oh no! metal in oil pan! (2 Viewers)

[lostmarbles]

You've got good oil pressure as people say Drew. I'd closely inspect the piston skirts and cylinder bores etc as much as possible from below (while your pan is off and by turning the engine over via a rear wheel or similar). Then if you see nothing of concern. I too would keep running it.

Of course I know you have the "apparent excessive oil consumption problem" too.

But "good oil pressure" plus "no visible signs of damage" must suggest "no serious problem". (And you've had the head off recently.)

And your "previous owner" is a "completely unknown quantity". Who knows what he/she had been doing!!!

I reckon - Just remain vigilant in checking your oil thoroughly at every oil change and in cutting open your oil filter . (I might try that "cutting-open-the-oil-filter-trick" too.)

Cheers
Tom

PS. Talking of filters - For the first time in 30+ years of changing fuel filters - I recently up-ended the last one I changed into a bowl. And I found a large droplet of rusty water. ---- Must be time to flush out the bottom of my fuel tank again ---- )

 

[amaurer]

You've got good oil pressure as people say Drew. I'd closely inspect the piston skirts and cylinder bores etc as much as possible from below (while your pan is off and by turning the engine over via a rear wheel or similar). Then if you see nothing of concern. I too would keep running it.

Of course I know you have the "apparent excessive oil consumption problem" too.

But "good oil pressure" plus "no visible signs of damage" must suggest "no serious problem". (And you've had the head off recently.)

And your "previous owner" is a "completely unknown quantity". Who knows what he/she had been doing!!!

I reckon - Just remain vigilant in checking your oil thoroughly at every oil change and in cutting open your oil filter . (I might try that "cutting-open-the-oil-filter-trick" too.)

Cheers
Tom

PS. Talking of filters - For the first time in 30+ years of changing fuel filters - I recently up-ended the last one I changed into a bowl. And I found a large droplet of rusty water. ---- Must be time to flush out the bottom of my fuel tank again ---- )

I did inspect the skirts, those things are beefy!! You have your set of B pistons, so I guess I don't need to tell you. All of mine looked fine, but if material came off of them I'd expect it to be somewhat larger anyway.

As for the bores, I checked them when the head was off and they all looked great. I suppose it could have happened afterwards, but given that the filter was clean I kinda doubt it. I think the damage happened in the past and the smaller debris already got removed in a past filter change.

Unfortunately I don't have the funds to tear down an engine to good looking for a mystery part. I actually went and looked at what came in a rebuild kit to see what, if anything, might look like my chunks, but didn't see anything.

On the one hand, I realize that there aren't "Extra" parts in my engine that I don't need to worry about, but I also think that the evidence doesn't support bearing failure so... what can I really do?

As you say, I have no noise, and no indications that the "wheels are coming off" so I put the pan back on and am running it. I'm honestly hoping that you all, and the cruiser Gods, don't judge me for being cavalier, but my plan is to keep cutting oil filters and pull the pan again in a couple thousands kms to see if anythign new has appeared.

 

[lshobie]

Would be a mean trick for a guy sellign a cruiser though - dump a bunch of metal parts in the oil pan so the new owner freaks out. Maybe I'll put some quarters and a loonie in my oil pan the next time I have it off.

Your plan is solid - if you don't have the funds keep an eye on it. I think it's something to do with a thrust washer.

I was talking to a guy the other day, he had a bj70 with 3b and it had made some noise for a short while - then stopped. He drove it for years, turned out to be the the front(IIRC) cam bearing - came apart and made it's way to the oil pan - my buddy found it when he took the oil pan off for some reason - they replaced the bearing and it is still fine. I'll try to get the specifics on that one - I heard it a long time ago.

Good Luck!

 

[lostmarbles]

I think I'd follow exactly what you've done if I was in similar circumstances Drew (and maybe even if I had the money and time to tear it down too).

And I've got a "B rebuild kit" here as you know. The pistons are indeed exceptionally heavy/beefy. And I don't associate those bits you've found with any part of my kit (even taking note of what Louis says about the cam-bearing possibility.)


cheers
Tom

 

[Icefire]

Do you have any friends at a local university or college in a mechanical engineering program. Im a material engineer, you should be able to tell if its lead, tin, aluminium, or zinc. If its lead its bearings.

How soft is it,

 

[Icefire]

Lead is softer than most of the metals i mentioned, if you can determine the density, then you know what it is.

 

[amaurer]

Lead is softer than most of the metals i mentioned, if you can determine the density, then you know what it is.

I don't have to go that far; I know its lead. Its ductile, and melts readily with a torch. As has been said, however, its too big to be from a rod bearing and I feel mains are also unlikely... I'm thinking thrust bearing.

 

[crushers]

that piece with the "lip" has me thinking (with no answer)... that looks formed but what i am not sure...

 

[amaurer]

that piece with the "lip" has me thinking (with no answer)... that looks formed but what i am not sure...

Yeah I don't know. I measured my pieces with a caliper, the most undamaged piece is 0.68mm thick. I also read some patents on bearing construction:

Intermediate layer 54 provides fatigue strength for bearing 20' and provides a bearing surface in the event of the removal of overlay layer 56. Layer 54 is conventional in the art. Layer 54 may be comprised of any of a number of conventional metal compositions. In a constructed embodiment, however, layer 54 was comprised of about 72% copper, about 25% lead, and about 3% tin by weight. Layer 54 is arcuate in shape and has a convex outer surface 62 adjacent surface 60 of backing layer 52 and a concave inner surface 64 adjacent overlay layer 56. In the main bearings 20, layer 54 may range from about 0.008 inches to about 0.021 inches in thickness. In the connecting rod bearings 20', layer 54 may range from about 0.007 inches to about 0.020 inches in thickness.

That thickness range is .18mm to .53mm.

Also, now that I think about it, the one or two pieces that have curvature are curved along the flat dimension like a bearing, not like a thrust washer. hmmm. ooh, I could measure the curvature of one of the chunk and extrapolate the diamter of whatever it used to contact. What is the diameter of the crankshaft main and conrod or camshaft journals?

If I was going to replace the bearings, I can do that with the crank in place, right? Somone once told me a trick about sticking a little key into the crank oil passage and turning the crank to rotate the upper shell out. How do I decide what size over bearings to use before I take anything apart though?

 

[Icefire]

Any chance someone used lead to solder(braze) your oil pan?

Chances are if its a main bearing, you are gonna have to pull the crank and machine it.


Could it be a cam bearing?

 

[amaurer]

Ok, I'm a nerd.

I found the "best" looking fragment, one that didn't *appear* deformed. A little math later, and it appears that these pieces came from something that is between 48.2 and 55.4mm dia (I propagated what I thought was my measurement uncertainty, but my measurements had poor repeatability so this range is not firm).

I don't have a handy chart of all the 3B dimensions, but Tom very helpfully posted all of the 2B dimensions here (https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tec...7cc-b-3431cc-3b-parts-interchangeability.html). The mains and cam are the same between the 3B and 2B, but the BEB's are not... I'm goign to assume they're close...

(2B numbers)
Mains: 69.980 - 70.000 mm
BEBs: 58.980 - 59.000 mm
Cam: 46.760 - 47.180 mm

My pieces: 48.2 - 55.4 mm

Of course, I'm assuming the piece I chose wasn't deformed much when it was released. But it doesn't seem to be from a main. Its possible that it could be part of a camshaft bearing or BEB, however the pieces are still somewhat thicker than that patent suggests they typically should be for a bearing. I dunno.

Can anyone post BEB bearing ID's for the 3B? Please?

 

[lshobie]

Very cool, wonder where the rest of it is hanging out, I suspect once it all makes it way down to the bottom you wil have a better idea of what it is.

 

[kim]

Do you have any friends at a local university or college in a mechanical engineering program. Im a material engineer, you should be able to tell if its lead, tin, aluminium, or zinc. If its lead its bearings.

How soft is it,

Take a sample to a commercial geo-chem lab or similar for a multi-element test. It should be quite cheap, less than 50 bucks. That would give you an idea whether it is solder or not. Maybe someones idea of a cheap gasket fix?

 

[crushers]

i really suspect it is left over from a previous owners messing around or just a practicle joke

 

[eleblanc]

I would bring this to the nearest hino maintenance shop, with the old oil and have it analyse. I know the detroit diesel dealer in montreal does this.

 

[Tofudebeest]

I'm paying extra close attention, but my metal pieces looked absolutely nothing like this and were miniscule by comparison. I'll be sure to get some photos thisd Saturday and post 'em up here and in my own build thread on Sunday...

 

[TOBASH]

So far I think the best thing I have done is allow a skilled oil place to change the oil. In that menner no-one looked for metal fragments and I can sleep nights.

Best,

T

 

[Radd Cruisers]

Prolly something from the engine, we pulled a pan last week and found simular pieces.


3Bs are freaken hardy I would not be surprised that it would go another couple hundred thousand miles.


Good luck.

Rob

 

[amaurer]

Prolly something from the engine, we pulled a pan last week and found simular pieces.


3Bs are freaken hardy I would not be surprised that it would go another couple hundred thousand miles.


Good luck.

Rob

About 1000 more miles since I pulled the pan, no problems so far. I'm going to pull it again for my next oil change and check the bearings too. we'll see..

 

[amaurer]

well, its been 5000 or more miles since I found the metal in my oil pan, but now my oil pressure has started to drop. (see https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/274235-low-oil-pressure.html)

I finally got around to checking the FSM, however, about the diameter of the 3B camshaft bearings - 53mm. So it looks like my estimate of 48.2 - 55.4 mm is right in this range. My oil pressure lately has been dropping a bit at higher RPM, which some say is a symptom of camshaft bearing problems.

Here is some wishful thinking, maybe the old pros on the forum can weigh in -

My first two (forward-most) valves are a bit worn - there were big divots in the rockers, and some valve recession on the intake valve. I'm wondering if this means the forward-most cam bearing is the bad one, and the cam is flopping around a bit up front? If so, I could probably manage to change those bearings with the engine in the truck..........? Am I grasping at straws?