No Start Help 1982 FJ45 (1 Viewer)

[bdsmitty88]

The voltages sound about right to me, but the main point is whether you consistently have a strong spark?
I see someone suggested bypassing the ignition switch and connecting the coil+ directly to the battery+; presumably that didn't help, indicating that the positive feed is not the problem.
From the video there are two things that jump out - the condenser capacitor is very scrunched up in there, and doesn't look comfortable - is it connected correctly, or interfering with anything? I see this is sometimes relocated on the outside of the dizzy.
Secondly, I can just about see a blue terminal on the switched contact - is this a good solid connection to the coil?
Did I miss a picture of the new coil installation (presumably its well grounded)?
All of this is irrelevant if you have a good steady spark anyway.
If you've been driving around on full choke for a while then I'd expect the head to be a bit coked up. Hard to check without removing the head though.
When it runs (badly), are all pots running sporadically or are one or two pots running well and the rest are not firing at all? (carefully feel each exhaust manifold before it's been running too long).
And finally have you checked your valve clearances?

That fact that its been raining and now your problem got worse, indicates an ignition problem, but maybe just luck of the draw.

Regarding the carb threading issue - how about tapping it out to a larger size and fitting a short adapter so you don't need to rework your fuel line?

Thanks for the reply. I didn't try directly wiring the coil to the battery since it was getting good, consistent voltage when off and when running. Is it still worth trying?

My dizzy had the internal condenser originally. It is just kind of crammed in there by nature. I don't think it could be interfering with anything, but I'll double check. Its only connections are the single wire coming from it, which I know is connected properly. A capacitor is just a one way thing, right? Like, it doesn't need separate grounding? The condenser is just built on a tab bracket, then that tab bracket connects to a bolt on the dizzy housing.

With regards to the "blue terminal", I assume you are talking about the wire coming off the outside of the dizzy? It is my understanding that this is the ground wire going from the distributor to the coil. I checked between the battery + and this connection and got good voltage, so I assume it is well grounded.

As for the coil, it is my understanding that the only ground for it is to the (-) going to the distributor. Both the positive lead and negative lead are connected well. I assume if something was connected wrong here, I wouldn't be able to read proper voltage at the coil + when switched on and between the battery + and coil - when switched off.

It's genuinely impossible to tell, at least for me, if all cylinders are firing sporadically or just a few. The idle is just too rough, low, and inconsistent to truly tell if a few cyls are misfiring or all of them. To me, it sounds like all of them. I would expect a noticeable frequency to the misfiring if it was just one or two, but it just sounds like the entire engine is idling low and sputtering. I connected a spark plug, inline, glow tester to each plug and they all behave about the same. The tester flashes, but inconsistently (idk how reliable these things glow on a smooth running engine). I also tried unplugging the high tension lead from each plug - disconnecting one, listening for changes, reconnecting it, moving on to the next. There was no noticeable change to the engine sound, idle, etc. when disconnecting any of the wires. The only change is that maaaaybe the engine would stall quicker if one was disconnected and left disconnected.

I haven't removed the valve cover or anything like that. I'm hoping to do that as a last possible option...trying to rule out everything before I do that. I probably will just take it to a shop at that point, as this is just starting to cut into my work time a bit too much. I would just prefer to have some confidence in what I have checked / ruled out before doing so...and I'm stubborn and hate not fixing things myself.

As for the carb...I'm running with the chinese carb for now, but ordered some time serts and a tap to repair the OEM carb fuel inlet.

Thanks!

 

[Blue77FJ40]

That rotor tip looks off. Have you tried another rotor? Also, how do the contacts inside the distributor cap look? Are they smooth, or perhaps they are gouged and are scoring the rotor tip?

 

[schuy2147]

I'm following along hoping you find the solution to this problem and really wishing I could be more help. This is more of a learning thread for me than anything. But, one thing that came to mind, and this could be totally way off course, but considering all of your tests on all the basic systems have basically checked out, is there a possibility the woodruff key on the cam gear may have broke or the gear itself may be slipping? Crazy thought but the symptoms make me think the engine is severely out of time.

 

[jembourbe]

I know this is stating the obvious, but your post about the behavior of the timing light (when clipped onto the spark plug wires) shows that there is a serious spark delivery problem that will cause your engine to not run properly. You are going to have to get a consistent spark before you can do anything else. Figure that out first.


This won't matter until you have a consistent spark, but to confirm the engine is properly timed to the compression cycle, put the engine at top dead center (with the rotor pointing to the distributor cap terminal for cylinder 1). Then remove the valve cover and look at the cylinder #1 valves. They should be closed, meaning they are fully relaxed. The rocker tips over the valve stems should be all the way up.

 

[bdsmitty88]

That rotor tip looks off. Have you tried another rotor? Also, how do the contacts inside the distributor cap look? Are they smooth, or perhaps they are gouged and are scoring the rotor tip?

I haven't tried another rotor, but my problems started before replacing the rotor. I have no idea why the coating on the tip is applied the way it is. I've seen some coated, some uncoated, but this is the first one I've seen coated partially like this. The fact that it's coated, partially, in different directions top and bottom leads me to believe it's intentional...maybe trying to slow the initial spark discharge to make it stronger when the rotor is in closest contact.

The distributor cap is new. I also tried cleaning the old one first...all symptoms the same.

 

[bdsmitty88]

I'm following along hoping you find the solution to this problem and really wishing I could be more help. This is more of a learning thread for me than anything. But, one thing that came to mind, and this could be totally way off course, but considering all of your tests on all the basic systems have basically checked out, is there a possibility the woodruff key on the cam gear may have broke or the gear itself may be slipping? Crazy thought but the symptoms make me think the engine is severely out of time.

Honestly, no idea. Never even heard of this key, but makes sense. Hoping someone with more experience could chime in there. I don't have the time to dive so deep into the engine, so at that point I would take it in somewhere.

 

[bdsmitty88]

I know this is stating the obvious, but your post about the behavior of the timing light (when clipped onto the spark plug wires) shows that there is a serious spark delivery problem that will cause your engine to not run properly. You are going to have to get a consistent spark before you can do anything else. Figure that out first.


This won't matter until you have a consistent spark, but to confirm the engine is properly timed to the compression cycle, put the engine at top dead center (with the rotor pointing to the distributor cap terminal for cylinder 1). Then remove the valve cover and look at the cylinder #1 valves. They should be closed, meaning they are fully relaxed. The rocker tips over the valve stems should be all the way up.

I guess my problem with the "strong spark" theory is I don't know what else, or how, to check at this point. If you read back through the entire thread, aside from possible misfires, my tests would suggest I am getting good spark. I'm not saying it's perfect, or optimal, but I just don't know what to check at the moment that would confirm a weak spark. My theory for a while was weak spark...but I just can't find anything that confirms this. Without a crazy fancy multimeter, how would you accurately quantify "strong spark"? Ever tried one of these?

Amazon product ASIN B06X9RC3PF
I have a more advanced multi-meter arriving today to check dwell on the distributor. Hopefully I can at least rule out any issues with the points gap here.

I have previously confirmed relative alignment, as best I can with eyes, of my distributor rotor with appropriate plug wire, at appropriate BB location. What I haven't for sure done is confirm this was on the compression cycle of cyl 1. However, how in the hell would my engine have been running for a few months fine, even starting at all, if I was igniting on the exhaust stroke? Regardless, I am planning to re-check for my sanity. I was thinking of unplugging all spark plugs, attaching my compression gauge to plug hole 1 then rotating the crank til I see the BB, rotor lines up to wire 1 (pointing in general direction as specified in FSM), and verify that I am reading compression on the gauge...does that make sense? I've seen people to the "thumb over the hole" trick to feel for compression but this seems archaic, given that I have a gauge.

As for the valves, I'm really hoping not to dive that deep into the engine myself if I don't have to. Perhaps, I will, but I would prefer to do as many tests as I can before approaching that. I like tinkering, and I love a challenge, but this truck is really starting to cut into my work life (self employed prioritization FTW!). How difficult is it and how long (appx) to take the valve cover off and expose the valves / rockers? It varies so much between vehicles. I've done it on one vehicle where it took 20 minutes and on something like my BMW E30, which you'd think would be simple, but it takes a day.

Thanks for the replies. I know it's hard to re-read the whole thread and make sense of what all I have checked, but if you have questions, just type them out in bullet form and I'll reply! I'm sure folks staring at all this text is overwhelming...speaking from the perspective of someone who has read about 2-3 hours a day of MUD forums over the last week.

 

[jembourbe]

I guess my problem with the "strong spark" theory is I don't know what else, or how, to check at this point. If you read back through the entire thread, aside from possible misfires, my tests would suggest I am getting good spark. I'm not saying it's perfect, or optimal, but I just don't know what to check at the moment that would confirm a weak spark. My theory for a while was weak spark...but I just can't find anything that confirms this. Without a crazy fancy multimeter, how would you accurately quantify "strong spark"? Ever tried one of these?

...

You said the timing light wasn't flashing regularly when hooked up to a plug wire. (which is also consistent with you saying there wasn't much difference in how it ran when you pulled-off plug wires). That has nothing to do with the strength of your spark. If the plug isn't firing every single time it is supposed to, or not at the right time, the engine will not run well.

 

[bdsmitty88]

You said the timing light wasn't flashing regularly when hooked up to a plug wire. (which is also consistent with you saying there wasn't much difference in how it ran when you pulled-off plug wires). That has nothing to do with the strength of your spark. If the plug isn't firing every single time it is supposed to, or not at the right time, the engine will not run well.

Totally understand. I thought you were suggesting spark strength, implied as Voltage, from the pre-dizzy circuit. I definitely consider adequate strength of voltage and the timing / optimal delivery of that spark from the dizzy to be separate things.

I was only suggesting that the tests I've run seem to suggest: my ignition coil is in working order and wired correctly, and is being delivered adequate voltage to then deliver correct voltage to the distributor. If you know of other tests to check "strength" of spark at any point in the circuit...I am all ears. Like, if there was an FSM spec for voltage at the plug and I had a tool capable of reading that crazy high voltage. I feel like that would rule out a lot.

The only other thing I can think of at the moment is using a dwell meter to make sure the dwell is reading appropriately. If that is correct, and the point gap is correct, then along with the rest of the dizzy parts, cables, plugs, etc. being new, I could assume that the ignition circuit / voltage up to the spark plug is ample.

Now, whether that is timed to the engine position appropriately, or the dizzy is mechanically advancing correctly, or there is for sure no slippage in the dizzy gears remains to be confirmed. As for the misfire...whether the misfiring is being caused ignition/engine alignment, vacuum problems, or some other problem also is unknown.

Just gotta wait for a break in rainy days here, and hopefully the dwell meter arriving, and I can get back on it with dwell, TDC alignment and vacuum tests.

 

[45Dougal]

The HT side of the coil grounds via the clamp - I assume you have a solid ground to the shell of the coil?

When its running, what happens when you suck on the vacuum advance?

It does sound like your timing could be out, but it's hard to see how it was then running before. Just scribe a line on your dizzy so you know where you started and then loosen the bolt and twist it around while it's running - you'll soon find if this makes it better or worse!

 

[45Dougal]

Thanks for the reply. I didn't try directly wiring the coil to the battery since it was getting good, consistent voltage when off and when running. Is it still worth trying?

My dizzy had the internal condenser originally. It is just kind of crammed in there by nature. I don't think it could be interfering with anything, but I'll double check. Its only connections are the single wire coming from it, which I know is connected properly. A capacitor is just a one way thing, right? Like, it doesn't need separate grounding? The condenser is just built on a tab bracket, then that tab bracket connects to a bolt on the dizzy housing.

With regards to the "blue terminal", I assume you are talking about the wire coming off the outside of the dizzy? It is my understanding that this is the ground wire going from the distributor to the coil. I checked between the battery + and this connection and got good voltage, so I assume it is well grounded.

As for the coil, it is my understanding that the only ground for it is to the (-) going to the distributor. Both the positive lead and negative lead are connected well. I assume if something was connected wrong here, I wouldn't be able to read proper voltage at the coil + when switched on and between the battery + and coil - when switched off.

It's genuinely impossible to tell, at least for me, if all cylinders are firing sporadically or just a few. The idle is just too rough, low, and inconsistent to truly tell if a few cyls are misfiring or all of them. To me, it sounds like all of them. I would expect a noticeable frequency to the misfiring if it was just one or two, but it just sounds like the entire engine is idling low and sputtering. I connected a spark plug, inline, glow tester to each plug and they all behave about the same. The tester flashes, but inconsistently (idk how reliable these things glow on a smooth running engine). I also tried unplugging the high tension lead from each plug - disconnecting one, listening for changes, reconnecting it, moving on to the next. There was no noticeable change to the engine sound, idle, etc. when disconnecting any of the wires. The only change is that maaaaybe the engine would stall quicker if one was disconnected and left disconnected.

I haven't removed the valve cover or anything like that. I'm hoping to do that as a last possible option...trying to rule out everything before I do that. I probably will just take it to a shop at that point, as this is just starting to cut into my work time a bit too much. I would just prefer to have some confidence in what I have checked / ruled out before doing so...and I'm stubborn and hate not fixing things myself.

As for the carb...I'm running with the chinese carb for now, but ordered some time serts and a tap to repair the OEM carb fuel inlet.

Thanks!

Yes, it's worth running that positive wire because your problem could be caused by an intermittent supply from the ignition switch.
Bypass the ignition switch and you remove that very likely possible cause from the equation.
Although you might read 12v (dc) when you test it, it might breakdown under transient loading.

The condenser has two connections; the wire is one, and the case is the other. If the points aren't sparking when they open and close (look with the dizzy cap off) then the condenser is probably working fine.

 

[bdsmitty88]

Ok...I'm making progress, but still quite confused about a few things. There is a silly amount of misinformation on this forum and others about ignition coils. Toyota certainly doesn't help its case with reusing parts, in different variations, so often. I'll start with what I did today and where I'm at, then try to end it with a few questions that I just can't figure out.

After some reading last night and some testing today, I'm nearly 100% certain my problem is electrical / ignition. When all of this rough running first started, I think I had a compound of problems: carb was always choked and probably needed cleaned, points were pretty well worn, ignition coil appeared to be wildly overheating even with ballast resistor. As things stand now, I'm pretty certain that my major problem is electrical / ignition:

WHAT I DID LAST NIGHT AND TODAY
I was examining the connections from the coil, to distributor, points, condenser, ground, etc., last night and I thought my connection between the (-) of the coil and the side post on the distributor housing didn't make sense. I did some googling and came across a random Rising Sun 4x4 thread where someone solved his no start with a points dizzy when he realized that a plastic bushing between the side of the distributor (on the post) and the cable from the (-) coil to the distributor post broke off when he was tinkering. I didn't remember seeing this on mine, but did remember that there was a plastic connector on the inside of my distributor where the points cable and condenser attach. *Surely this means that these connections are meant to be isolated from the constant ground of the distributor assembly. I checked mine and sure enough there was no thick plastic washer between the ring connector and the size of the distributor. There was some weird, thin "metal" washer that appeared to be relatively non conductive, but it didn't appear to be doing enough.

BEFORE: Just metal nuts and the weird, semi rubberized metal washer. Also, ignore the condenser in this pic. This was the wrong one and doesn't have the bracket connection to the dizzy post connection. I had swapped it in for another test. With this configuration, I suspected that the distributor primary, condenser and points circuit was always closed via it being grounded to the side of the distributor and thus the coil never had a chance to properly build it's field to generate high voltage. With the ignition ON, I hooked my multimeter between the + battery terminal and the distributor connector post and it read 12.3V with the points open and closed (just as I suspected because the primary circuit was never broken).

AFTER: I adde a plastic and rubber washer between the distributor housing, on the post, and the nuts / (-) connector from the ignition coil. This image also contains the proper condenser connections. This is my original condenser, but I checked it with a multi meter and it functioned as I'd expect. With this new configuration, I observed the following

Test 1 - IGNITION OFF: Battery (+) to distributor side post ( - coil connection) = 12.3V with the points gap open and closed. I will admit, I don't quite understand this behavior. Can someone explain this to me? Is this expected behavior?

Test 2 - IGNITION ON: Battery (+) to distributor side post (also checked the cable lead from the post to the points). With points gap closed = 10.85V. With points gap open = .34V. Close points gap again and voltage initially reads 8.4V, jumps around a tiny bit, then slow climbs to 10.9V. Seems like this is simply, charging the condenser via ignition circuit and multimeter completing loop, discharging the condenser via contact and ground and re-charging it?

Test 3 - IGNITION ON: Battery (-) to distributor side post. With points gap closed = 1.00V. With points gap open = 11.8V. Close again and voltage slowly decreases from 3V to 1V. Sounds like this scenario is charging the condenser then discharging it, similar to how you would bench test one.

Here is where things got weird and really pointed me toward some sort of ignition circuit / electrical problem being the main culprit. After completing these tests, I buttoned everything up thinking that this confirmed my suspicion of the improper grounding contact on the side post. I turned the ignition to fire up the engine and after a few seconds and mashing the gas pedal it fired, idling quite high. I jumped out of the driver seat after a second or two to try and adjust the carb mixture screw to see where I could get idle to settle. After a screw turn or two, the idle started to slow down significantly and then suddenly...stalled. I reset the mixture screw back to where I had it before and went to start the engine again...NOW the behavior was 100% the same as the days prior - took tons of cranks, tons of gas pedal mashes, eventually started and sounded like it was misfiring, low idle, any throttle killed it. I tried to start it a few more times and could not get it to start.

IGNITION COIL
I decided that I was never 100% confident in my new ignition coil and hadn't run that test yet, so I tried the direct to battery test and check for spark, outlined here.
Testing the ignition coil - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/testing-the-ignition-coil.196883/
After connecting everything, making sure I was doing the touch and go method correct, I was getting ZERO spark from the spark plug. All I got was a faint arc on the "touch and go" wires when I touched them together. So...I decided to try it with my original coil. To my surprise, it sparked! What do you think?


Just to double check, I hooked up the new coil again and re-ran the test. Same result - no spark. Then, I connected the old one again, re-ran the test and again...spark! At this point I figured my new ignition coil was in fact, a dud (I'll address these in more detail later in my specific questions). I wired in the old distributor (Toyota Denso OEM 90919-02113). I will say that the truck arrive to me with a ballast resistor wired in, but i decided to try running it without it as my googling suggested it had an internal one (again...more on this later). With the old coil now wired in, I ran the same 3 voltage checks as before to just to double check things. The voltages were more or less the same, but I kind of expected this.

I buttoned things up and turned the ignition once again. This time it ignited IMMEDIATELY...I mean not a second of lag and with no depression of the throttle or choke. However, it very very abruptly died a few seconds later...no stumbling or hesitation. It just stalled.

I tried doing the voltage check procedure for a third time (second time with the old coil). Voltage readings in all points connection scenarios were the same as before. I buttoned things up and started it again. It fired right up, idled high. I decided to give it throttle and it revved and responded great for a few seconds, then...stalled with a bit of puttering this time.

The direct to battery spark plug test would indicate that the new, internal resistor I got from Cruiser Corps was junk. I wanted to test each coil per the FSM, anyway, but the verbiage in the FSM is very vague and not easy to comprehend, plus it varies between the 1980 FSM and 1991 FSM and I know there was some variation in the internal resistance of Toyota's 12V coils for later models with igniters and electronic ignition. Anyway, here is what I measured:

1. New internal resistor coil from cruiser corps: Primary circuit = 3.3 ohms, Secondary circuit = 7.69 kohms
2. Old OEM toyota resistor (90919-02113): Primary circuit = 0.7 ohms, Secondary circuit = 13.29 kohms, Ballast Resistor = 1.8 ohms

Here is the 1991 manual FSM that I was following. This is the only manual that mentions w/ or w/o resistor types of ignition coils. However, I really can't tell if it means w or w/o internal resistor or w/ or w/o external resistor. Anyway, none of this may even matter if my coil or the coils mentioned in the manual have different internal resistance specifications.

UPSTREAM IGNITION CIRCUIT
Now I moved upstream, thinking I was getting a short or something prior to the ignition coil. I couldn't explain the behavior where I would tinker with the distributor internals, checking voltages, charging and discharging, then the engine would fire right up each 3 times I did this. Then, it wouldn't start at all or would start, idle rough, and die with any throttle. I decided to check the ignition switch, as I had replaced that previously with a new one because the contact plates in the original were worn. I went to disconnect the cable connector behind the steering column and noticed it was quite warm (is this normal??). I thought...maybe this new part was junk...best to re-try the old one. I through the old one in. The car didn't want to start, same behavior as days prior. I re-did my voltage checks at the distributor...once again. And, once again...it FIRED RIGHT UP. Then, as expected, it died again and I couldn't get it started. I touched the connector for the old ignition switch and it was warm...maybe not as warm as the other, but it also wasn't connected very long. I swapped back in the new ignition switch and tried to start again. Still, no start, puttering, and at this point my battery was beginning to tire. So, I called it a night.

If you are still with me...here are my main lingering questions. I will admit, I am learning a lot, but I still am not 100% certain about the behavior of the apparent grounding of the distributor / connections and the magical mystery tour that is FJ40 ignition coils. So...

QUESTIONS
1. I really thought I hit the nail on the head this morning with the idea that the coil (-) to distributor post connection was grounding out on the housing and not allowing the coil to build charge properly. I would have put 95% on that being my problem. I was overjoyed when it fired right up, but super disheartened when it quickly died and behavior was again the same. So, was I correct in my thinking on the improper grounding and do my connections look proper (I don't have a pic, but the connections to the coil are simply the pos wire from the ignition switch on the (+), the high tension lead to the cap for the secondary circuit, and the wire from the (-) to the distributor body post. What do you think I am missing here? Can someone explain to me the different behavior of the circuit with ignition on versus off? It probably has something to do with me not quite understanding how a capacitor before ground works. Schematic from the FSM that, I believe, matches my setup and confirmed my thoughts on the side post isolation.

2. What in the hell is up with my ignition coils? Is 1 junk? Are they both junk? I'll say this...I am skeptical of the new Cruiser Corps, internal resistor, coil because it wouldn't generate spark with the direct connection test. I am also skeptical of my old, OEM, coil because it gets super hot to the point of burning the internal oil, even with the ballast resistor installed (See vid below, that I took back when the coil was the first thing I replaced to troubleshoot my no start). Also, I just don't know how this thing is supposed to be configured in general, and in my vehicle. When I did a more thorough search of the part number, it seems that it is a newer (like 1990s) ignition coil. There are no markings on it specifying whether or not to use it with a ballast resistor or without one. However, I found a mud post where someone mentioned it was an internal resistor coil but it has a smaller internal resistance as it was meant to be used with FJ60 era ignition systems that contained a top mounted igniter and electronic internals for the dizzy. Do you think this is why the ballast resistor was added, previously, to mine? Or, do you think some dumb dumb just did it to try and keep it from getting so hot. This thing is really a mystery to me.

Here is a pic I found with what looks suspiciously like my coil (with the end of the part number conveniently blanked out) and with a ballast resistor. So, maybe this was a thing people actually did...?

Here is the vid of my original setup smoking (some say it's just the dust burning off the resistor, but it's definitely oil burning out from the coil). You can see the oil gathering on the underside of the hood, above it.


3. This is more of a question and a statement. It doesn't seem like my ignition switch is bad, as some have suggested as a potential culprit. I have tried both a new one and my old one and the result is the same. Now, assuming those are in working order, is there anything else between the ignition switch and coil that could be causing this weird electrical behavior? I have cleaned the grounds and relevant connections that I can find.

FINALLY...A QUICK SUMMARY
I wanted to summarize how I got here, because I think where I am now and where I was are different. When I first got my FJ, it ran fine with no hesitation. It would start, cold, with 3 pedal pumps and a quick crank. When hot, however, it took progressively longer to start...more cranking and pedal pumping. One day, driving home on a 55 mph road with stop lights, I noticed the truck would be super sluggish getting going again after the stop lights. It wouldn't stall, but it would definitely sputter a bit. I parked the FJ at home and the next time I tried to start it, it was rough to start at first, then I tried to get it out of my driveway and it stalled for good.

This is when I started my repair journey. It hasn't "run" since. I first replaced the coil because I could see it smoking. Next, I visually inspected the carb on the vehicle and noticed the choke had been stuck closed the whole 4 months I had been driving it. I sprayed it with a ton of carb cleaner and it freed up. I tried to start the truck with freed choke and new coil, but it wouldn't go. Eventually after learning to try more and more cranking, I'd get it started, then it would stall, etc....and that's where I am today...but with more replaced parts, cleaned carb, new chinese carb, etc.

I think my initial problems were a combination of the choke always being closed (explains really not wanting to start when warm) and my points being worn. I inspected them after I removed them and they were quite shot. Maybe they were just worn from time, maybe it was the result of this electrical / ignition ghost im chasing...idk.

I do think, now, that the electrical problem I am chasing could be something that existed before and has somehow just gotten worse. But I also think it could be something new, either from the coil conundrum, something going awry with the dizzy grounding, something upstream in the ignition circuit. I really don't know. I'm honestly, super stuck right now...but I truly do think this electrical problem needs to be solved before I attempt to fine tune anything else. Something major has to be going wrong here with my ignition.

PLEASE HELP, LOL. This is taking up all of my brain energy and time.

 

[bdsmitty88]

Here is a pic of my two coils as well

 

[B y r o n]

I'm coming in late and admit to not reading the whole thread. Have you checked the fuel flow from the tank to the carb? Could be a clog in the fuel line/filter or a bad fuel pump.

 

[firefighterjed]

It’s a 40 year old South American truck with an unknown history. Trust nothing.

1982 fj40 weren’t common in the US and might confuse the parts stores, plus your world spec truck was probably has different accessories than a US truck in 1982.

The motor is the same so as long as you choose one year and make sure all the ignition parts are compatible with that year, you should be good. I would choose 1977 or 78. Since you (and I) don’t understand the details of how a points ignition works it makes sense to just make sure that all the parts are from the same year, that way they should work together.

Alternatively, you can delete all the OEM components and buy a HEI/DUI distributor that replaces the coil/ballast/igniter/points and everything. It’s not right if you’re a purist, but my rig came with one and it has been trouble free. It starts hot or cold. I recommend it!

All the wiring and connections and previous owner modifications are also 40 years old. As you troubleshoot, if you can isolate systems it helps you rule out problems. For example, the recommendation to jumper from battery to coil eliminates the ignitions switch and all the truck wiring.

I’ll reply more later

 

[45Dougal]

Ok...I'm making progress, but still quite confused about a few things. There is a silly amount of misinformation on this forum and others about ignition coils. Toyota certainly doesn't help its case with reusing parts, in different variations, so often. I'll start with what I did today and where I'm at, then try to end it with a few questions that I just can't figure out.

After some reading last night and some testing today, I'm nearly 100% certain my problem is electrical / ignition. When all of this rough running first started, I think I had a compound of problems: carb was always choked and probably needed cleaned, points were pretty well worn, ignition coil appeared to be wildly overheating even with ballast resistor. As things stand now, I'm pretty certain that my major problem is electrical / ignition:

WHAT I DID LAST NIGHT AND TODAY
I was examining the connections from the coil, to distributor, points, condenser, ground, etc., last night and I thought my connection between the (-) of the coil and the side post on the distributor housing didn't make sense. I did some googling and came across a random Rising Sun 4x4 thread where someone solved his no start with a points dizzy when he realized that a plastic bushing between the side of the distributor (on the post) and the cable from the (-) coil to the distributor post broke off when he was tinkering. I didn't remember seeing this on mine, but did remember that there was a plastic connector on the inside of my distributor where the points cable and condenser attach. *Surely this means that these connections are meant to be isolated from the constant ground of the distributor assembly. I checked mine and sure enough there was no thick plastic washer between the ring connector and the size of the distributor. There was some weird, thin "metal" washer that appeared to be relatively non conductive, but it didn't appear to be doing enough.

BEFORE: Just metal nuts and the weird, semi rubberized metal washer. Also, ignore the condenser in this pic. This was the wrong one and doesn't have the bracket connection to the dizzy post connection. I had swapped it in for another test. With this configuration, I suspected that the distributor primary, condenser and points circuit was always closed via it being grounded to the side of the distributor and thus the coil never had a chance to properly build it's field to generate high voltage. With the ignition ON, I hooked my multimeter between the + battery terminal and the distributor connector post and it read 12.3V with the points open and closed (just as I suspected because the primary circuit was never broken).
View attachment 3327285

AFTER: I adde a plastic and rubber washer between the distributor housing, on the post, and the nuts / (-) connector from the ignition coil. This image also contains the proper condenser connections. This is my original condenser, but I checked it with a multi meter and it functioned as I'd expect. With this new configuration, I observed the following

Test 1 - IGNITION OFF: Battery (+) to distributor side post ( - coil connection) = 12.3V with the points gap open and closed. I will admit, I don't quite understand this behavior. Can someone explain this to me? Is this expected behavior?

Test 2 - IGNITION ON: Battery (+) to distributor side post (also checked the cable lead from the post to the points). With points gap closed = 10.85V. With points gap open = .34V. Close points gap again and voltage initially reads 8.4V, jumps around a tiny bit, then slow climbs to 10.9V. Seems like this is simply, charging the condenser via ignition circuit and multimeter completing loop, discharging the condenser via contact and ground and re-charging it?

Test 3 - IGNITION ON: Battery (-) to distributor side post. With points gap closed = 1.00V. With points gap open = 11.8V. Close again and voltage slowly decreases from 3V to 1V. Sounds like this scenario is charging the condenser then discharging it, similar to how you would bench test one.
View attachment 3327288

Here is where things got weird and really pointed me toward some sort of ignition circuit / electrical problem being the main culprit. After completing these tests, I buttoned everything up thinking that this confirmed my suspicion of the improper grounding contact on the side post. I turned the ignition to fire up the engine and after a few seconds and mashing the gas pedal it fired, idling quite high. I jumped out of the driver seat after a second or two to try and adjust the carb mixture screw to see where I could get idle to settle. After a screw turn or two, the idle started to slow down significantly and then suddenly...stalled. I reset the mixture screw back to where I had it before and went to start the engine again...NOW the behavior was 100% the same as the days prior - took tons of cranks, tons of gas pedal mashes, eventually started and sounded like it was misfiring, low idle, any throttle killed it. I tried to start it a few more times and could not get it to start.

IGNITION COIL
I decided that I was never 100% confident in my new ignition coil and hadn't run that test yet, so I tried the direct to battery test and check for spark, outlined here.
Testing the ignition coil - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/testing-the-ignition-coil.196883/
After connecting everything, making sure I was doing the touch and go method correct, I was getting ZERO spark from the spark plug. All I got was a faint arc on the "touch and go" wires when I touched them together. So...I decided to try it with my original coil. To my surprise, it sparked! What do you think?


Just to double check, I hooked up the new coil again and re-ran the test. Same result - no spark. Then, I connected the old one again, re-ran the test and again...spark! At this point I figured my new ignition coil was in fact, a dud (I'll address these in more detail later in my specific questions). I wired in the old distributor (Toyota Denso OEM 90919-02113). I will say that the truck arrive to me with a ballast resistor wired in, but i decided to try running it without it as my googling suggested it had an internal one (again...more on this later). With the old coil now wired in, I ran the same 3 voltage checks as before to just to double check things. The voltages were more or less the same, but I kind of expected this.

I buttoned things up and turned the ignition once again. This time it ignited IMMEDIATELY...I mean not a second of lag and with no depression of the throttle or choke. However, it very very abruptly died a few seconds later...no stumbling or hesitation. It just stalled.

I tried doing the voltage check procedure for a third time (second time with the old coil). Voltage readings in all points connection scenarios were the same as before. I buttoned things up and started it again. It fired right up, idled high. I decided to give it throttle and it revved and responded great for a few seconds, then...stalled with a bit of puttering this time.

The direct to battery spark plug test would indicate that the new, internal resistor I got from Cruiser Corps was junk. I wanted to test each coil per the FSM, anyway, but the verbiage in the FSM is very vague and not easy to comprehend, plus it varies between the 1980 FSM and 1991 FSM and I know there was some variation in the internal resistance of Toyota's 12V coils for later models with igniters and electronic ignition. Anyway, here is what I measured:

1. New internal resistor coil from cruiser corps: Primary circuit = 3.3 ohms, Secondary circuit = 7.69 kohms
2. Old OEM toyota resistor (90919-02113): Primary circuit = 0.7 ohms, Secondary circuit = 13.29 kohms, Ballast Resistor = 1.8 ohms

Here is the 1991 manual FSM that I was following. This is the only manual that mentions w/ or w/o resistor types of ignition coils. However, I really can't tell if it means w or w/o internal resistor or w/ or w/o external resistor. Anyway, none of this may even matter if my coil or the coils mentioned in the manual have different internal resistance specifications.
View attachment 3327312


UPSTREAM IGNITION CIRCUIT
Now I moved upstream, thinking I was getting a short or something prior to the ignition coil. I couldn't explain the behavior where I would tinker with the distributor internals, checking voltages, charging and discharging, then the engine would fire right up each 3 times I did this. Then, it wouldn't start at all or would start, idle rough, and die with any throttle. I decided to check the ignition switch, as I had replaced that previously with a new one because the contact plates in the original were worn. I went to disconnect the cable connector behind the steering column and noticed it was quite warm (is this normal??). I thought...maybe this new part was junk...best to re-try the old one. I through the old one in. The car didn't want to start, same behavior as days prior. I re-did my voltage checks at the distributor...once again. And, once again...it FIRED RIGHT UP. Then, as expected, it died again and I couldn't get it started. I touched the connector for the old ignition switch and it was warm...maybe not as warm as the other, but it also wasn't connected very long. I swapped back in the new ignition switch and tried to start again. Still, no start, puttering, and at this point my battery was beginning to tire. So, I called it a night.

If you are still with me...here are my main lingering questions. I will admit, I am learning a lot, but I still am not 100% certain about the behavior of the apparent grounding of the distributor / connections and the magical mystery tour that is FJ40 ignition coils. So...

QUESTIONS
1. I really thought I hit the nail on the head this morning with the idea that the coil (-) to distributor post connection was grounding out on the housing and not allowing the coil to build charge properly. I would have put 95% on that being my problem. I was overjoyed when it fired right up, but super disheartened when it quickly died and behavior was again the same. So, was I correct in my thinking on the improper grounding and do my connections look proper (I don't have a pic, but the connections to the coil are simply the pos wire from the ignition switch on the (+), the high tension lead to the cap for the secondary circuit, and the wire from the (-) to the distributor body post. What do you think I am missing here? Can someone explain to me the different behavior of the circuit with ignition on versus off? It probably has something to do with me not quite understanding how a capacitor before ground works. Schematic from the FSM that, I believe, matches my setup and confirmed my thoughts on the side post isolation.
View attachment 3327320

2. What in the hell is up with my ignition coils? Is 1 junk? Are they both junk? I'll say this...I am skeptical of the new Cruiser Corps, internal resistor, coil because it wouldn't generate spark with the direct connection test. I am also skeptical of my old, OEM, coil because it gets super hot to the point of burning the internal oil, even with the ballast resistor installed (See vid below, that I took back when the coil was the first thing I replaced to troubleshoot my no start). Also, I just don't know how this thing is supposed to be configured in general, and in my vehicle. When I did a more thorough search of the part number, it seems that it is a newer (like 1990s) ignition coil. There are no markings on it specifying whether or not to use it with a ballast resistor or without one. However, I found a mud post where someone mentioned it was an internal resistor coil but it has a smaller internal resistance as it was meant to be used with FJ60 era ignition systems that contained a top mounted igniter and electronic internals for the dizzy. Do you think this is why the ballast resistor was added, previously, to mine? Or, do you think some dumb dumb just did it to try and keep it from getting so hot. This thing is really a mystery to me.

Here is a pic I found with what looks suspiciously like my coil (with the end of the part number conveniently blanked out) and with a ballast resistor. So, maybe this was a thing people actually did...?
View attachment 3327520


Here is the vid of my original setup smoking (some say it's just the dust burning off the resistor, but it's definitely oil burning out from the coil). You can see the oil gathering on the underside of the hood, above it.


3. This is more of a question and a statement. It doesn't seem like my ignition switch is bad, as some have suggested as a potential culprit. I have tried both a new one and my old one and the result is the same. Now, assuming those are in working order, is there anything else between the ignition switch and coil that could be causing this weird electrical behavior? I have cleaned the grounds and relevant connections that I can find.

FINALLY...A QUICK SUMMARY
I wanted to summarize how I got here, because I think where I am now and where I was are different. When I first got my FJ, it ran fine with no hesitation. It would start, cold, with 3 pedal pumps and a quick crank. When hot, however, it took progressively longer to start...more cranking and pedal pumping. One day, driving home on a 55 mph road with stop lights, I noticed the truck would be super sluggish getting going again after the stop lights. It wouldn't stall, but it would definitely sputter a bit. I parked the FJ at home and the next time I tried to start it, it was rough to start at first, then I tried to get it out of my driveway and it stalled for good.

This is when I started my repair journey. It hasn't "run" since. I first replaced the coil because I could see it smoking. Next, I visually inspected the carb on the vehicle and noticed the choke had been stuck closed the whole 4 months I had been driving it. I sprayed it with a ton of carb cleaner and it freed up. I tried to start the truck with freed choke and new coil, but it wouldn't go. Eventually after learning to try more and more cranking, I'd get it started, then it would stall, etc....and that's where I am today...but with more replaced parts, cleaned carb, new chinese carb, etc.

I think my initial problems were a combination of the choke always being closed (explains really not wanting to start when warm) and my points being worn. I inspected them after I removed them and they were quite shot. Maybe they were just worn from time, maybe it was the result of this electrical / ignition ghost im chasing...idk.

I do think, now, that the electrical problem I am chasing could be something that existed before and has somehow just gotten worse. But I also think it could be something new, either from the coil conundrum, something going awry with the dizzy grounding, something upstream in the ignition circuit. I really don't know. I'm honestly, super stuck right now...but I truly do think this electrical problem needs to be solved before I attempt to fine tune anything else. Something major has to be going wrong here with my ignition.

PLEASE HELP, LOL. This is taking up all of my brain energy and time.

Sounds like you've found one of the main culprits with that insulator on the side post, one big step closer.
Q2) If this was shorting to ground continually, then this could have caused your original coil to overheat and possibly breakdown the insulation between primary and secondary (so be wary of it, but it may be fine now that you fixed this insulator).
Q3) The ignition switch connector should not get warm. This is caused by a poor contact in that connector - remove each of the terminals in both halves of the connector and check for corrosion (this is exactly why you run the previously mentioned wire to bypass all of that circuit directly to the battery and this rule this out).
Q1)You've been testing voltage, which is useful but only tells part of the story. You said that when the ignition was off, you measured 12v between b+ and the post with the points open. This indicates that the post was grounded, however you then need to test resistance between the post and ground (its probably a fairly high resistance rather than a dead short suggested by the volt reading).
I expect the coils should work down to about 8.5v, and it seems that you're losing over a volt between your points and the b-. This is possibly compounding your other problems, so you can also try and run a bypass between the dizzy casing and b-. If you have a good earth strap on the engine this should be much smaller than 1v. Maybe a dirty or painted dizzy casing where its clamped?

 

[bdsmitty88]

Sounds like you've found one of the main culprits with that insulator on the side post, one big step closer.
Q2) If this was shorting to ground continually, then this could have caused your original coil to overheat and possibly breakdown the insulation between primary and secondary (so be wary of it, but it may be fine now that you fixed this insulator).
Q3) The ignition switch connector should not get warm. This is caused by a poor contact in that connector - remove each of the terminals in both halves of the connector and check for corrosion (this is exactly why you run the previously mentioned wire to bypass all of that circuit directly to the battery and this rule this out).
Q1)You've been testing voltage, which is useful but only tells part of the story. You said that when the ignition was off, you measured 12v between b+ and the post with the points open. This indicates that the post was grounded, however you then need to test resistance between the post and ground (its probably a fairly high resistance rather than a dead short suggested by the volt reading).
I expect the coils should work down to about 8.5v, and it seems that you're losing over a volt between your points and the b-. This is possibly compounding your other problems, so you can also try and run a bypass between the dizzy casing and b-. If you have a good earth strap on the engine this should be much smaller than 1v. Maybe a dirty or painted dizzy casing where its clamped?

REGARDING Q2...
I performed the direct to battery coil test again today with a fully charged battery. I wanted to be as thorough as possible, so I performed the test a bunch of times with varying plugs to confirm. I repeated the test 3 times: Old coil with ballast resistor in line, without ballast resistor inline, and new coil. The new coil performed the worst, in terms of spark strength. Not far behind was the old coil with ballast in line. Best was the old coil with no ballast. I tried each 3 configurations with 12 spark plugs, to confirm all my plugs were good to. I have a set of bosch, OE similar plugs, and a set of fancy NGK plugs that were recommended for FJs. The NGK plugs seemed to spark a bit stronger and more consistent. Both sets are basically new. All 3 configurations did produce spark, however, but the old coil with ballast and new coil were the most sensitive to how I "struck" the wires together to create spark.

All 3 configurations measured within resistance specs for primary and secondary. Doing this test alone, would suggest both coils were fine, but clearly there is a performance difference. I decided to hook up the old coil again to test ignition, since it was sparking the best. It did get super super hot during my testing tho. This time I put the fancy NGK coils in. After everything was hooked up, I turned the ignition to on and let it sit for a minute...It seems like this pre-charges the coil wiring somehow. As was yesterday, the car fired right up with very little pump of the pedal required. I took my foot off the gas, the idle dropped quickly, I tried to give it more gas...but it stalled instantly. I tried cranking a few more times and it would just chug and attempt to start, but ultimately stall. The behavior was the same as yesterday (not saying this was unexpected, but just wanted to retry with the new plugs fully charged battery. I should note that without letting the ignition sit "ON" for 30 seconds to a minute, the car does not start. If I do let it sit, it fires right up, then stalls.

New Development: I don't know how I didn't notice this before, but the positive lead to the (+) coil post (black and yellow wire) appears to be grounded. My voltmeter reads battery voltage from this wire to battery (+) when ignition off, and battery voltage from this wire to battery (-) when ignition on. I checked continuity resistance from this wire to battery ground and engine block ground and it beeped. So, somehow this hot lead is GROUNDED too. How is this not blowing a fuse somewhere? The results of this test were 100% the same with with the ignition switch connector connected and disconnected. So, it isn't related to the switch, itself. I've inspected most of the wiring on the truck and fixed a few sketchy connections from when I received the truck. As far as I can tell, everything looks normal. I ran out of daylight, and patience, tonight but hope to inspect the wiring a bit more tomorrow. The ground from battery to engine block is solid and clean and from starter to frame is solid and clean. I can't imagine where this ignition wire would be "grounded" between the coil (+) and ignition switch connector. I cleaned the connector terminals as best I could without removing them (prefer to do this as a last resort if i have to). I connected the ignition switch again and noticed this....Is this arcing normal? If not, I assume it's probably a result of the grounding ignition wire.


Here's where things get odd...To bypass this grounding ignition wire issue, I decided to connect the coil (+) directly to the battery (+). EXACT SAME BEHAVIOR. If I let the coil sit for a minute or so, connected to the battery (+), then turned the ignition, it would fire right up, idle high, then quick drop, sputter and stall. If I tried to start again, it would barely start, sputter hard, die with any touch of throttle, or just letting it try to idle long enough.

I'm having a hard time explaining why the starting behavior would be identical with an improperly grounded ignition wire and directly connected to the battery. How would this grounded ignition wire not affect the way the truck behaves in some way?

Could it be, somehow, that this grounding ignition wire isn't doing anything to prevent the truck from starting / running (because I am nearly certain it has been this way, unchanged, since I acquired the truck). Perhaps all this ignition wire grounding is doing is frying the internals of the coil...so now I just have two bad coils? What do you think?

REGARDING Q3...I imagine my ignition switch connector getting warm has something to do with this grounded ignition wire. I didn't notice it getting warm when I tried starting the vehicle with the coil directly connected to battery and not the ignition wire. One more question, here...I know some FJ40s were equipped with a resisted wire to the ignition. If your vehicle was equipped with this, could this cause the ignition switch connector to get warm?

REGARDING Q1...I didn't get around to doing any resistance checks on the dizzy post / system, but I was wondering if the grounded ignition wire would likely be the cause of the the 12V reading between battery (+) and dizzy post with points open and closed....since the internal wire running from coil (+) to coil (-) is continuous.


Thanks! I'll admit, I'm hella confused by the identical behavior when the coil is connected to ignition fire, versus direct to battery. Also, should I just go ahead and order a new coil and try to start the truck with it connected direct to battery? I can't think of another way to definitively test the coils to figure out if they are junk, without somehow testing the output voltage from the secondary.

 

[45Dougal]

The grounding is a red herring. What else is connected to that circuit that also connects to ground? Regulator?

Ign switch arc indicated a heavy load is being switched. Something else connected and switched on? Engine cooling fan for example?

When you ran the wire from battery to coil, did you disconnect the original wire at the coil, or left it connected? (Maybe the regulator is misbehaving).

 

[bdsmitty88]

The grounding is a red herring. What else is connected to that circuit that also connects to ground? Regulator?

Ign switch arc indicated a heavy load is being switched. Something else connected and switched on? Engine cooling fan for example?

When you ran the wire from battery to coil, did you disconnect the original wire at the coil, or left it connected? (Maybe the regulator is misbehaving).

As far as I can tell, the ignition switch wire runs from ignition, through fire wall in the harness, then it is branched off after passing through the firewall and run to the fusible link and regulator. The main portion of the wire, not branched, then heads to the coil. All of this splitting occurs in the wiring harness. Not sure if the splits are OEM or not, but from what I can tell this portion of the wiring hasn't been tampered with. I don't suspect anything is wrong with the regulator, as the alternator voltage (measured at battery) has always seemed correct when the car was running and I've never had erratic behavior from the ammeter.

EDIT TO ADD
I just found this wiring schematic for non-usa FJs. It looks like the the BY ignition wire is meant to be split off to go to the regulator. However, it looks like this regulator split is fused by the 15A Engine Fuse. If something on the regulator circuit was improperly grounding, wouldn't it blow this fuse? Alternate question...is it possible that the fuse panel is improperly grounded? Should any of the fuses be getting power with the key in full off? With the key off, I have accidentally arced a fuse or two at the top when unbolting the fuse panel from the frame.

I did add in an aftermarket stereo with a decent sized amplifier (nothing the battery can't handle). It is wired to turn on, from the fuse panel, with the ignition on signal (pretty common in stereo wiring). Could this be the heavy load? I imagine the current draw has to be relatively significant. I wired in an inline 100A fuse for the amplifier main power, so I suppose I could repeat the same test with this fuse link broken.

I did disconnect the Ignition On wire from the coil (+) terminal when I directly connected it to the battery with a bypass wire.

Do you have any strong opinion on the coil conundrum, outside of the grounding issue? I was thinking of maybe just ordering the cheapest 12V, ideally 3 ohm, coil I can find on amazon and trying the direct to battery ignition test again to see if that could confirm my two coils being degrade, internally.


EDIT TO ADD
It's probably unrelated but worth mentioning just in case. A few weeks before my truck died, I had to replace some parts in the parking brake output connection at the transfer case exit to the driveshaft. While I was in there, and fluid drained, everyone recommended replacing the o-ring seal for the speedometer. It seemed pretty straightforward removing that thing and re-inserting, but ever since then my speedometer readout on the instrument panel hasn't worked. I did drive the truck for a few weeks with it not working before the truck died. I'm having a hard time finding the wiring loop for the speedometer (non-usa), but I've found a ton of MUD threads where everyone says to BE SURE to disconnect the battery when replacing the speedometer cable or messing with it in any way. I don't remember if I did that or not. Does the speedo cable ground to the transfer case? Is there any way that the speedo not working could have some sort of connection to the improper ground for the ignition. Like, maybe the speedo connection on the instrument cluster got fried and is grounding against the 12V from ignition? I would have expected this to have an effect on everything in the instrument cluster, but not sure.

 

[45Dougal]

If you measure the resistance between the dizzy output post and ground, i guess you'll have a few ohms. You beeped continuity, but this doesn't mean it's a dead short - it could be a few ohms, and consistent with another load on the same line through the coil.

Secondly measure the resistance between the dizzy ground plate and battery negative - you shouldn't have a 1v drop there.

Thirdly, try removing the engine fuse and see if that helps.

Finally have you tried running it without the condenser fitted?

The mechanical speedo cable can easily short against the starter, but I don't know about the later one.

100A fuse?? That sounds a bit pointless unless you're running 1kw of stereo through your key switch which would be a bit silly.