No Start Help 1982 FJ45 (2 Viewers)

[bdsmitty88]

Just measured a few different ground resistances on the vehicle. It seems like everything is well grounded - all measured with points closed.

1. Bat (-) to block = .2 - .4 ohms
2. Bat (-) to frame = .2 - .4 ohms
3. Bat (-) to dizzy body = .4 - .7 ohms
4. Bat (-) to dizzy post = .5 ohms
5. Bat (-) to dizzy points plate plate = .3 - .7 ohms

They shouldn't be sparking, and certainly not arcing to ground.
If your condenser is in good condition, that doesn't leave many things to try.

You said that your voltmeter measures a good ground at the points plate and the post when closed.

What do you mean by that exactly? You measured voltage between the battery negative terminal to those places??

Switch your meter over to resistance/ohms and measure the resistance between the post and the battery negative terminal when points closed. Also measure from the points plate to battery ground.

Sounds like you might have a poor ground connection at the dizzy

.

 

[45Dougal]

Just measured a few different ground resistances on the vehicle. It seems like everything is well grounded - all measured with points closed.

1. Bat (-) to block = .2 - .4 ohms
2. Bat (-) to frame = .2 - .4 ohms
3. Bat (-) to dizzy body = .4 - .7 ohms
4. Bat (-) to dizzy post = .5 ohms
5. Bat (-) to dizzy points plate plate = .3 - .7 ohms



.

So the post measured lower than the points plate because the coil was still connected I assume so everything sounds normal.
We don't know the resistance across the points themselves though.
Sounds like you have a good ground at the points plate at least.
You already tried replacing the 12V wire to the coil so that seems to be OK.
You do get a spark when you ground the points with the screwdriver though. This suggests that the problem is high resistance in the points themselves (but they are new and clean and assumed to be good).

If you add a short wire to the post, and another short wire to the points plate, then you should get a spark at the secondary when you tap then together (points open obv).

If you do, then it seems like your points are not closing to a dead short for some reason.

If you don't, then maybe your points are somehow shorting to ground.

Got a couple of good close photos of your points?

 

[bdsmitty88]

So the post measured lower than the points plate because the coil was still connected I assume so everything sounds normal.
We don't know the resistance across the points themselves though.
Sounds like you have a good ground at the points plate at least.
You already tried replacing the 12V wire to the coil so that seems to be OK.
You do get a spark when you ground the points with the screwdriver though. This suggests that the problem is high resistance in the points themselves (but they are new and clean and assumed to be good).

If you add a short wire to the post, and another short wire to the points plate, then you should get a spark at the secondary when you tap then together (points open obv).

If you do, then it seems like your points are not closing to a dead short for some reason.

If you don't, then maybe your points are somehow shorting to ground.

Got a couple of good close photos of your points?

Quick Q....I keep coming back to this ignition wire (small black / yellow). It's behavior seems strange to me still, but maybe I just am not understanding something. Before I reasoned that the confusion with this wire was the black / yellow wire's connection to the grounded fuel cutoff solenoid. I was checking the resistance between the black / yellow wire coming from the firewall into the plug that goes into the regulator and multiple different grounds (+ battery disconnected and ignition to on) and was getting 5.5 ohms. I remembered the solenoid, and disconnected it. I checked the resistance at the solenoid + wire (black and yellow) and ground and got 5.5 ohms. With ignition off, I get about 6 ohms at each.

I connected the battery + terminal to get power to the system. With ignition off, I now get 6 ohms between black / yellow and ground. When i turn the ignition on, I get Open Circuit as expected. When I turn the ignition off and check black / yellow to ground again, It starts at 6.6 ohms and slowly drops to 6 ohms.

Do I have a short to ground somewhere?

I'm outside atm and have bad wifi connection. I'll upload pics of the points when I get inside. However, when I measured the resistance across the points I get .2 ohms...which is the internal resistance of my multimeter, so essentially zero.

EDIT...pics of points

 

[aktundra]

You guys are playing chess, and it seems I play checkers. I don’t understand most of this thread, but throw this out if it hasn’t been checked, because it only takes a second to check. I had hesitation under heavy throttle, idle was fine. (Nowhere near the complicated problems on this thread)

Turns out I had debris packed into the input fuel line before the fuel filter, only pulled hard enough to block fuel, when fuel pump was really working. Pulled the line off, & could see obstructions.

 

[45Dougal]

Quick Q....I keep coming back to this ignition wire (small black / yellow). It's behavior seems strange to me still, but maybe I just am not understanding something. Before I reasoned that the confusion with this wire was the black / yellow wire's connection to the grounded fuel cutoff solenoid. I was checking the resistance between the black / yellow wire coming from the firewall into the plug that goes into the regulator and multiple different grounds (+ battery disconnected and ignition to on) and was getting 5.5 ohms. I remembered the solenoid, and disconnected it. I checked the resistance at the solenoid + wire (black and yellow) and ground and got 5.5 ohms. With ignition off, I get about 6 ohms at each.

I connected the battery + terminal to get power to the system. With ignition off, I now get 6 ohms between black / yellow and ground. When i turn the ignition on, I get Open Circuit as expected. When I turn the ignition off and check black / yellow to ground again, It starts at 6.6 ohms and slowly drops to 6 ohms.

Do I have a short to ground somewhere?

I'm outside atm and have bad wifi connection. I'll upload pics of the points when I get inside. However, when I measured the resistance across the points I get .2 ohms...which is the internal resistance of my multimeter, so essentially zero.

EDIT...pics of points
View attachment 3335550
View attachment 3335551
View attachment 3335552

They look a bit frazzled, are they new?? They look like they're getting hot.

Do they close nicely face to face?

0.2 ohms in your hand sounds ok (off the truck) but that's at very low current of course.

What if you put some current behind that? Replace the coil with a lamp bulb for example - does it flash when you turn the engine or do the points just get hot?

Give them a good sandpapering or better still replace with new.

The crimped wire connection also looks a bit furry - has the wire been replaced?? Maybe worth running the soldering iron into it

 

[firefighterjed]

Any progress?

 

[bdsmitty88]

They look a bit frazzled, are they new?? They look like they're getting hot.

Do they close nicely face to face?

0.2 ohms in your hand sounds ok (off the truck) but that's at very low current of course.

What if you put some current behind that? Replace the coil with a lamp bulb for example - does it flash when you turn the engine or do the points just get hot?

Give them a good sandpapering or better still replace with new.

The crimped wire connection also looks a bit furry - has the wire been replaced?? Maybe worth running the soldering iron into it

Any progress?

Unfortunately, no. I've done more testing, but nothing is makes sense or standing out.

On friday, I decided to "bench test" the points. I removed the points from the distributor and mounted them to a wood block, basically using them as a switch and isolating its ground. I tried the following every possible combination of grounds (to coil and points) and hot lead to the coil (using switched ignition power and direct to battery +).

1. I directly connected the coil - to the points cable (white cable), still keeping the condenser wired in parallel. In this configuration, I tried grounding to the battery, engine block, frame, cabled to distributor housing, and bolted to distributor housing - with both coil + to battery + and to switched ignition. I was using the spark strength tester that I have mentioned previously. In all configurations, results were the same. There was little to no change in spark strength, but the spark strength still seems low to me. The tester indicated less than 20KV. Everything I've read said spark is typically 30-40KV. I tried the spark tester on two other, more modern, vehicles and got 35+KV.

2. I repeated all of the same tests as in (1) but took the points out of the equation and used the touch and go wires as the switch. Spark strength was the same.

2. I then bolted the points back into the distributor and checked for spark with cranking the engine. I tried this test, as well, in all possible configurations: coil - through dizzy post, coil - directly to white points cable, extra ground wire to ground the points plate to the block / frame, extra ground wire to ground dizzy spring plates to block / frame, all tests with both + battery power and ignition power. I get almost no spark from the tester when using the engine cranking to actuate the points...I certainly don't get the spark at the 20KV I was getting when manually actuating. At this point, I was starting to suspect maybe the battery was getting weak and the starter was drawing too much current from the weak battery.

3. So, I decided to quit for the night and waited overnight for a fully charged battery (battery is only 3 months old, fyi). I hooked everything up and repeated all of the same tests and all results were basically the same (it actually seemed like spark was slightly weaker...???). I tried cranking the engine to get spark, both with ignition power and battery + power to the coil and...yep, same result. I couldn't get a noticeable spark, unless maybe if I adjusted the spark gap tester down to 10KV, or less. Even then, it's inconsistent. <10KV is like super small engine territory (like small gas lawn tools).

NEXT STEPS
The only other test I have left in my bag is to take the points out of the equation again and replace them with a small micro-switch. This micro-switch will better mimic the action of a healthy set of points. The wire "touch and go" technique works, but is a bit inadequate and doesn't fully mimic the switch action. I'll hook up the switch in place of the points and run all the same tests: different power sources, different grounds, etc. If the spark is stronger, I'll replace the points and see what happens. If spark is the same...I'm a bit lost.

If the results are the same with the micro switch, I only see two possibilities:
1. The 20KV spark from the bench testing is actually adequate and there is something going on with the power to the coil or grounding while the starter is cranking. However, if this was the case, I would have expected the truck to remain running in the past when I was finally able to get it started.
2. There is something else going on in the wiring, when ignition on, that is somehow effecting the spark strength that I am just not seeing...even though I seem to be getting enough voltage to the coil + from ignition when switched on (I was getting between 11.9V and 12V with a fully charged battery that directly read 12.7V).

CHANGES SINCE LAST WEEK
1. I redid all of grounds last week, per Coolerman's recommendations. I used overkill wiring size, replaced the battery terminals, added extra ground straps to a bunch of critical locations and all ground paths show negligible resistance (between 0 and .2 ohms).
2. I started to second guess my stereo and it's power draw with ignition on. I only read a few mA draw when ignition was off (so it isn't shorting anywhere), but I thought I would disconnect it just in case...remember my arcing in the ignition switch?? I noticed no observable difference in spark strength with it totally disconnected from power. Keep in mind that the stereo was the very first thing I did to the truck when I got it and drove it fine for 5 months before the issues started.
3. I traced the 'always on' wire circuit (large white / blue wire) and it all seems to be connected properly. I was wondering if there was a minor short somewhere in this circuit since this wire connects to so many things (ignition, alternator, regulator, fuse panel, not to mention all the times it splits). I found no inconsistencies in resistance anywhere and it all appears to be connecting properly.


QUESTIONS
1. Can someone remove their plastic steering column shrouds and observe if they have an arc inside the ignition switch when switching from Ignition On to Off? I assumed this arc had something to do with the stereo power draw to the amp when turning the ignition on. However, with the entirety of the stereo removed, the arc is still present. It's hard to tell just how bad it is, or if it's even a problem. If I remove the ignition switch from the steering column and then turn the key, I don't see the arc. This could just be because it's not as easy to see when the light isn't reflecting off the metal interior of the steering column where the ignition switch mounts. It's all plastic...doesn't seem possible that it is shorting anywhere in the column. Regardless, ignition behaves the same with it out of the column versus mounted in the column. Could somebody please check their ignition switch to see if it behaves this way?
2. Does anyone know what I might be overlooking in the wiring? I'm truly stumped. Everything seems appropriate and I'm nearly certain that nothing in the wiring has changed since I purchased the truck (aside from cleaning up bad connections).
3. I keep coming back to the Ignition wire circuit and a possible short. Could somebody measure the voltage they get at the coil + with ignition on? Also could somebody check for any resistance (continuity) anomalies between the black/yellow wire and the positive circuit and also the ground circuit?

Thanks. Even though the points seem fine and are nearly new, I just ordered another set anyway. I still don't think it is the problem but I wanted to have them on hand just in case.

 

[Aussie Alaskan]

My $0.02 worth. So not much...

I think you've definitely narrowed this down to an ignition issue. The ignition system only has a few parts to it and so hopefully you'll find the issue with enough grinding away at it.

If you aren't getting a hot enough spark at the plugs (should be blueish and jump upwards of 1/4" to ground) I've never used a spark tester so I cannot speak to what you are seeing with it. Anyways, the only thing that provides a high voltage spark is the coil. So, if you are getting weak spark id seriously look at a new coil, they are cheap and the new ones today are internally resisted, allowing you to bypass the external resistor. (One less piece of the ignition system to troubleshoot

Now, if you are getting intermittent spark. There is only one thing that triggers the coil. The distributor.
Test:
Manually rotate your engine to where the protrusion on the dissy shaft is almost contacting the arm of the points, then use the advance in your dissy to hand turn the dissy rotor/shaft and contact the arm and break the circuit. At the same time use the HT lead from your coil and plug a spark plug in it or a screwdriver and hold it 1/4" from the ground terminal of your battery. When you manually break the dissy circuit you should see a strong spark between your HT lead and the ground terminal.

If your points work to break the circuit everytime they rotate, then they should fire the coil everytime. If your coil is good, it should fire a high voltage spark everytime as well.

If you don't get spark manually like I tested above then it's either your coil, the HT lead, or the "signal" wires from dissy to coil. Or it could be that your dissy isn't grounded. Bypass the wiring in your wiring harness and go directly from coil to dissy verifying that you aren't dealing with a short somewhere in the harness. Run a small ground straight to the dissy for peace of mind.

My coil, gets 12v in run and start since it's internally resisted without an ignitor.

 

[bdsmitty88]

My $0.02 worth. So not much...

I think you've definitely narrowed this down to an ignition issue. The ignition system only has a few parts to it and so hopefully you'll find the issue with enough grinding away at it.

If you aren't getting a hot enough spark at the plugs (should be blueish and jump upwards of 1/4" to ground) I've never used a spark tester so I cannot speak to what you are seeing with it. Anyways, the only thing that provides a high voltage spark is the coil. So, if you are getting weak spark id seriously look at a new coil, they are cheap and the new ones today are internally resisted, allowing you to bypass the external resistor. (One less piece of the ignition system to troubleshoot

Now, if you are getting intermittent spark. There is only one thing that triggers the coil. The distributor.
Test:
Manually rotate your engine to where the protrusion on the dissy shaft is almost contacting the arm of the points, then use the advance in your dissy to hand turn the dissy rotor/shaft and contact the arm and break the circuit. At the same time use the HT lead from your coil and plug a spark plug in it or a screwdriver and hold it 1/4" from the ground terminal of your battery. When you manually break the dissy circuit you should see a strong spark between your HT lead and the ground terminal.

If your points work to break the circuit everytime they rotate, then they should fire the coil everytime. If your coil is good, it should fire a high voltage spark everytime as well.

If you don't get spark manually like I tested above then it's either your coil, the HT lead, or the "signal" wires from dissy to coil. Or it could be that your dissy isn't grounded. Bypass the wiring in your wiring harness and go directly from coil to dissy verifying that you aren't dealing with a short somewhere in the harness. Run a small ground straight to the dissy for peace of mind.

My coil, gets 12v in run and start since it's internally resisted without an ignitor.

The first thing I replaced was the coil. At this point I have 3 new ones (1 oem replacement and 2 cheap amazon). All perform the same, resistances in check, same spark, etc.

The problem is definitely weak spark, not inconsistent spark. All grounds are good on the distributor. If you read through my last post, I have grounded the dizzy, points, every combination of the components directly to the vehicle as to bypass the dizzy ground, itself (even though the dizzy grounds test great, as well).

Do you get 100% battery voltage at the coil + when ignition on? Like, no drop at all?

 

[Aussie Alaskan]

The first thing I replaced was the coil. At this point I have 3 new ones (1 oem replacement and 2 cheap amazon). All perform the same, resistances in check, same spark, etc.

The problem is definitely weak spark, not inconsistent spark. All grounds are good on the distributor. If you read through my last post, I have grounded the dizzy, points, every combination of the components directly to the vehicle as to bypass the dizzy ground, itself (even though the dizzy grounds test great, as well).

Do you get 100% battery voltage at the coil + when ignition on? Like, no drop at all?

Yes. I get what amounts to 100% battery voltage at the coil positive post when on and starting.

So if it's definitely a weak spark. And the coil(s) are suspected of being good. Have you tested your spark plug wires? Are they within spec for resistance?

The only thing between your coil and the plugs are the wires and rotor.

Could also be that you aren't getting enough voltage to your coil, but you said that you wired it directly to the battery so I'm guessing it's good.

 

[45Dougal]

My $0.02 worth. So not much...

I think you've definitely narrowed this down to an ignition issue. The ignition system only has a few parts to it and so hopefully you'll find the issue with enough grinding away at it.

If you aren't getting a hot enough spark at the plugs (should be blueish and jump upwards of 1/4" to ground) I've never used a spark tester so I cannot speak to what you are seeing with it. Anyways, the only thing that provides a high voltage spark is the coil. So, if you are getting weak spark id seriously look at a new coil, they are cheap and the new ones today are internally resisted, allowing you to bypass the external resistor. (One less piece of the ignition system to troubleshoot

Now, if you are getting intermittent spark. There is only one thing that triggers the coil. The distributor.
Test:
Manually rotate your engine to where the protrusion on the dissy shaft is almost contacting the arm of the points, then use the advance in your dissy to hand turn the dissy rotor/shaft and contact the arm and break the circuit. At the same time use the HT lead from your coil and plug a spark plug in it or a screwdriver and hold it 1/4" from the ground terminal of your battery. When you manually break the dissy circuit you should see a strong spark between your HT lead and the ground terminal.

If your points work to break the circuit everytime they rotate, then they should fire the coil everytime. If your coil is good, it should fire a high voltage spark everytime as well.

If you don't get spark manually like I tested above then it's either your coil, the HT lead, or the "signal" wires from dissy to coil. Or it could be that your dissy isn't grounded. Bypass the wiring in your wiring harness and go directly from coil to dissy verifying that you aren't dealing with a short somewhere in the harness. Run a small ground straight to the dissy for peace of mind.

My coil, gets 12v in run and start since it's internally resisted without an ignitor.

I think that's a good test in that it duplicates your bench test identically except that you open the points using the cam (without putting a cranking load on the battery, and without interfering with a screwdriver in the dizzy).

Since you demonstrated a 20kv spark on the bench (which should be enough i think), you should be able to replicate this on the truck. Since you can't do that, it's a big red flag - why can't you? What changed?

The big difference I see between your tests is that when testing on the truck, you were cranking the starter which places a huge drain on the battery.

You mentioned that it wouldn't keep running even when you did get it started, but wasn't this before the whole dizzy post shorting issue was resolved?

My money is on the starter motor needing an overhaul.

Your starter isn't word through the fusible link or something is it?

 

[Aussie Alaskan]

Good point @45Dougal. Verify positive wiring from battery to starter.

You should also test the battery itself. Put a multimeter on it and then crank the engine and watch the reading. Does it drop down below 11V? It shouldn't. If it drops below 10V then you've almost certainly got a weak battery which cannot supply enough volts to crank and fire the coil simultaneously. It will do one or the other, but not both at the same time. Give it a go and report back.

Good luck! I know these things are frustrating!!!!!

 

[bdsmitty88]

Late night update......She's Running!

I cleaned up every wiring connector I could put eyes on today with some electrical parts cleaner. I repeated the bench test, but with points mounted in Dizzy, and was getting the same 20KV spark. I decided to check the spark with the starter cranking the distributor. I set the points gap and cranked the starter...I got the same 20KV spark this time, consistently. I hooked everything up and the truck fired up instantly and sounded fantastic. I set the idle on my newly rebuilt carb and got a smooth idle at 650 RPM. I did a couple of up and down runs in the driveway and it felt nice and responsive.

I'm going to drive it a bit more this week to make sure everything is truly remedied. I'm super grateful that it seems to be running now, although a touch frustrated that I can't put my finger on the exact issue that was the main culprit. In the end, it's possible that I had some minor electrical gremlins that I ended up cleaning up. Between that and the new-ish points, re-gapped, dizzy ground post isolation, etc., that fixed the last of the issues that were causing my no-start / quick stall.

I think I became sidetracked / too focused on the 20KV spark thing, chasing that too much when things might have been fine.

My next steps will be to re-connect the stereo system and make sure that doesn't change the start performance. I'll also be keeping an eye on how quickly it starts cold, warm, etc. Once it's clear that things are running consistently, I'll do some vacuum tests, set the dwell, timing, etc. to really dial things in.

Anyway, she ran for at least 10 minutes today and sounded great. Hopefully it's just fine tuning things I never had the chance to focus on now and getting her running 100%.

 

[Aussie Alaskan]

Awesome update @bdsmitty88 !!!!
Glad you got it up and running. Electrical gremlins are the worst!

 

[firefighterjed]

dude, what a relief!!!!
Well done

 

[45Dougal]

Great to hear you got there in the end!
That moment when it finally bursts into life is always a buzz!
You'll have it purring all summer now with a bit of luck

 

[Blue77FJ40]

Now that it's running, check out OTTRAM's (Ryan) video of the drop down method for tuning the carb, setting the idle mixture.

 

[bdsmitty88]

Now that it's running, check out OTTRAM's (Ryan) video of the drop down method for tuning the carb, setting the idle mixture.

Already dialed her in

 

[bdsmitty88]

Took her for a long test drive today and she ran great! Fired up cold this morning, no choke, with about 3 seconds of cranking. After warming up she fired up in like half a second and quickly came to a consistent idle. I have the stereo all hooked up as well. I highly doubt this was ever part of the problem, since I drove it for months hooked up, but I'll keep my eye on the battery voltage and time it takes to start up over the next month.

I actually just came across a nearly identical truck (Venezuelan, mustard, 1980s FJ45) on BAT. It was nice to take a look at another truck, as much as I could see in the pictures, and look for differences in wiring. There are a few differences that I can see but not much. The only two I really noticed was this truck has the condenser grounded to the regulator, with the + connecting in parallel to the ignition on wire (small yellow/black). It is my understanding that this is just to absorb radio noise. I don't really have that problem since mine is powered directly by the battery and only taps into ignition for a remote on signal. Plus, my truck has a condenser on the alternator, which I think would make the regulator condenser a bit redundant. The other difference is a wire coming from the harness and grounding to the bolt on the outside of the distributor housing where external condensers are typically mounted. I assume this is just an additional ground path. I might try to add this to mine...can't hurt.

1981 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ45 Pickup

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Thanks, everyone, for all the help. This was much more confusing than it should have been, but now I feel like I know the truck inside and out pretty well, so any future troubleshooting should be a lot smoother.

 

[sterling]

Well done! This thread deserves more pics after this accomplishment.

When looking for more SA cruiser info, the before restoration pics on the fj companys site was helpful. Plenty of pics for each model.

1981 G45 - Medium Blue - FJ45-299902

View details of this 1981 Medium Blue G45. Highlights include Frame off restoration by The FJ Company, Original 2F engine and Original 4-speed Manual. Want an FJ Land Cruiser? Call The FJ Company today!

www.fj.co