Not starting...fuel issue?

[lostmarbles]

...Here is some history:
- Bought the truck 2 years ago and everyuthing worked great.

OK. so here everything is OK Greg.

..- Started taking a long time to start AND the indicator took a long time to glow. ....

OK so here you have probably lost one glow plug. (It's become open-circuited). This would LOWER the current through the controller (to make it take longer to glow) but INCREASE the current through the other plugs to hasten their demise.

....Eventually, indicator stopped and all glow plugs were bad. .....

----- Exactly.... The more glow plugs fail - the more the remainder get "stressed". The reason for this is that the plugs are connected IN PARALLEL. And their COMBINED currents flow through the glow-controller. So if one fails - the glow controller gets less current through it. Therefore its "back-EMF" (which equals/creates the voltage drop across it) lessens. This means more of the battery's voltage is applied to the remaining plugs to increase the current through them (individually). And when enough plugs fail - the current through the glow-controller becomes insufficient to make it glow at all.

Back EMF - where EMF stands for "electromotive force" is worked out from "Ohm's Law (V = I x R). The resistance (R) of the glow-controller doesn't change (much) but the current through it (I) falls whenever a plug fails (ie -becomes open-circuited). So therefore the "back EMF" created by the glow-controller (the force that opposes the current flow within it) decreases. This leaves more of the battery's EMF/Voltage applied to the remaining good plugs. (s*** - I can still remember all that electrical theory c-r-a-p ----- Amazing)

...... - Put in a temporary set (re: used ones donated to me) to get me through the winter and indicator worked great again, started right up every time...even on the coldest mornings....

So here everything is as it should be again.

..- Glow indicator stopped working again, so I figured my temporary plugs no longer worked. ...

Yep. I'd say probably more than one of your "temporary plugs" failed here.

..- Put in new set and indicator still did not work, but glow plugs did. .Tested the indicator and found it was getting power (wires going in and coming out of it) when the key was turned to glow. I didn't really understand this, because the picture I have shows the indicator as part of the circuit. If current is flowing, it should be glowing. But the in and out wires were getting power so I let it go. So for the glow time: I just counted 15-20 seconds, which is how long it usually took to light up........

Here something is wrong. Perhaps you were unlucky and some of your new plugs were faulty Greg. Of course you couldn't really tell that ALL your plugs were working could you? (Unless you did an ohm-test on each one individually with the bus bar removed!) The other alternative scenario IMO is that perhaps these new plugs were of the wrong specification (voltage rating)? Yet 8.5V does seem to be correct according to my EPC.

..- Last week I found it was not starting right away and posted this first post, not even bothering with the glow plugs because they were practically brand new.....

Since the remaining plugs were under greater stress (receiving more voltage - and therefore drawing more current than they should) - others failed as a result of the first failing - That's my guess.

....Could they be getting too much power? .......

If you can follow my explanation above ------ YES. When one plug fails - the others are fed with higher voltage than they are meant to receive because the glow-controller "uses less of the battery's voltage - leaving more for the remaining plugs".

So I suspect your glow-controller may still be OK and that all you need is a set of quality plugs (like HKT or Nippondenso).

Except that the part I have highlighted in colour is worrying. It would have been easier for you if you had sorted out what was stopping your glow controller from glowing right then. If the resistance of your parallel-connected plug-combination doesn't match your controller (for whatever reason - faulty plugs, wrong-spec plugs, poor electrical connections, etc) --- then the glow controller won't glow correctly (even though the vehicle may still start reasonably well).

Cheers
Tom

 

[GregFrench]

Anybody know what the glow plug tips are made of? I know the elements are probably Ir or Pt, but what is the outer metal?

 

[Tapage]

Anybody know what the glow plug tips are made of? I know the elements are probably Ir or Pt, but what is the outer metal?

here is the part # that I use in my 2H ..

Just wondering if this issue are not veggie related .?

 

[lostmarbles]

here is the part # that I use in my 2H ..
Just wondering if this issue are not veggie related .?

And here are the 8.5V plugs that I think both Greg and me are using (my B engine and his 2H engine):



Yeah. I too was wondering whether high combustion temperatures could melt them. But I'm completely out-of-my-depth there. Let's see if Greg finds he has more than one "missing tip"?


PS. Tapage - You said earlier:

Mines are 8.5 .. even with bad glow plugs a healthy...........

But those PT145 plugs you've shown are rated at 10.5Volts. And interestingly - Internet-sellers often list those PT145 plugs as being the correct ones for my B engine. - But they are NOT of course.

By the way - I'm not saying the PT145 aren't correct for your vehicle. But if you're using them - They're NOT 8.5V.

 

[roscoFJ73]

here is the part # that I use in my 2H ..


Just wondering if this issue are not veggie related .?

It crossed my mind too but it would take a lot of heat to do that.
Those plugs are for a Toyoace Are they the same as a 2H?

And here are the 8.5V plugs that I think both Greg and me are using (my B engine and his 2H engine):

View attachment 247675

Yeah. I too was wondering whether high combustion temperatures could melt them. .

There would be other damage if high egts were to blame and this would also be a much more common occurence.

I think only an electrical problem could get them hot enough to melt.

 

[lostmarbles]

Anybody know what the glow plug tips are made of? I know the elements are probably Ir or Pt, but what is the outer metal?

Outer metal is magnetic and it looks like steel. Here - Take a squizz. I've just cut one open:



And here are a couple more photos:

That central electrode was able to be extracted quite easily!

Actually - I have an ulterior motive for cutting one open. I want to use the hollow glowplug shell to make an adaptor so I can apply my new cylinderleakage-tester using my glowplug holes!! (I'm not COMPLETELY insane. Well - Who's to say really. Maybe I am? )

 

[Joe Egolf]

interesting

I have never seen my glow indicator glow,yet when i glow in the am appx 20-25 seconds, my cruiser starts right up in maybe one and a half cranks and just a puff of dark smoke and runs idles well quickly.So for my 1981 ,NZ, 3b 12volt single battery engine I guess I need the glow plugs Tom uses. For the $40 to$50 bucks it will be worth it to prevent future problem i guess.I have looked at the glow indicator and it is wired and clean and my buss bar is in very good shape too.

 

[lostmarbles]

I have never seen my glow indicator glow,yet when i glow in the am appx 20-25 seconds, my cruiser starts right up in maybe one and a half cranks and just a puff of dark smoke and runs idles well quickly.So for my 1981 ,NZ, 3b 12volt single battery engine I guess I need the glow plugs Tom uses. For the $40 to$50 bucks it will be worth it to prevent future problem i guess.I have looked at the glow indicator and it is wired and clean and my buss bar is in very good shape too.

Don't rush in Joe. I wouldn't be surprised if the 8.5V are NOT what is specified for your 3B. (I'm at work now so don't have access to the EPC.)

All this stuff I'm saying is just "theorising" on my part.

But I would lift your bus bar and ohm-test all 4 plugs just to make sure none are open-circuit (- if you haven't already done so).

(I note that you've already made sure there is good electrical contact between the bus bar and EACH and EVERY plug terminal.)

 

[amaurer]

Don't rush in Joe. I wouldn't be surprised if the 8.5V are NOT what is specified for your 3B. (I'm at work now so don't have access to the EPC.)

x2. Tom and I love to try and guess what Toyota was up to with this glow system, but as usual the mystery persists.

My BJ42 uses 10.5V plugs. See attached photo. Tom and I both have NZ spec cruisers, so I guess the plug voltage you use is matched to the glow controller you have which was apparently chosen on some basis other than the country of origin.

Also my glow controller never lights up more than the top two coils, see second attached photo. It takes upwards of 30 seconds.

To show my controller as well as the time it takes to light up, I've made what has to be the most boring video on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CjibrZkcHY (EDIT: I see youtube has almost completely washed out the glowing parts, however you can see a faint glow just before i start the engine)

my cruiser starts right up in maybe one and a half cranks and just a puff of dark smoke and runs idles well quickly.

That doesn't sound bad, but with good long glow it doesn't even take 1.5 cranks for me. Here is another, older, video of my BJ42 starting. Apologies for the background noise, milling machine was running:
YouTube - 3B startup

 

[GregFrench]

The temp is no higher when using veggie. Actually it runs a little cooler. What I DID find, though, is that the veggie is more corrosive to some metals (like Cu) than diesel. If the tips are Copper, it all would make sense.

I posted in the WVO forum to see if anyone else is having this problem.

 

[Joe Egolf]

plugs and start up

OK , I will test , pull and inspect my glow plugs .while doing so I guess I can read what they Are ,ie 8.5 or 10.5 etc. Andrew , thats a fast start up.I thought mine was good but about 2x yours.and I will look hard at my glow indicator while glowing about 35 sec's???

 

[Tapage]

S. Tapage - You said earlier:



But those PT145 plugs you've shown are rated at 10.5Volts. And interestingly - Internet-sellers often list those PT145 plugs as being the correct ones for my B engine. - But they are NOT of course.

By the way - I'm not saying the PT145 aren't correct for your vehicle. But if you're using them - They're NOT 8.5V.

I need to goo and double check on mines .. swear that I'v seen 8.5 .. now I'm not sure ..

Here my olds .. but I can't determinate if they said 8.5 or 10.5V ..

 

[Tapage]

BTW glowing 35 segs .. If you ask me .. it's tooo much .. as much as 10 segs or so in my case ..

 

[lostmarbles]

....If the tips are Copper, it all would make sense. .......

I can confirm they're definitely NOT copper Greg.

Another thing Greg. - I'd avoid using ether for starting.

Here's just one thread on the topic:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/123231-2b-just-blew-up-why.html

I was wondering whether it could in fact be responsible for the tips of your glowplugs disintegrating.

I've just done a little bit of searching (Isn't MUD great for this type of research?) but perhaps you may like to continue the search and maybe find threads that are even more relevant concerning this possibility.

(I've never used ether on my B engine and don't intend to.)

 

[roscoFJ73]

BTW glowing 35 segs .. If you ask me .. it's tooo much .. as much as 10 segs or so in my case ..

x2 Mine come on for 3 seconds in summer and 6-7 secs in winter. How much do plugs cost in Panama. I got offered HKT plugs for a 1HZ for $42 a set. Half normal price

 

[roscoFJ73]

(I've never used ether on my B engine and don't intend to.)

I was looking at a can of "Start Ya Bastard" the other day and it is only 25% ether and the rest is undisclosed aromatics.
Maybe these are a bit friendlier than straight ether

 

[lostmarbles]

Hey. This thread is sure covering a heap of ground Eh?

Maybe I should clarify what my background is here. Because I don't want people to assume I'm some sort of "authority" on glow systems.

I don't have any mates living nearby who have diesel cruisers so I'm unable to compare mine with theirs at present. But I do remember driving a 3B-powered BJ42 that used to belong to a mate some decades ago. Hate to say it - But then I really envied the "extra power" and the way he could start his in almost any weather, hot or cold (but it seldom gets below 7 oC around here) without using glowplugs. In comparison, my engine lacked power, was far more "rattly" when idling, and took 20 seconds of glow to start in the morning - with glow still being needed (say about 10 or 12 seconds) even after "I'd stopped for lunch or similar" when the engine was still relatively warm.

I'm saying this, because Amaurer/Drew and Joe both have 3B powered BJ42s (stolen from NZ ). ------ And I don't remember seeing my mates BJ42 glowcontroller glowing anywhere near as brightly as mine does. -In fact - since his 3B didn't really need "glow" - whenever I drove it - I doubt I ever "glowed it" at all. (On the other hand - I suspect that Greg's 2H has an older glowsystem that is more similar to mine.)


So I have a suspicion - (and as is often the case - I could be talking ******) that you folk with your 3B got more-convenient/faster starting (no need for much glow) at the expense of getting "poorer visual-indication-of-your-glow" via the dash-mounted indicator/glowcontroller.

And I think you folk with your faster/easier starting 3B engines - got a different glow system called "superglow" where extra voltage is applied briefly to cause hotter glowplugtip temperatures. (Edit- This is apparently true only for a late-model BJ42 (eg. 1984). I now understand Amaurer's glow system isn't "superglow" and is almost identical to mine.)

So I'm dead scared of offering advice to "change the specs of glow plugs" on such engines in case you do damage to your glowcontrollers.

Henry James the 47th (Chris) has shown us in his marvellous ongoing thread that old "glow controllers" and "glow plug relays" can be both expensive AND hard/impossible to find.

And to really confuse matters (as if I'm not already confused enough) - my search of the EPC for the "ARL market" (which I am assuming covers Australia/NZ - Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here) gives the following for 12V 3B-powered BJ4# cruisers:

19850-68030 plugs for Aug 1980 to October 1982 - 6V rating!!!! (Edit - I now understand this 6V figure is erroneous in the Toyota Electronic Parts Catalogue - EPC - And that a 19850-68030 plug was/is never anything other than 8.5V rating.)


19850-68050 (substituted with 19850-68051) for Oct 1982 to October 1984 - 6V rating again!!!!
And another listing there for the European Market gives a 19850-68030 part number plug but says it has an 8.5V rating (implying that 2 plugs can have the same Toyota Part Number but differing voltage ratings - Unless the EPC has an error and has given the wrong part number for the earlier-models 6V plugs)
(Note- My 1979 BJ40 plugs are Toyota-Part-Number 19850-68030 and definitely have the 8.5V rating)

So hell - I'm just as confused as anyone else.

PS. For obvious reasons - I've been ignoring all EPC entries for BJ's with 24 Volt battery systems

If you wish to experiment with using different glow plugs - Tread carefully.I'm in the lucky position that I've owned my BJ40 for almost 30 years and still have every glowplug that has ever been fitted to it. (But I've just mutilated 2 of them - ostensibly for "research purposes" - bit like the Japanese with their whales? - no - not quite. Don't think I'll eat them.) Where was I? Oh yeah! So at least I have no doubt what the correct plugs are for MY vehicle.



Oh yeah. Another thing all this dribble was leading to ----- Was that I wanted to add my concern about the long glow-period (35 seconds). My experience - from decades ago - as I say - is that your 3B should have much SHORTER glowperiods than I do. I'm very surprised to hear of longer ones.

 

[lostmarbles]

...
Here my olds .. but I can't determinate if they said 8.5 or 10.5V ..

Hey Tapage. Are you as "age-compromised" as so many others of us here?

I can almost read your glowplug identification "stampings" from my screen miles away over here in N-e-w Z-e-e-e-l-a-n-d.

Surely with a bright light, a magnifying glass and by squinting (and perhaps rubbing with a bit of wet&dry beforehand - the plug-that-is) you MUST be able to read the voltage on those ones right there!




PS. I've recently noticed the Toyota EPC listing 19850-60030 plugs as being available with both 8.5V and 6V "voltage ratings". (Edit 31 July - I now believe the 6V figure is an "EPC error".) So on this basis - It won't surprise me now if we find HKT 145 plugs come with both 8.5V and 10.5V ratings. (The whole glow plug system seems to be designed to confuse us all.)

 

[amaurer]

\Oh yeah. Another thing all this dribble was leading to ----- Was that I wanted to add my concern about the long glow-period (35 seconds). My experience - from decades ago - as I say - is that your 3B should have much SHORTER glowperiods than I do. I'm very surprised to hear of longer ones.

Mine will start as easily after 10 seconds of glow as it does after the 35 it takes to make the controller light up.

The system is downright batty, from controllers that take to long to light to, to relays with phantom terminals... seriously, someone was asleep when the designed this thing.

 

[GregFrench]

I can confirm they're definitely NOT copper Greg.

Another thing Greg. - I'd avoid using ether for starting.

Here's just one thread on the topic:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/123231-2b-just-blew-up-why.html

I was wondering whether it could in fact be responsible for the tips of your glowplugs disintegrating.

I've just done a little bit of searching (Isn't MUD great for this type of research?) but perhaps you may like to continue the search and maybe find threads that are even more relevant concerning this possibility.

(I've never used ether on my B engine and don't intend to.)

I know it is bad. I only use it as a last resort when the battery is almost dead from trying to crank the engine for so long, and then only half a squirt or so at the air intake instead of down the TB throat.

This doesn't happen very often, so it is unlikely that it caused the plugs to disintegrate.

Can't wait to get home so I can pull the rest to see how the rest of them look.