Not starting...fuel issue?

[Joe Egolf]

Kiwi Cruisers

Thats it , a conspiracy by "Lostmarbles" to keep BJ4x's in Kiwi land.I am gonna stay with the plugs I have and sorta wait and see?? I have no real starting issues and I dont drive my cruiser in the winter here in New England and our salted roads.In fact I plan to be in Florida Jan to may.

 

[Tapage]

x2 Mine come on for 3 seconds in summer and 6-7 secs in winter. How much do plugs cost in Panama. I got offered HKT plugs for a 1HZ for $42 a set. Half normal price

more less the same price as you get overthere .. I'm really not sure exactly how much it was, but nothing really expensive.

Hey Tapage. Are you as "age-compromised" as so many others of us here?

Well you are right .. I'm too old ( 32 right now ) and use glasses to much time ( since I was 13 .. )

 

[lostmarbles]

Just going back over all your posts in this thread Tapage.......

....
Mines are 8.5 .. even with bad glow plugs a healthy 2H will be able to start rought but start and run under normal temp conditions .. ( means over 12 - 15ºC ) outside ..

I note the importance of the second part of what you said here (in particular) - And I'm assuming this is why Rosco still thinks Greg may have a fuel problem (in addition to his glowplug problem).

But I'm assuming instead that perhaps his 2H may be more like my B engine in requiring "glowing" for almost every start (even when his engine has lain idle for just 30 minutes say). So far Greg hasn't explained what his "normal engine-starting behaviour" is/was in this respect. (And my assumption could well be wrong.)

here is the part # that I use in my 2H ..
Just wondering if this issue are not veggie related .?

I need to goo and double check on mines .. swear that I'v seen 8.5 .. now I'm not sure ..
Here my olds .. but I can't determinate if they said 8.5 or 10.5V ..

So we must assume you now accept you have 10.5V plugs?

....Well you are right .. I'm too old ( 32 right now ) and use glasses to much time ( since I was 13 .. )

Ha ha. - Yeah. Age is absolutely "relative". If you were a school teacher - the kids in your class would indeed refer to you as "old". (Just ignore my impertinent comments - Most people do )

 

[roscoFJ73]

Just going back over all your posts in this thread Tapage.......



- And I'm assuming this is why Rosco still thinks Greg may have a fuel problem (in addition to his glowplug problem).

:

Im assuming that position because I havent seen fuel eliminated as a problem .

Ive also never seen a 2H have glow problems like this.
In oz (and I bet NZ is the same ),if the glow relay is troublesome,it is scrapped and a simpler aftrmarket relay with an adjustable timer is fitted.
End of problem

However I inderstand that some owners of older cruisers like to keep it all original

 

[Tapage]

But I'm assuming instead that perhaps his 2H may be more like my B engine in requiring "glowing" for almost every start (even when his engine has lain idle for just 30 minutes say). So far Greg hasn't explained what his "normal engine-starting behaviour" is/was in this respect. (And my assumption could well be wrong.)

Actually I remember Tencha before Turbo .. I can start she without any glow at any time, no matter if she was rest for a week or for a hour ..

Ya sure, remember I'm in Panamá, so we have " low " temps like 18ºC normal .. after my turbo it's a totaly diferent story, thought lost compresion and now I need to glow she to start in the mornings and that's all .. no glow again for the hole day.

Ha ha. - Yeah. Age is absolutely "relative". If you were a school teacher - the kids in your class would indeed refer to you as "old". (Just ignore my impertinent comments - Most people do )

don't worry .. I'm in this proces, you know .. ( I'm a basketball player ) when younger childs run and jump much more than you now ..

In oz (and I bet NZ is the same ),if the glow relay is troublesome,it is scrapped and a simpler aftrmarket relay with an adjustable timer is fitted.
End of problem

However I inderstand that some owners of older cruisers like to keep it all original

To much problem to me .. I my EDIC dies .. it gonna be replaced with a wilson swith as fast as I can say MUD !

 

[GregFrench]

Well. Above all - Caution is the most important thing. And

• 8.5V is what you've always been running
• 8.5V appears to be what the EPC says you should run
• HJ47 (who's a cruiser guru in my eyes) agrees

So I think the 8.5V is a wise/cautious choice Greg.

But why try to buy a new glow controller immediately? Are you sure your present one is knackered?

And - Was I right in assuming your vehicle is like mine in needing "glow" for almost every start? (Even when the engine is still quite warm. - Say 30 minutes after it was last running.) - Cos an answer to this of "No" could mean Rosco's suggestion that you also have a fuel problem could still be right.

Yes it needs a glow for almost every start. The glow controller (which is what I am calling that little coil on the dash that lights up) has not worked since before I put the last set of plugs in. I took it out and tested the wires going into and out of it, and they work. So that leads me to the conclusion it is knackered.

 

[amaurer]

Yes it needs a glow for almost every start. The glow controller (which is what I am calling that little coil on the dash that lights up) has not worked since before I put the last set of plugs in. I took it out and tested the wires going into and out of it, and they work. So that leads me to the conclusion it is knackered.

Its simply a coil of wire, it can't be knackered. The only thing that could possibly happen to it is that the coil breaks, in which case you'd end up with high resistance (low glow power) or an open circuit (no glow power).

 

[kim]

A very interesting discussion.

Thanks all.

 

[lostmarbles]

I eagerly await the photos of your old disintegrated glow plug(s) - assuming you're able to provide them Greg. And I'd like to know exactly how many you find to be open-circuited too.

I'm still puzzled why you're so sure your glow controller needs replacement though.

Based on your vehicle's temperament (of needing "glow" on almost any occasion before it will think of starting - just like my B engine) - I now believe you don't have any fuel problems at all. - In other words - In your post right at the beginning where you explained your were running your battery flat while trying to start your 2H - I'm now much more confident that this "flattening-the-battery" and "failing-to-start" was ALL attributable to your faulty/damaged glow system.



PS. I've tried to go back in my posts and "edit-in comments" to enable future readers to more readily make sense of this thread (and hopefully avoid their "drawing the wrong conclusions from parts of it"). The alternative would have been to delete the many bits where my "diagnosii" were on the wrong track - but I believe it is better for people to see "errors being made".

But unfortunately, people who draw conclusions (such as what plugs they should be running) by reading only parts of this thread (without reading the whole thing) are still likely to get misguided.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Its simply a coil of wire, it can't be knackered. The only thing that could possibly happen to it is that the coil breaks, in which case you'd end up with high resistance (low glow power) or an open circuit (no glow power).

Im not good with electrical diagrams,but the 2H schematic for a 60 or 75 series shows the glowplug indicator light independant to the glowplugs.
Hence, it should not affect the operation of the glow plugs whether it is working or not.

Thats on a HJ60/75,is a HJ47 different?

It would seem strange to wire an indicator light in line when there is no need for it to be wired that way.

 

[amaurer]

Im not good with electrical diagrams,but the 2H schematic for a 60 or 75 series shows the glowplug indicator light independant to the glowplugs.
Hence, it should not affect the operation of the glow plugs whether it is working or not.

Thats on a HJ60/75,is a HJ47 different?

It would seem strange to wire an indicator light in line when there is no need for it to be wired that way.

Tom and I have had ENDLESS amounts of fun talking about this (Henry James the 47th too), but the wiring diagram is misleading. The glow controler is not a light, its a coil of wire that glows red hot; its connected in series with the glow plugs so ALL of the glow current passes right through.

The wiring diagrams show a wire to the glow relay S terminal that would "bypass" the glow controller, however both Henry James and I have physically opened out relays to find that there is NOTHING connected to this terminal. It is simply inexplicable, but its true.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Tom and I have had ENDLESS amounts of fun talking about this (Henry James the 47th too), but the wiring diagram is misleading. The glow controler is not a light, its a coil of wire that glows red hot; its connected in series with the glow plugs so ALL of the glow current passes right through.

The wiring diagrams show a wire to the glow relay S terminal that would "bypass" the glow controller, however both Henry James and I have physically opened out relays to find that there is NOTHING connected to this terminal. It is simply inexplicable, but its true.

Weird.Normally things are not wired like that for obvious reasons

 

[roscoFJ73]

Actually I remember Tencha before Turbo .. I can start she without any glow at any time, no matter if she was rest for a week or for a hour ..

Ya sure, remember I'm in Panamá, so we have " low " temps like 18ºC normal .. after my turbo it's a totaly diferent story, thought lost compresion and now I need to glow she to start in the mornings and that's all .. no glow again for the hole day.

:

- I now believe you don't have any fuel problems at all. - .

My own experiences tallies with Tapage. The amount of glow GF has been giving his 2H ,it should be like the centre of the sun in there

 

[GregFrench]

My own experiences tallies with Tapage. The amount of glow GF has been giving his 2H ,it should be like the centre of the sun in there

Let me clarify...It seems to be easier on the starter if I glow it. In the morning, yes I need to glow it. It will start with out glow, but takes a long time. After the initial start up, it will start for the rest of the day without glowing, but not as fast as when I glow it (5 seconds instead of 2). If it has been sitting more than 4 or 5 hours it takes longer to start and glowing is helpful. That is when running diesel.

If I am running veggie, it needs a glow on every start. If it will be sitting more than 4 or 5 hours (in the summer...less in the cold) it needs to be shut down on diesel or it will not start without a visit from the ether bunny.

 

[Tapage]

Let me clarify...It seems to be easier on the starter if I glow it. In the morning, yes I need to glow it. It will start with out glow, but takes a long time. After the initial start up, it will start for the rest of the day without glowing, but not as fast as when I glow it (5 seconds instead of 2). If it has been sitting more than 4 or 5 hours it takes longer to start and glowing is helpful. That is when running diesel..

Keeping in mind my usual temp during the day are between 28 - 32ºC I found it's much more easy to me not glow and simpli turn the key ( simple and less wear on the batt ) ..

 

[GregFrench]

Ok...I looked closer at the glow indicator and found that I really don't understand as much about life as I thought. It looks simple and straightforward enough. It has 2 wires coming into the box (both +). Inside the box the wires go through insulators, then are connected by the bare coiled wire (the one you see glowing when activated). Simple enough. Basically it is just a wire that has been stripped and glows when current passes through.

Here's the part I don't get: I tested the wires going in. Both getting 12v. Inside the box part it is also getting 12v. The coil is getting power on the left side, but none on the right.
If it is all just 1 bare piece of wire, how can only half of it be getting power? It is solid with no cracks or weak spots or anything.
I've been thinking about this all night long. Anybody have any ideas?

 

[amaurer]

Ok...I looked closer at the glow indicator and found that I really don't understand as much about life as I thought. It looks simple and straightforward enough. It has 2 wires coming into the box (both +). Inside the box the wires go through insulators, then are connected by the bare coiled wire (the one you see glowing when activated). Simple enough. Basically it is just a wire that has been stripped and glows when current passes through.

Here's the part I don't get: I tested the wires going in. Both getting 12v. Inside the box part it is also getting 12v. The coil is getting power on the left side, but none on the right.
If it is all just 1 bare piece of wire, how can only half of it be getting power? It is solid with no cracks or weak spots or anything.
I've been thinking about this all night long. Anybody have any ideas?

Sounds like your measurements weren't precise enough.

Try again, and pay extra close attention to the measurements you take at the two wires going in. One should meaure ~12V, and the other should measure a couple volts below that.

If they really are measuring exactly the same voltage, it means you have very little current flowing through the glow system... blown plugs, disconnected bus bar, blown link, etc. In that case you should measure the voltage at one of your plugs...

(As for your internal measurements, you should probably just ignore them, it can be hard to measure voltages on a piece of resistance wire as it forms a nonconductive oxide layer in air which can insulate your probe)

 

[GregFrench]

let me clarify....If I take a piece of wire and strip it, then run a current through it, it should read the same all the way through, right?
That is essentially what this glow indicator is...a stripped piece of wire. But It gets a current reading only on one side, The other is dead. No reading on my multimeter or a current test light.
No visible breakage, corrosion, warping, or weak spots.

I already know at least 1 glow plug is faulty (although they are all getting about 10v if you read above a few pages).
I was just wondering how a bare wire could be partially bad like this. It just doesn't make sense.

My new one should be here in a few days.

 

[amaurer]

let me clarify....If I take a piece of wire and strip it, then run a current through it, it should read the same all the way through, right?
That is essentially what this glow indicator is...a stripped piece of wire. But It gets a current reading only on one side, The other is dead. No reading on my multimeter or a current test light.
No visible breakage, corrosion, warping, or weak spots.

There are two statements in that paragraph, and unfortunately they're both wrong. Measuring the voltage at two ends of a wire will never give you exactly the same voltage, the negative end will always be a little lower than the positive end, this is due to the resistance of the wire and the power thats given off as heat. Generally this is small and you don't notice, however the glow controller uses resistance wire which has very high resistance and is designed to turn as much voltage as possible into heat. Thus you should see the voltage a volt or two lower on the downstream side.

I already know at least 1 glow plug is faulty (although they are all getting about 10v if you read above a few pages).
I was just wondering how a bare wire could be partially bad like this. It just doesn't make sense.

My new one should be here in a few days.

There is nothing in between the controller and the plugs. The voltage you measure at the plugs should be the same as you measure at the output side of the controller.

***Make sure you take your voltage measurements with the whole system hooked up. You can't disconnect a wire to make measuring easier, it will affect your measurement greatly.***

 

[GregFrench]

There are two statements in that paragraph, and unfortunately they're both wrong. Measuring the voltage at two ends of a wire will never give you exactly the same voltage, the negative end will always be a little lower than the positive end, this is due to the resistance of the wire and the power thats given off as heat. Generally this is small and you don't notice, however the glow controller uses resistance wire which has very high resistance and is designed to turn as much voltage as possible into heat. Thus you should see the voltage a volt or two lower on the downstream side.



There is nothing in between the controller and the plugs. The voltage you measure at the plugs should be the same as you measure at the output side of the controller.

***Make sure you take your voltage measurements with the whole system hooked up. You can't disconnect a wire to make measuring easier, it will affect your measurement greatly.***

I guess I'm not explaining myself clearly. Forget about voltage. My multimeter isn't that exact. Let's talk current as in measured with a test light (It lights up when electricity is there).
It lights up when testing both wires going into the glow indicator, and only on 1 half of the resistor wire. Just seems strange is all.