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- #281
O R I O N
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Case#100
assembled in 2004
no back cut gear, step washer or updated detent were used. All original parts.
The original coarse spline output was used and a non heat treated A/A supplied shift fork.
My orion never ever popped outa low range. It popped outa high range upon decelaration, sometimes when romping on it when you let off it would pop out.
Upon disassembly it looked really, really good in there.
The shift fork was worn but not to the extent Algazy's was in the pic he posted.
The high speed gear had a slight burr on the leading edge of dog teeth caused by the pop outa gear issue.
The thrust clearance was in need of a step washer to achieve .006 so we obtained that from Matt @ A/A along with gaskets and the detent upgrade kit.
The clearance for the high speed gear bushing to shaft( original coarse spline) was .003 with a shaft measurement of 1.576.
A new bushing was found for the gear( don't even ask) and that made a big difference. It mic'd out at .001 better than the original bushing but the original bushing had worn in an hourglass pattern which contributed to the gears ability to oscilate. The original shaft @ 1.576 was the best of 5 or 6 I had & measured and with the new bushing the gear rides very, very nicely. I feel that the bushing will wear in the hourglass pattern and that after some time it will need replacing again but that is speculation and time will tell.
Lastly, we are reassembling the case with a OEM , heat treated shift fork that we will machine accordingly.
Case#100
assembled in 2004
no back cut gear, step washer or updated detent were used. All original parts.
The original coarse spline output was used and a non heat treated A/A supplied shift fork.
My orion never ever popped outa low range. It popped outa high range upon decelaration, sometimes when romping on it when you let off it would pop out.
Upon disassembly it looked really, really good in there.
The shift fork was worn but not to the extent Algazy's was in the pic he posted.
The high speed gear had a slight burr on the leading edge of dog teeth caused by the pop outa gear issue.
The thrust clearance was in need of a step washer to achieve .006 so we obtained that from Matt @ A/A along with gaskets and the detent upgrade kit.
The clearance for the high speed gear bushing to shaft( original coarse spline) was .003 with a shaft measurement of 1.576.
A new bushing was found for the gear( don't even ask) and that made a big difference. It mic'd out at .001 better than the original bushing but the original bushing had worn in an hourglass pattern which contributed to the gears ability to oscilate. The original shaft @ 1.576 was the best of 5 or 6 I had & measured and with the new bushing the gear rides very, very nicely. I feel that the bushing will wear in the hourglass pattern and that after some time it will need replacing again but that is speculation and time will tell.
Lastly, we are reassembling the case with a OEM , heat treated shift fork that we will machine accordingly.
- Thread starter
- #283
You have the case apart again, and you are not going to replace the main shaft that has previously wore a bushing oddly?
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
exactly!
one thing you might be neglecting to correct is the fork wear. there has to be a reason why the for is wearing and why the case is popping out of high, not low. if i were you, i'd definetly look into this or it's bound to happen again, especially if you're going to run the same shaft ( which i would highly recommend against.....; new shafts are $160. i have at least 6 in stock.....).
if i had to take an educated guess, i'd say that the detent on the shift rail is favoring your low gear. that means when the fork is in the low detent position, the collar is bottoming out on the gear while the checkball is still not all the way in the low detent, constantly pulling the fork towards the low gear. i bet your old fork is worn on the low gear side........
everytime i build an orion i make sure that the collar is centered on the mainshaft when in neutral and that travel to the low and high speed gears is equal, sometimes even favoring the low speed gear a little if anything. i also make sure that the fork is not hitting the inside of the case on either side ( high or low speed ). sometimes you have to rey a combination of fork and shift rails to get them just right, but it's also possible to move the gear cluster forwards or back in the case depending on where you place the shims to set the preload. they don't have to be between the rear race and speedo housing, you can shim the front race away from the nose cone just the same.
ask me, improper detent location is THE reason for fork wear. i've seen it time and again.......
so in short, get a new main shaft in there and all should be well as long as your detents are in the proper spot.
hth
georg @ valley hybrids
the "odd pattern" is a slight hourglass type and is not an issue. It contributed to the oscilation of the gear in theory. The shaft could be upgraded to the fine spline stuff but we did not. It is a good shaft. The clearance is where it is supposed to be. And the thrust issue is finally done. The new detent I will have to install it and see how stiff it shifts. Overall I was impressed with the condition of the components.
Georg, yes we went over all that very thuroughly to ensure the detent location was correct. The old shift fork was in fact worn on the low side and from just what you said, the ball not seated in detent. Did not have the depth of parts to pull from that you have but had enough to look at a few combo's to get the best one. Is it that big a deal to get the fine spline front output ? I had a spare nose cone with a shaft and yoke in the trail box was one reason I did not change it and after putting the new bushing in and checking it it fit well within tolerance and fit properly. I dunno , maybe the fine spline stuff shoulda gone in.
Georg, yes we went over all that very thuroughly to ensure the detent location was correct. The old shift fork was in fact worn on the low side and from just what you said, the ball not seated in detent. Did not have the depth of parts to pull from that you have but had enough to look at a few combo's to get the best one. Is it that big a deal to get the fine spline front output ? I had a spare nose cone with a shaft and yoke in the trail box was one reason I did not change it and after putting the new bushing in and checking it it fit well within tolerance and fit properly. I dunno , maybe the fine spline stuff shoulda gone in.
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- Thread starter
- #286
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
huh? what?????
put the pipe down john! it's not a hug deal, but why not build the best orion you can if you have the parts on hand? the fine spline front output is a ton stronger than the coarse spline counterpart ( which is the weakest link imho ). i think you're trying to save money in the wrong places.
you've been bitching about your orion since day one and now you're gonna put half the parts that outta be replaced back in. makes no sense to me. not at all.
sorry if i'm being brutally honest. that's just me so don't take it personal. i ain't one to beat around the bush and i'm sure you're fully aware of it after all these years.
georg
Um, you only have 1 eye so I give you some credit for that.
Hourglass pattern meant that the bushing was worn more at the edges than in the center, does that make sense now ?
I did not have the fine spline stuff on hand, coulda got it easily but did not.
It'll be fine.
I understand fully that the prudent thing would be to replace it all up to snuff but since when have you know me to be prudent ?
Hourglass pattern meant that the bushing was worn more at the edges than in the center, does that make sense now ?
I did not have the fine spline stuff on hand, coulda got it easily but did not.
It'll be fine.
I understand fully that the prudent thing would be to replace it all up to snuff but since when have you know me to be prudent ?
- Thread starter
- #289
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
Mostly done, you meant.
What's the torque spec for the hi-low shifter control shaft?
I'm guessing 50 ft lbs to shift it now. There's no way the single stick is going to shift it without some internal adjustment to the detent spring. Of course I didn't bother to test it when I had more than 3" clearance. 
Helpful comments welcome.
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mine was doing this also only on steep down hills. When we pulled the boot off for the sticks the hi-low lever was contacting the tub a little. This was keeping it form going all the way into Low and when the body flexed it would pop it out momentarily. A little trimming of the tub and the problem went away.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
Mostly done, you meant.
What's the torque spec for the hi-low shifter control shaft?
Helpful comments welcome.
did you discuss this with mark? often times the mechanical linkage will meet it's limits when running an orion with the updated detent. i would NOT recommend you modify the detent. if you do, it can/might pop out of gear. if you can't get it to shift with the oem mechanical linkage, then you might think about going to twin sticks.
one the bench and or sitting still in the vehicle they're usually pretty hard to shift. they do settle in after some time but not much. usually they will shift a little easier of the vehicle is at a slight roll.......
hth
georg
Yea, he thought mine was tighter than his, and he shifts his with a pair of channel locks.
orangefj45 said:
I guess I knew this, but I was optimistic about keeping it stock. I'm still thinking I might be able to come up with an upgraded single-stick design. [/quote]
orangefj45 said:
When my tank and drive shafts were still out I tried shifting it while turning it over, but it didn't help much.
I'm going to pop off the linkage and shift it a few times with a big crescent wrench and get an idea of what it's going to take.
I'm not totally opposed to twin sticks, but I was hoping for stock.
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
he shifts his with a pair of channel locks.
he's pulling your leg, that has to be a joke!
orangefj45
Supporting Vendor
you probably could make it work by somehow beefing up the oem linkage but that's gonna take a lot of work. a lot! a well installed set of twin sticks does not look out of place imho and they definetly take care of the job at hand. sure, they might not look as "stock" as the original linkage but then again, your cruiser is not stock...........pick your battles eddy.
hth
georg
What? Not so loud, he'll hear you. It is a carefully cast collection of land cruiser parts with a light dusting of American steel.
you probably could make it work by somehow beefing up the oem linkage ... pick your battles eddy.
We'll see what happens. I don't really need low except for testing until Rubithon. I'll just keep some ch. locks handy.
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Cruiserdrew
On the way there
In my limited experience, the twin stick set up totally rocks and I would never again use the stock linkage in an offroader. It is MUCH better, stronger, more direct, more flexible etc.
I'm running Orangefj45's twins in my FJ60 and it is one of my favorite mods. I do have one minor improvement suggestion that Georg and I can discuss later...
I'm running Orangefj45's twins in my FJ60 and it is one of my favorite mods. I do have one minor improvement suggestion that Georg and I can discuss later...
I concur on the well built twin stick. After installing the new shift rail from A/A my stock shifter was not going to do the job. I too likey the twin stick.
Georg, speaking as to the detents on the new shift rails from A/A. We found that the spacing of the detents was spot on, if you have a backcut high speed gear. If you do not have a backcut gear the collar hits before the ball seats in detent. Nothing huge just a note in case others have found the same issue.
Georg, speaking as to the detents on the new shift rails from A/A. We found that the spacing of the detents was spot on, if you have a backcut high speed gear. If you do not have a backcut gear the collar hits before the ball seats in detent. Nothing huge just a note in case others have found the same issue.
rusty_tlc
Dain Bramaged Member
I like my AA twin stick set-up, it has a lot more positive feel than the OEM ever did.
