Great topic of discussion for the meeting tonight, and as always would like TRALs input.
Planning a trip up to Strawberry
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Agreed, everyone appreciates the ground that has been made with the forest service through TRAL. I imagine speed of progress, conflicting info, etc can be frustrating. hopefully can share more info at the meet or on the board.
The Strawberry Grade trail has been the 608 trail for a long time, info backed up by current and historical maps, along with multiple conversations wit the Payson District Ranger and the Tonto Forest Supervisor, neither of whom are the enemy here. Forest Service route numbers do appear confusing on occasion, and TRAL has found a few errors that require fixing, but not in this case.
I just thought some folks might like a heads up before the trip as opposed to a surprise later. Remember the nightmare that LongDuck had with Az State Trust Land Dept a while back. Even if you don't agree with all of the Land Managers rules, it is probably a good idea to be aware of them. We have found it advantageous to work with them from the inside as opposed to argue with them from the outside, on order to increase Motorized Access on Federal Land.
Can you please post a map of this closed 608 trail? It would be nice to know if we are reading the wrong map or we are not talking about the same trail.
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Thank you for the input Kevin and John. We do not want to interrupt any of the great work being done by TRAL and the volunteers across the OHV community. I think my question and others is two fold, is the trail only closed from milepost 270 up to the right but once on the Rim itself the roads are open? Correct? Since we would start in the very corner of Tonto we would be accessing a road that is deemed closed by Tonto NF. If we moved higher up the rim the forest becomes Coconino and the we are all ok? It seems confusing because this is righ on the edge of two forests and they each have a different view of the road that connects them.
The mile post for turn off is 270, and when looking at the maps looks like it sits within Coconino National Forest. I called the Coconino main office, was transferred to the Mogollon Rim Ranger district and spoke to Amelia I asked specifically about the turn in off from highway 87 at milepost 270 on to FR 608. I was told that there are no closures on the Rim and yes 608 was open to vehicle traffic. Camping is restricted to within 300 feet of the FR and we are not to camp at the edge of the Rim.
Tonto National Forest could not determine if the road was closed, just as Phil stated but that doesn't give us the go ahead. To keep things more simple, I am likely to recommend accessing 608 once in Coconino and the follow some of the Rim trails. This should keep us out of this warning area and we still get to explore and camp.
The mile post for turn off is 270, and when looking at the maps looks like it sits within Coconino National Forest. I called the Coconino main office, was transferred to the Mogollon Rim Ranger district and spoke to Amelia I asked specifically about the turn in off from highway 87 at milepost 270 on to FR 608. I was told that there are no closures on the Rim and yes 608 was open to vehicle traffic. Camping is restricted to within 300 feet of the FR and we are not to camp at the edge of the Rim.
Tonto National Forest could not determine if the road was closed, just as Phil stated but that doesn't give us the go ahead. To keep things more simple, I am likely to recommend accessing 608 once in Coconino and the follow some of the Rim trails. This should keep us out of this warning area and we still get to explore and camp.
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The turn off in question is clearly inside Tonto, the second picture shows the green line of the forest boundary between Tonto and Coconino
It is Very obvious on the map pic that the 608 (yellow line on a green field) trail ends N E of Strawberry long before it reaches the black dotted/dashed line that indicates the borderline between Tonto and Coco. Not hard to understand that no yellow line means no trail. Looks just like this on my iPhone too. This is copied from the 15 April 2015 Coco MVUM and they also list NO updates for the 608. I wish there was!
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Not going to argue where it starts or ends. Question was is 608 closed in Coco. It is obvious to me it is NOT closed according to the Coco map, but your previous post said it is closed. If I understand you correctly, what you are saying now is 608 is NOT closed in Coco. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Any trail NOT shown is closed legally in theCoco. 608 is also legally closed in the Tonto. Regardless, the bottom line is that it is NOT currently legal to drive up the Strawberry Grade. I don't care who drives it or not as I am not in enforcement, but it is LEGALLY CLOSED!
According to the Travel Management Map for the Coconino NF published in April of this year, the 608 is open. It is NOT open all the way to the border with the Tonto.
In truth, reading these maps is hard. It often requires a more detailed map to cross reference with (one that shows other roads, hills/mountains/drainages/etc). Navigating with the black and white Travel Management maps is frustrating at best. Many if not most of the roads in the Coco NF (for those unfamiliar) that one encounters in the forest… signed or not, are actually closed. Nearly all of these lack any "Road Closed" signage. When it does exist it is simply a vertical sticker placed on the existing carsonite FR signs that says Road Closed. This is very easily missed. I would estimate that 30% of the roads that one encounters in the forest are actually legal, and of all the roads that are closed, only 30% are actually signed road closed. Legal travel on roads requires an accurate map… just because there are fresh tracks does not been it is open. Enforcement is few and far between, and ignorance (whether premeditated or not) to the closures and the program of closures at large is rampant.
In truth, reading these maps is hard. It often requires a more detailed map to cross reference with (one that shows other roads, hills/mountains/drainages/etc). Navigating with the black and white Travel Management maps is frustrating at best. Many if not most of the roads in the Coco NF (for those unfamiliar) that one encounters in the forest… signed or not, are actually closed. Nearly all of these lack any "Road Closed" signage. When it does exist it is simply a vertical sticker placed on the existing carsonite FR signs that says Road Closed. This is very easily missed. I would estimate that 30% of the roads that one encounters in the forest are actually legal, and of all the roads that are closed, only 30% are actually signed road closed. Legal travel on roads requires an accurate map… just because there are fresh tracks does not been it is open. Enforcement is few and far between, and ignorance (whether premeditated or not) to the closures and the program of closures at large is rampant.
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I don't know how to explain it any better? In Coco, the MVUM (linked above) is the word, can be downloaded to your device and navigated on. On Tonto, the latest version of the visitor map is it, TM isn't done, so no MVUM, yet. If you are following those maps, and any signage that says closed for whatever reason, you are good.
Directional, informative signing is way behind in most places. Just because there is a marker with a trail number, doesn't mean it is an open, legal OHV trail. For Tonto, just the signing budget for TM implementation is in the millions of $ and they don't have it, without help it isn't going to get done.
If you travel in Tonto, are likely spoiled by a relatively high level of directional signage, almost none of these are done by Forest. Each one of the standard trail markers that you see are ~$25 in hard cost, for materials only, often purchased by TRAL. Thousands have been installed, the projected for full TM implantation is in the 10s of thousands. This is a huge financial challenge, luckily Gary, the owner of Rock Art is a TRAL member, gives us a great deal, donates some (like the TRAL stickers), but still. This is the cheap part, the big signs can run as much as $7000.
Almost all of them are installed by TRAL and associated organizations, AZ Crawlers, Rim Country, Copperstate 4 Wheelers, AZ 4x4, etc. Volunteering their time, fuel, tire wear, etc.
Directional, informative signing is way behind in most places. Just because there is a marker with a trail number, doesn't mean it is an open, legal OHV trail. For Tonto, just the signing budget for TM implementation is in the millions of $ and they don't have it, without help it isn't going to get done.
If you travel in Tonto, are likely spoiled by a relatively high level of directional signage, almost none of these are done by Forest. Each one of the standard trail markers that you see are ~$25 in hard cost, for materials only, often purchased by TRAL. Thousands have been installed, the projected for full TM implantation is in the 10s of thousands. This is a huge financial challenge, luckily Gary, the owner of Rock Art is a TRAL member, gives us a great deal, donates some (like the TRAL stickers), but still. This is the cheap part, the big signs can run as much as $7000.
Almost all of them are installed by TRAL and associated organizations, AZ Crawlers, Rim Country, Copperstate 4 Wheelers, AZ 4x4, etc. Volunteering their time, fuel, tire wear, etc.
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Scream at the darkness all you want, don't see how it will do any good? Someone has to manage it or there would be nothing. They do listen, the problem is, there are so many voices, lots of stakeholders who have very differing views.
The first thing that you have to realize is, the country is too broke to fund Forest at anything close to a reasonable level to have a Forest, the emperor has no clothes. At last report the Mesa district had 12 employees, (old data, they added two more for the season, paid for by a grant) look at a map, how would you get anything done in that huge area, with as much traffic as it sees? They are almost always in the office, dealing with paperwork, Resolution Copper, TM, writing grant proposals, etc. If you follow TRAL, will see that we often have teams in Young,,, why? It's a cool place, they supply us lodging, have a very nice big office, huge work center with lots of equipment, great overall compound where lots of work was done in the past. Look at the size of the Pleasant Valley district,,, they have two employees, a recreation guy and a range guy, we help because they are in desperate need of help. They do manage to get the lights turned on and off. Looks like they are going to get combined with Payson, good deal, Payson is swamped, has no capacity to take on more.
Not happy TM, join the club, have never met anyone that is, including FS personal. Think there are mistakes, join the club, everyone involved agrees, the "fix it" list is huge. Most FS personal are good people, who got into it because they enjoy the outdoors. Just to find themselves stuck at a desk, with way more workload than they can ever do, taking complaints, demands from from people who have no idea of what is realistic.
There is no "they" there to do anything for us. If you go to the Lake and see camp grounds "closed for the season" or whatever, in most cases that isn't true, it is because they have no budget, personal left, to maintain them. A couple of TRAL volunteers that have CDL licenses, drive the "honey wagon", pump the vault toilets, clean up the camp grounds, so at least some camp grounds are open. When you go to a district office, the person that you talk to at the counter is most likely a volunteer, likely doesn't have the best knowledge, training, but better than no one?
Unfortunately, as we have become painfully aware, it is much easier to make a case against OHV than for it. Would be much easier to call it all a wilderness, lock it up and not have to deal with OHV. Fortunately there are very good people in Tonto, through our programs where we take them out on the trails and show them what OHV is about, now better understand it. This has made big inroads, but, there is no "they" there to do anything for "us". The OHV community has to take responsibility for and do what we can to maintain, improve what we have been given, or there will be less,,, or none.
If you can't get out, commit to work, or even if you do, consider a donation to your favorite OHV advocacy group. TRAL is a good choice, we only work local, very efficient, almost all of any donation goes directly to OHV improvements. We are a charitable organization for taxes, so consider TRAL in that planning. It is much more important now, than ever.
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Sorry for barging in and the rant,,, OUT.
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Since this now has a thread of it's own and not part of the ROTM thread I add something I found out looking at some old maps I had up north. In a eighties Tonto map 608 shows going all the way to the boundary line. Coconino map for 1992 no longer shows it going to the boundary instead looks like it is in the 2012 TM. So for twenty years before the first TM came out it was illegal to drive to the boundary in Coconino NF. I know the Sierra Club has a chapter in N. AZ, for how long I'm not sure. But as far back as the mid eighties prime off road trails were being closed. Main one was the Weatherford Rd up into the San Francisco Peaks on the south side. There was almost no use on this trail and can't believe any real study was done on the environmental impact. Because of the way this climbed into the peaks there was no wildcat trails off of it. The whole SF Peaks area has been favorite of the greenies to getting closed down. When some hikers left a campfire unattended and caused the Schultz Fire it showed what happens when you close a area to vehicle traffic making hard to fight a fire. Like Kevin pointed out the country is broke and FS budget has been cut to nothing so air resources are usually only used once a fire is out of control. A young girl lost her life the following year by flooding caused by this fire. I will never forget Bruce Babbitt's comment at end Clinton's second term how all the road closures will effect the ability to fight forest fires. He said forest fires aren't fought on the ground anymore but rather from helicopters.
It's not just the one party, during the eighties and up to 92 the other party was in office, lot of road roads closed during that time period. Today I see quad, side by side and even Toyota Tacoma ads showing irresponsible use. While they have a disclaimer in small letters across the bottom about closed course please drive responsible and obey all laws the ads show anything but. Back east there aren't huge amounts of public land and a lot of off road use is done on private property where being crazy isn't against the law. Out west it's mainly public lands where being crazy and driving where ever you want just gives ammunition to the greenies trying to close everything down to off road use. I know the rim district in Coconino NF only has one LEO. Enforcing road closures is almost impossible. When the Weatherford Road was closed they put boulders the size of vehicles blocking the entrance. Today there is no funds and the amount of closures is increasing. Sounds like many here have driven on 608 in the last twenty-three years but doesn't sound like anyone has run into any problems or even signage showing it was illegal. Sadly I expect things to continue the way it is currently going. I would love my opinion proven wrong but with what I've seen happen in Coconino NF in the last thirty years I doubt it will.
It's not just the one party, during the eighties and up to 92 the other party was in office, lot of road roads closed during that time period. Today I see quad, side by side and even Toyota Tacoma ads showing irresponsible use. While they have a disclaimer in small letters across the bottom about closed course please drive responsible and obey all laws the ads show anything but. Back east there aren't huge amounts of public land and a lot of off road use is done on private property where being crazy isn't against the law. Out west it's mainly public lands where being crazy and driving where ever you want just gives ammunition to the greenies trying to close everything down to off road use. I know the rim district in Coconino NF only has one LEO. Enforcing road closures is almost impossible. When the Weatherford Road was closed they put boulders the size of vehicles blocking the entrance. Today there is no funds and the amount of closures is increasing. Sounds like many here have driven on 608 in the last twenty-three years but doesn't sound like anyone has run into any problems or even signage showing it was illegal. Sadly I expect things to continue the way it is currently going. I would love my opinion proven wrong but with what I've seen happen in Coconino NF in the last thirty years I doubt it will.
I made a call to the Payson Tonto district office to get some answers. Talked with Chris Welker and he knew exactly the trail I was inquiring on, and yes FR608 is closed on the Tonto side. TRAL's run (7-18-2015) on the CLOSED FR608 was not approved by the Tonto Forest for vehicular access, evaluate, or do any trail maintenance.
It would of been a lot more club friendly and informative if the TRAL members would of stepped up and told the story on how they made the mistake and drove and maintained the trail illegally. I would of found very easy to understand and be acceptance rather than the childish bully response of BTDT but you cant. Shame on you inkpot
CSC has always supported, appreciate, and encourage TRALs POSITIVE input here on the status and issues of local trails.
It would of been a lot more club friendly and informative if the TRAL members would of stepped up and told the story on how they made the mistake and drove and maintained the trail illegally. I would of found very easy to understand and be acceptance rather than the childish bully response of BTDT but you cant. Shame on you inkpot
CSC has always supported, appreciate, and encourage TRALs POSITIVE input here on the status and issues of local trails.
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I assume this is the what you are talking about Payson Work Day Trip - 7-18-2015 - Page 2 - Tonto Recreation Alliance Forum ? I also assume it's this website why the TRAL section on mud died. I'm sure this is the last thing the FS service wanted was a closed trail improved for motor vehicle travel. Personally my biggest issue was this is a historic road that was down graded to a hiking trail because of pressure from a special interest group. Unless I'm mistaken this was the only dirt road up the rim between 87 and 260. Other hiking trails but special interest aren't happy until they take everything away. The Weatherford Road was another one with a long history starting out as motorize road. Just to bad lobbyist in Washington for special interest can get the changes we currently see. My opinion is nothing should be done until it's clear who is going to fund the signage, barricades needed and who will pay for the extra law enforcement needed to enforce all the changes. But that isn't the way it works. Instead we get TM with no funds to implement any signage or extra law enforcement. The system is set up to fail giving special interest ammunition to call for more closures. While the past practices of the logging industry weren't the best the band that was in place for many years has made the problem worse. Since no thinning had been done for so many years the whole area should be closed down to everybody to protect it. I can think of more than the Schultz Fire that was started by humans in non motorized areas. Eden Fire was started back in 1978 by someone camping at the base of Mount Eden. Just a couple of years ago there was a small fire behind the Blue Ridge Reservoir. No road in the area, no lighting and only a single hiker was found in the area but denied causing the fire. With current state of the forest closing area to any motorize traffic and letting the road become overgrown is probably the worst thing the FS can do. Any damage caused by off road use is dwarfed by damage a fire in a closed area could do. History has already proven this many times. Anyone with common sense would understand this.
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Wow! Just wow after all these.
I made a call to the Payson Tonto district office to get some answers. Talked with Chris Welker and he knew exactly the trail I was inquiring on, and yes FR608 is closed on the Tonto side. TRAL's run (7-18-2015) on the CLOSED FR608 was not approved by the Tonto Forest for vehicular access, evaluate, or do any trail maintenance.
It would of been a lot more club friendly and informative if the TRAL members would of stepped up and told the story on how they made the mistake and drove and maintained the trail illegally. I would of found very easy to understand and be acceptance rather than the childish bully response of BTDT but you cant. Shame on you inkpot
CSC has always supported, appreciate, and encourage TRALs POSITIVE input here on the status and issues of local trails.
Thanks Phil for taking the time to find a closure to this.
TRAL was invited to go on a (route unspecified) trail run by an old established club in Payson. Did not realize it was a closed route until we were well onto it. My Delorme GPS shows it as Open. Our mistake. Regardless, it is still CLOSED. We plan on taking the new District Ranger, and maybe even the Forest Supervisor up there to convince them that the locals are right. It is a viable historic trail that can support OHV traffic and should be OPEN. No real progress can be made until after TM is signed. TRAL has made more than one mistake over the years, but none have cost the OHV Community any lose of access or trail mileage. We have made just a few gains in those areas. TRAL may make a few more mistakes in the future but we will continue gaining access and miles of OHV trails. What has CSC done lately for the good of the OHV Community?
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Correct, TRAL has their own forum, for a variety of reasons including; Forest and others had access issues on Mud, TRAL grew to needing more than Woody was willing to accommodate, etc. Nothing sinister, the trail reports are still public, just like they were on Mud.
My understanding; this route was closed for resource protection, some of the stone coverts under the road collapsed, so less traffic = less stress on the historic structures. So, no "special interest groups" involved, feel free to read whatever you want into that.
Unfortunately, there is no book, manual, set of procedures, within Forest for working with volunteers at the level that TRAL does, so mistakes are made. The procedures are being written on the fly, all of us are learning how to do it, what works and doesn't. TRAL also interacts, shares, learns with other like organizations, helping to bring everyone up to speed quicker.
We work off of Forest supplied data, it is often incomplete, inaccurate or wrong, TRAL is helping to improve this. In this case there were several errors, data and procedural, learned from them, fixes are in place to have better info in the future. None of this is done in the dark, after each event a report is sent in to Forest, link to the thread, etc, discussion follows about what worked or not.
If discussing the trials, tribulations, mistakes in the history of the TRAL/Forest relationship is important, I only remember some. Would guess the historian for that job is open, but it would be a pretty long list to recreate? We prefer to be positive, own up to it, do what can be done to prevent it in the future and move forward to more productive things. In the TRAL and individual contracts is the clause that any/all can be fired at anytime, for any reason, to my knowledge, it have never used or even discussed. Even with all of our transgressions, I would rate the relationship with most of the Forest personal that we deal with, in the good to great range. One way to assure no mistakes, would be to do nothing, but some of us would call that, the biggest mistake.
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So I think one thing that CSC does really well is educate the new to the area, new to the sport and teach responsible wheeling within the various areas we run. These are often the same trails that other clubs or organizations run so most assume that if one can do it then so can the next person or group. CSC has members in multiple organizations including TRAL and people volunteer where their schedule allows.
I wish the TRAL organization much continued success, thanks for helping this ROTM from making a mistake that some TRAL members had already made on a confusing trail that was not clearly marked.
I wish the TRAL organization much continued success, thanks for helping this ROTM from making a mistake that some TRAL members had already made on a confusing trail that was not clearly marked.
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