Past]

The Coconino travel management map shows Forest Road 608 dead ending at the edge of a point on the rim

So are you saying the trail you been on and the one planned for this weekend is 608 and does in fact show it's now closed?

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

I stopped by the Tonto forest main office and they could not give a firm yes or no because they have not adopted and released the Tonto travel map yet . Sounds like more evaluation and gather a digital track of the trail we need a ruling on is in order. I will bring the track back to the main Tonto office and try to get a ruling the status.

 

[Living in the Past]

I was gathering stuff in the garage for my trip up north. Came across a April 15 2012 travel map (first version). It clearly shows 608 dead ending short of coming to the forest boundary. By the way the boundary runs it does look like a point. 607A does appear to run right to the edge of the boundary and looks like it could continue on. Other roads on the map do the same thing. My guess they do not show any continuation but guess it because it's the other National Forest which determines if the trail is open in their forest. So does the current map show 607A going to the edge of the forest?

 

[inkpot]

The Coconino travel management map shows Forest Road 608 dead ending at the edge of a point on the rim

Look at the 2015 issue map. It clearly ends way short of Coco border. The $10 paper/plastic map that Tonto has been selling for years shoes the 608 as a hiking trail.

 

[Living in the Past]

Corrected my post to show 607A not 608a which don't even a trail with number. That looks more like where wash might run off the rim creating a canyon which makes more sense where you would build a road.

 

[inkpot]

I stopped by the Tonto forest main office and they could not give a firm yes or no because they have not adopted and released the Tonto travel map yet . Sounds like more evaluation and gather a digital track of the trail we need a ruling on is in order. I will bring the track back to the main Tonto office and try to get a ruling the status.

The 608 road in Tonto has been closed since 2001 by direction of the Tonto Supervisor. That's the Top Dog. That overrides any Travel Management decision, past , present, and future. Also, ALL 4 of the possible choices in the currently pending Travel Management Plan list 608 as closed for all motorized travel.

Evaluation and Digital track have been presented & discussed with the Supervisor's Office, and it was recommended that reclassification effort be postponed until after Travel Management is signed into action as no decision can be made until then.

Interested parties could inquire with Debbie, the Payson District Ranger, as she has been involved in some of these discussions.

Any vandalism or removal of signage and barriers may possibly be due to some of the many locals that do not agree with Forest's current status for the 608. I can sympathize with them as it is an important trail.

Regardless of the 608 status, most of the really good overlook camp sites are no longer legal to camp in according to the 2015 map. That really sucks as I really like a couple of the really remote ones. I am pretty sure the LEO's in the Coco have copies of the map. It will be a whole different issue to get Coco to reclassify them as open. I would think the local businesses would be really upset about the potential loss of revenue as the loss of this camping scenery will likely affect visitor traffic

All we can do is keep talking to the Land Managers to get them to change their minds.

 

[crawlAZ]

Am I look at wrong 608 in Coconino or is map just wrong?

 

[Pitch]

Wonder if the route Pitch went up from the Dry Beaver Creek/ Bull Pen area up to the top of the rim is illegal as well.

That route which I took in April following the Mingus ROTM is indeed legal. It utilized the 214 road to climb the rim, and a series of connectors to get to Apache Maid Fire Tower, and eventually out to Stoneman Lake Rd. You could either exit on I-17 or Lake Mary Rd (FH 3). Lots of great camping up that way too! Route is Hwy 260 to FR 618 >214>230 (with numerous legal off shoots). It is a legal double track, passable by a stocker, but a good challenge. It is entirely in the Coco.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

The 608 road in Tonto has been closed since 2001 by direction of the Tonto Supervisor. That's the Top Dog. That overrides any Travel Management decision, past , present, and future. Also, ALL 4 of the possible choices in the currently pending Travel Management Plan list 608 as closed for all motorized travel.

Evaluation and Digital track have been presented & discussed with the Supervisor's Office, and it was recommended that reclassification effort be postponed until after Travel Management is signed into action as no decision can be made until then.

Interested parties could inquire with Debbie, the Payson District Ranger, as she has been involved in some of these discussions.

Any vandalism or removal of signage and barriers may possibly be due to some of the many locals that do not agree with Forest's current status for the 608. I can sympathize with them as it is an important trail.

Regardless of the 608 status, most of the really good overlook camp sites are no longer legal to camp in according to the 2015 map. That really sucks as I really like a couple of the really remote ones. I am pretty sure the LEO's in the Coco have copies of the map. It will be a whole different issue to get Coco to reclassify them as open. I would think the local businesses would be really upset about the potential loss of revenue as the loss of this camping scenery will likely affect visitor traffic

All we can do is keep talking to the Land Managers to get them to change their minds.

Im still not sure we were on the same trail, can you post your track/file?

 

[Saddletramp]

I recall the markers indicating 9381 and nothing marking the trail closed. There were several camp sites and in two cases small trailers that probably came in from the other end.

John, I know you and Kevin run mapping software on your runs. Do you have a track you were on? I was going off the paper maps bought two years ago by the Scouts.

We don't want to end up in a spot we shouldn't be and could use a bit of clarification.

 

[Saddletramp]

When in doubt go pull the Department of the Interior forest service federal government motor vehicle use map for 2015. I would think that the trails would be clearly marked but it doesn't mean someone didn't remove signs and trail markers but the hiking trails on each side of the road were very clearly marked as was the forest road I was on.

Here is what it shows: 608 is available to motor vehicles same as licensed for the road, pen to all vehicles. There is a restriction to camping within 300 ft of the edge of the trail.

708 on the other hand does show closed.

John can you confirm your track as being the same? Is it possible you are referring to 708?

 

[Living in the Past]

The 608 road in Tonto has been closed since 2001 by direction of the Tonto Supervisor. That's the Top Dog. That overrides any Travel Management decision, past , present, and future. Also, ALL 4 of the possible choices in the currently pending Travel Management Plan list 608 as closed for all motorized travel.

Any vandalism or removal of signage and barriers may possibly be due to some of the many locals that do not agree with Forest's current status for the 608. I can sympathize with them as it is an important trail.

So have I got this right a appointed official not elected is lord and master over the forest and gets to play god. It's no wonder people have no respect for the forest service. Just something wrong with a system where one person gets to make the rules for everybody with no recourse. I have always been one to follow the rules but the more crap I hear like this the harder that is to do.

Regardless of the 608 status, most of the really good overlook camp sites are no longer legal to camp in according to the 2015 map. That really sucks as I really like a couple of the really remote ones. I am pretty sure the LEO's in the Coco have copies of the map. It will be a whole different issue to get Coco to reclassify them as open. I would think the local businesses would be really upset about the potential loss of revenue as the loss of this camping scenery will likely affect visitor traffic

All we can do is keep talking to the Land Managers to get them to change their minds.

Problem is the closest business that is in the Coconino National Forest is more then ten miles north and guessing most campers in the area aren't coming from that direction. I think they are coming from the south on 87 or east out of Camp Verde. Besides the closest towns (Pine & Strawberry) not being in CNF they aren't even in Coconino county. This area has unique problems than TNF that has a office in the metro area doesn't have. They combined Happy Jack and Blue Ridge ranger districts years ago while downing sizing. Talking to locals there is only one forest service LEO in the district. They are others non LEO who are seasonal who can write tickets but talking to one they don't like the new travel plan any better then most forest users. My guess they would just tell you can't use a road or camp in that spot and ask you to move along. Hoping to get more involved in the area next year to find out first hand what's going on.

Closed in 2001 doesn't sound like anyone is listening at the FS. What needs to happen is a policy change that the rules reflect want the people want not one person.

That route which I took in April following the Mingus ROTM is indeed legal. It utilized the 214 road to climb the rim, and a series of connectors to get to Apache Maid Fire Tower, and eventually out to Stoneman Lake Rd. You could either exit on I-17 or Lake Mary Rd (FH 3). Lots of great camping up that way too! Route is Hwy 260 to FR 618 >214>230 (with numerous legal off shoots). It is a legal double track, passable by a stocker, but a good challenge. It is entirely in the Coco.

I wasn't accusing of travel illegally just the current policy is it on the user to have the map and follow it. In general no signage has been added or removed to reflect the new travel plan. Traveling on legal road it's common to come across side roads that aren't marked close but still has the number from the standard forest map. To be honest my time up north has been very limited lately and haven't had much time to see if this has changed.

 

[medtro]

Strawberry Grade. Been there; dun that, a few months ago.

Good news: it is a great easy trail with lots of historic value.

Bad news: this trail (also known as the 608 trail) was closed by executive order in 2001 . It was decommissioned into a hiking trail. T is closed in both the Tonto and the Coco.

More good news: there many locals who do not agree with this decision and they have ignored the closure. Rim Country 4 wheelers and TRAL ran this recently to evaluate the Trail and to create a digital record to be used for proposing reclassification as an open full sized motorized trail. This will be a long process as it involves 2 different Forests. Coco TM is done but Tonto is not. This trail status can't be changed until after Tonto gets it done. We really want this trail opened back up legally, but it will take a lot of time and effort.

More bad news: the Coco has just recently released a new 2015 map. It still shows the top portion of 608 as closed. It also indicates all legal dispersed camping areas, including details of which side of the road is open for camping. Many of the really neat overlooks are NOT indicated as open for camping. Have NO idea what the heck they are thing!! That's what everyone goes up there for is THE VIEWS!!!

The last of the news: the new 2015 Coco Forest map is not only available online, it is downloadable so you can put it on your phone, tablet, computer, GPS device and carry it along to navigate with.

LINK:

Coconino National Forest - Projects

Info found from the map provided from the above link doesn't support the info you posted on 608. Can you please clarify?

 

[Saddletramp]

I know the map picture is simple but this is the 2013 picture and a milepost number that was given to me by my sons scout leader. He was wanting to have a hiking trail for the boys from Camp Geronimo up to a camp site on the Rim.

 

[Saddletramp]

If it turns out to be a problem, no resolution by the meeting tonight, I will pick another trail. Camping up high still is in the cards for me, there are many of us who need the down time.


John, we very much appreciate you giving us this added information. Please post up any clarifying maps or details to assist us. I am glad that you and many of the TRAL gang are still following CSC.

 

[Tools R Us]

You're kidding right, do you really thing that John doesn't know what he is talking about? He likely is on a first name basis with more agency (Forest, parks, Game & Fish, BLM, etc) personal, than almost anyone in the OHV community. What he said is exactly correct: 608 was closed to motorized on Tonto, in 2001, by a supervisor order, for cultural resource protection. On Coco, 608 does not come all of the way to the rim edge. In other words, there is no legal, motorized connection between Strawberry and Pine off of 87 to 608 on Coco.

TRAL made a play for it, the case was well received, but Forest has other things on their plate, so it's tabled until after TM is passed. In this game you quickly learn that everything moves at the speed of government (in this case, hobbled by no budget, hugely under staffed, "speed") so, learn to pick your battles, prioritize to those that have a possibility of fruit. This is on the long list, will be addressed at the proper time.

I may have saved a GPS track, but likely not, most of the stuff that we do is GIS, works with Forest mapping. Does this help?

 

[Funner]

You're kidding right, do you really thing that John doesn't know what he is talking about? He likely is on a first name basis with more agency (Forest, parks, Game & Fish, BLM, etc) personal, than almost anyone in the OHV community. What he said is exactly correct: 608 was closed to motorized on Tonto, in 2001, by a supervisor order, for cultural resource protection. On Coco, 608 does not come all of the way to the rim edge. In other words, there is no legal, motorized connection between Strawberry and Pine off of 87 to 608 on Coco.

TRAL made a play for it, the case was well received, but Forest has other things on their plate, so it's tabled until after TM is passed. In this game you quickly learn that everything moves at the speed of government (in this case, hobbled by no budget, hugely under staffed, "speed") so, learn to pick your battles, prioritize to those that have a possibility of fruit. This is on the long list, will be addressed at the proper time.

I may have saved a GPS track, but likely not, most of the stuff that we do is GIS, works with Forest mapping. Does this help?

Thank you, Kevin. I don't think anyone was questioning John's knowledge just thinking he possibly had the trail number wrong because of all the seemingly conflicting info available.