- Thread starter
- #61
Photos would be incredibly helpful, if you don't mind taking them. Thanks!
I honestly am not sure if the engine is centered or offset - the truck came to me with it already installed and I haven't measured...
Next Project - Fixing PO Power Steering Debacle
- Thread starter RWBeringer4x4
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
Photos would be incredibly helpful, if you don't mind taking them. Thanks!
I honestly am not sure if the engine is centered or offset - the truck came to me with it already installed and I haven't measured...
You're correct. The shaft is not fixed in place. The rubber boot helps protect the two pieces from getting gooped up with road grime, etc. The strength of the shaft comes from the amount of overlap of the two pieces fitting together.
- Thread starter
- #63
So does this, in effect, serve as a slip yoke? The one Kurt is selling looks almost like a hydraulic yoke or something...
Thanks for dealing with all the questions, learning as I go!
Well, got a chance to snap a few pictures, but having trouble getting them to show in the message. So here is a link to a picasa album:
https://picasaweb.google.com/107081466498030666545/April12013?authuser=0&feat=directlink
There is the obligatory shot of the rig, one the rod end that is the support bearing, the steering box, a shot showing how it tucks behind (and under) the headers, the delrin bushing that is inserted at the end of the column, and the grease zerk under the dash for the bushing.
The headers make it really hard to get a clear shot of the routing. Actually I have a set of ramhorns blasted and surfaced waiting on the bench. I have been waiting until I get the suspension worked out so I know where to route the new exhaust. My motor is offset to the driver side by several inches, and you might be able to see in the shot of the rod end that the motor mount is notched to clear the steering shaft. That was done by the PO, and with the nice new stuff I put in I really didn't need to do that, but since it was already done, I just ran it there. When I change to manifolds, I'll make a new mount for the support and pull it back toward the frame rail.
After taking a hard look at my setup I realize that I will need some sort of expansion joint. I'm not worried about frontal impact, but flexing of the frame and body. With the run up the frame rail from the steering box to the support bearing, it kind of forms a lever, and there isn't much give (none really) other than flex in the shaft. I'll probably make some kind of rubber isolator for the support that will allow for a controlled amount of movement.
Hope the pics are of some help. If you see, or don't see, something you could use more specifics on, just let me know. Good luck with your project.
lefty b
Oh yeah, mine is a '76 by the way. Still need to get a sig on my postings.
https://picasaweb.google.com/107081466498030666545/April12013?authuser=0&feat=directlink
There is the obligatory shot of the rig, one the rod end that is the support bearing, the steering box, a shot showing how it tucks behind (and under) the headers, the delrin bushing that is inserted at the end of the column, and the grease zerk under the dash for the bushing.
The headers make it really hard to get a clear shot of the routing. Actually I have a set of ramhorns blasted and surfaced waiting on the bench. I have been waiting until I get the suspension worked out so I know where to route the new exhaust. My motor is offset to the driver side by several inches, and you might be able to see in the shot of the rod end that the motor mount is notched to clear the steering shaft. That was done by the PO, and with the nice new stuff I put in I really didn't need to do that, but since it was already done, I just ran it there. When I change to manifolds, I'll make a new mount for the support and pull it back toward the frame rail.
After taking a hard look at my setup I realize that I will need some sort of expansion joint. I'm not worried about frontal impact, but flexing of the frame and body. With the run up the frame rail from the steering box to the support bearing, it kind of forms a lever, and there isn't much give (none really) other than flex in the shaft. I'll probably make some kind of rubber isolator for the support that will allow for a controlled amount of movement.
Hope the pics are of some help. If you see, or don't see, something you could use more specifics on, just let me know. Good luck with your project.
lefty b
Oh yeah, mine is a '76 by the way. Still need to get a sig on my postings.
- Thread starter
- #65
Nice rig, lefty! And thanks for the photos. I'm thinking I will probably have to do something similar - a 3 jointed column or something of the sort...
spotcruiser
Geezer
Photos of the slip joint, shaft, and u-joint that Kurt supplies. The slip joint is perhaps 6" long and is greaseable. A very slight bit of sanding was required to fit the upper u-joint to the shaft of the LC steering column. I drilled and tapped the column shaft so that the u-joint bolt would thread all the way through. It could also be welded. I welded the bottom u-joint to the shaft. The shaft is round with a square groove down it and Kurt supplies the spline that gets welded into the shaft to index the slip joint and lower u-joint. With the shaft trimmed to end in the middle of the slip-joint with the truck on flat ground, there is approximately 3" of travel in each direction during flexing (way more than should ever be necessary). I'd install this same set-up again in a heartbeat.
- Thread starter
- #67
Thanks Spotcruiser,
That is a clean looking setup! My only concern is the wide U-joints. They are very similar to what I currently have in the truck, and clearance by the box at the frame rail is very tight. I do like the idea of the (seemingly narrower) Borgeson/Flaming River joints others have used.
Is there any advantage to the slip-shaft section in Kurt's setup, over the telescoping section on the Borgeson shaft, or am I really splitting hairs at this point?
That is a clean looking setup! My only concern is the wide U-joints. They are very similar to what I currently have in the truck, and clearance by the box at the frame rail is very tight. I do like the idea of the (seemingly narrower) Borgeson/Flaming River joints others have used.
Is there any advantage to the slip-shaft section in Kurt's setup, over the telescoping section on the Borgeson shaft, or am I really splitting hairs at this point?
spotcruiser
Geezer
I like "beefy" when it comes off-road parts. The Spicer joints that Kurt sells are designed for farm equipment and construction equipment. The Borgerson stuff is typically for hot rods. I can't say that you'll ever bust the Borgerson fittings, but I'm sure you'll never bust these Spicer fittings. I have no clearance issues with any of it.
I don't now that there's any advantage to one slip joint over the other, but this Spicer slip-joint is stupid-simple, sturdy, greaseable, doesn't need a dust boot, and provides about 6" of travel. I believe the shaft is 3/4" OD, so it has about as little interference with exhaust manifolds, frame, and shock mounts as you can get with a straight shaft.
I don't now that there's any advantage to one slip joint over the other, but this Spicer slip-joint is stupid-simple, sturdy, greaseable, doesn't need a dust boot, and provides about 6" of travel. I believe the shaft is 3/4" OD, so it has about as little interference with exhaust manifolds, frame, and shock mounts as you can get with a straight shaft.
- Thread starter
- #69
Spotcruiser,
Some interesting points. I didn't realize the Spicer joints were "heavy duty." They look virtually identical to the ones already in my truck. I doubt the kind of action this truck would see during my ownership would necessitate them, but I am a big fan of "do it right, or do it twice" (hence playing 20 questions). Plus, if I ever sell it, I'd like to be considered a "good" PO - and not see posts like this trying to undo my damage!
The 3/4" OD column is a strong selling point. I'm hoping that moving the box will give me better clearance from the Ram's horn, but going to a 1" shaft (Borgeson) might eat up any spaced gained. Got to love working with millimeters.
Some interesting points. I didn't realize the Spicer joints were "heavy duty." They look virtually identical to the ones already in my truck. I doubt the kind of action this truck would see during my ownership would necessitate them, but I am a big fan of "do it right, or do it twice" (hence playing 20 questions). Plus, if I ever sell it, I'd like to be considered a "good" PO - and not see posts like this trying to undo my damage!
The 3/4" OD column is a strong selling point. I'm hoping that moving the box will give me better clearance from the Ram's horn, but going to a 1" shaft (Borgeson) might eat up any spaced gained. Got to love working with millimeters.
Those spicer joints are actually used in driveshaft applications in low-power engines. IMO, they are overkill for a steering application. NTTAWWT. The Borgeson joints are plenty strong and you will never break them in a million years of wheeling.
- Thread starter
- #71
Decisions decisions... I like the improved clearance potential of Kurt's steering shaft, but I like the simplicity of the Borgeson setup...
Just curious if there has been any progress with this saginaw power steering as I am about to do away with the factory steering in my 40. This thread has been very helpful with all the recommendations and it would be nice to see the finished product. I too have a SBC in my 40 and running 37" tires mostly in rocks and ruts.
Thank you.
Thank you.
- Thread starter
- #73
@TwelveGravity - Yep, I rebuilt the whole power steering system. That was about 2 years ago now though, so my memory is a bit rusty! I'll see what I can pull from my spreadsheets and photos.
I ended up getting a new weld-on mounting plate, including a tube that welded through the cross-member and reinforced the hole, (with spacers, etc.), a pitman arm, tie rod, column bearing, and drag link ends from Kurt at Cruiser Outfitters.
For the steering shaft I used the Borgeson setup often referred to here. Part numbers: BRG-450036 (shaft) BRG-014940 (lower U-Joint) FLA-FR2517DD (upper U-Joint).
I did away with a steering stabilizer entirely. I've been meaning to add one but I haven't really needed it so far.
I had a local shop do the welding (I don't have a welder yet). Here's some shots from the photo archive - sorry they're blurry, bad camera on the iPhone back in the day!
First, the old kit was cut off and removed. The PO had badly burned the frame metal in his horrendous attempt at welding. Plus, he'd also cut out a big chunk of the cross member. So most of the top and inside of that corner of the frame is new metal. The shop patched the frame where that nasty jagged hole was, cut a proper hole in it, then mounted the cross-member tube from kurt's kit through it. The new steering mounting plate was installed, with spacers welded on to center the box in the hole. Those spacers are also sleeved by dom tubing THROUGH the frame. So the bolts pass through a reinforced tube, which helps distribute the load through the frame horn.
If you make this hole large enough, and angle the box so that you can mount the steering box slightly recessed in the frame, you can do away with the "spud shaft" like the one I previously had to run. This takes pressure off the back of the box, which is what was causing my previous leak.
We had a really hard time getting clearance for the borgeson steering shaft, mostly because my engine was intalled VERY poorly (fixing that next summer). He ended up needing to disconnect the engine, and moving it over on the adjustable AA mounts slightly to gain clearance. It still BARELY misses the driver's side exhaust manifold and power steering pump mount:
Lower:
Upper - note how close it is to the exhaust. Before moving the engine slightly, it was rubbing.
With the box mount, hole, and shaft in place, we painted, mounted the box, and connected it. He fabbed up some hoses and ran them under the frame. A little different than what you normally see here. I was worried about catching them on branches and such - but if a branch makes it that high, I have bigger problems!
This is a 4-turn box from a 70's Jeep J20 V8 pickup. I misplaced the part number, but I found it on this site somewhere!
From there, I installed the pitman arm, keyed and tapered for the corresponding GM drag link end from Kurt.
With 37" tires and a lift, you will probably need a pretty serious pitman arm drop, or a high-steer kit (or both). Kurt sells multiple "dropped" saginaw conversion pitman arms. I think they were about $50. If you give him a call, he can probably steer you in the right direction!
If I was going to do anything differently, I would have cut the hole SLIGHTLY more toward the center of the cross member, and run SLIGHTLY less angle on the box. Not much - because the further out from the corner you go, the weaker the attachment becomes, BUT as it stands, there is BARELY enough clearance for the front shackle. I have no lift and a standard shackle setup. I had to grind down the shackle and cut a bolt in half to get the necessary clearance due to the angle of the box.
I ended up getting a new weld-on mounting plate, including a tube that welded through the cross-member and reinforced the hole, (with spacers, etc.), a pitman arm, tie rod, column bearing, and drag link ends from Kurt at Cruiser Outfitters.
For the steering shaft I used the Borgeson setup often referred to here. Part numbers: BRG-450036 (shaft) BRG-014940 (lower U-Joint) FLA-FR2517DD (upper U-Joint).
I did away with a steering stabilizer entirely. I've been meaning to add one but I haven't really needed it so far.
I had a local shop do the welding (I don't have a welder yet). Here's some shots from the photo archive - sorry they're blurry, bad camera on the iPhone back in the day!
First, the old kit was cut off and removed. The PO had badly burned the frame metal in his horrendous attempt at welding. Plus, he'd also cut out a big chunk of the cross member. So most of the top and inside of that corner of the frame is new metal. The shop patched the frame where that nasty jagged hole was, cut a proper hole in it, then mounted the cross-member tube from kurt's kit through it. The new steering mounting plate was installed, with spacers welded on to center the box in the hole. Those spacers are also sleeved by dom tubing THROUGH the frame. So the bolts pass through a reinforced tube, which helps distribute the load through the frame horn.
If you make this hole large enough, and angle the box so that you can mount the steering box slightly recessed in the frame, you can do away with the "spud shaft" like the one I previously had to run. This takes pressure off the back of the box, which is what was causing my previous leak.
We had a really hard time getting clearance for the borgeson steering shaft, mostly because my engine was intalled VERY poorly (fixing that next summer). He ended up needing to disconnect the engine, and moving it over on the adjustable AA mounts slightly to gain clearance. It still BARELY misses the driver's side exhaust manifold and power steering pump mount:
Lower:
Upper - note how close it is to the exhaust. Before moving the engine slightly, it was rubbing.
With the box mount, hole, and shaft in place, we painted, mounted the box, and connected it. He fabbed up some hoses and ran them under the frame. A little different than what you normally see here. I was worried about catching them on branches and such - but if a branch makes it that high, I have bigger problems!
This is a 4-turn box from a 70's Jeep J20 V8 pickup. I misplaced the part number, but I found it on this site somewhere!
From there, I installed the pitman arm, keyed and tapered for the corresponding GM drag link end from Kurt.
With 37" tires and a lift, you will probably need a pretty serious pitman arm drop, or a high-steer kit (or both). Kurt sells multiple "dropped" saginaw conversion pitman arms. I think they were about $50. If you give him a call, he can probably steer you in the right direction!
If I was going to do anything differently, I would have cut the hole SLIGHTLY more toward the center of the cross member, and run SLIGHTLY less angle on the box. Not much - because the further out from the corner you go, the weaker the attachment becomes, BUT as it stands, there is BARELY enough clearance for the front shackle. I have no lift and a standard shackle setup. I had to grind down the shackle and cut a bolt in half to get the necessary clearance due to the angle of the box.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #74
A couple more shots of the final setup -
From the side (to show the angle on the box)
Underside to show hose routing (this is the old, incorrect pitman arm (hence the stacked washers), not Kurt's, so disregard that)
Hope this helps! Let me know if you have any questions! Mine ended up being a little unorthodox but I've been happy with it so far.
From the side (to show the angle on the box)
Underside to show hose routing (this is the old, incorrect pitman arm (hence the stacked washers), not Kurt's, so disregard that)
Hope this helps! Let me know if you have any questions! Mine ended up being a little unorthodox but I've been happy with it so far.
This is Very helpful. I will definitely be going with something like this. It looks If I use the same (or similar) Borgeson steering shaft it should eliminate the clearance issue with my shock hoops and header (I'm Hoping). I may make a mock setup to throw together just to see.
I like that you got away from the PO's mess and got back to details installing the crossmember tube insert from Kurt. As well as tubing the bolt holes through the chassis for the steering box. Did Kurt provide mounting instructions for the plate, where to drill and what size to drill to? You must have had to drill slightly larger holes for the tube inserts.
I think that a question that still remains is would this steering be sufficient for turning 37's on the trail?
Thanks for your advise.
I like that you got away from the PO's mess and got back to details installing the crossmember tube insert from Kurt. As well as tubing the bolt holes through the chassis for the steering box. Did Kurt provide mounting instructions for the plate, where to drill and what size to drill to? You must have had to drill slightly larger holes for the tube inserts.
I think that a question that still remains is would this steering be sufficient for turning 37's on the trail?
Thanks for your advise.
- Thread starter
- #76
As I mentioned, I had a local shop do the welding/plate installation. I believe Kurt has some instructions on his website but given that all these trucks are different (engines, headers, shock mounts vs hoops, etc) I don't think there's a "one size fits all" answer. Just lots of test-fitting, mock ups, and tweaking until you get everything line up how you like it.
The Saginaw box will absolutely turn 37's. I'm pretty sure it's the most powerful power steering option out there. I actually found it to be WAY over-boosted for my 31's and stock suspension. I can turn the truck with my pinky while sitting still.
I forgot to mention - even with stock suspension the power steering wanted a little bit of extra caster. I was running at about 0.2 degrees positive initially. The steering wouldn't return to center. I added 2 degree caster shims and it tightened up the steering a bit and got it returning to center out of turns properly.
If you look at the specs for most of the cars/trucks that ran these boxes stock, they generally had 2-4 degrees positive caster.
