New Style Man-a-Fre Headers and a Desmog later....

[chris777]

Jim, do you know the answer to my question about the disadvantages to advancing the timing as much as some of the people do that are posting on this thread? I mean, if advancing it will give me more power and better mileage, then Toyota would have done it themselves. There must be a downside.

 

[hank14]

Jim, do you know the answer to my question about the disadvantages to advancing the timing as much as some of the people do that are posting on this thread? I mean, if advancing it will give me more power and better mileage, then Toyota would have done it themselves. There must be a downside.

I believe the downside would be pinging (predetonation) like a Russian sub looking for the Red October.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Hey Johnny, I think Jim was talking about making it work with the stock smog bracketry. Works very well with the 3F bracket, but that is almost like cheating and not everyone has a spare 3F sitting around.

I was almost right! He was using equipment from different generations, so I was close!

Question of the day: Does the 3FE alt have the same specs as the 2F, or close enough specs so that it can be run instead of the stock 2F alt? Got a line on a bracket and 3FE alt for $35.

I got it to work with the stock 2f brackets. On the delco alt it is almost identical to the smog pump with the exception that the pivot bolt slide is about an inch shorter. To cure, I made an inch long tube to compensate. There are two 12mm bolts holding on the tension bracket, I just pulled the inner one and allowed the arm to pivot, letting me line up the tensioning screw to the alt.
It can be fitted, but finding a belt is difficult. A 42 and 5/8" belt could be used in an emergency, but it positions the alt too close to the frame. My local parts store couldn't get a belt a tad smaller until next week. The headers come in tomorrow, so I just opted to gut the smog pump for now.
Here's a pic of it off my other truck. I put many miles on this setup with no isssues.

This is a much easier option than using the 3FE bracket and finding a correct pulley. The only problem is that it's not Toyota like the rest of the rig...

Yes, I did not have any 3FE bracketry available.
Tried to use 70-74 bottom alternator bracket, 81-87 air pump adjuster arm and 79-87 IC alternator. It almost fit.

But now I'm gonna go try it using a 78 or 81 air pump bracket in lieu of the alt bracket, in case they are lower.

sorry for hijacking the desmog thread...

You have tried a bunch of options, haven't you? I think I'm gonna try the 3FE route, because it's proven.

 

[FJ40Jim]

Okay, I tried the 81-87 lower AP bracket, 79-87 alt, 81-87 adjuster arm.
Still doesn't fit. The AP bracket moves the pivot point down a little (good thing), but it also moves it out quite a bit, toward the SBX (bad thing). And the alt is still too high, so it interferes w/ the upper adjuster arm.

I was hoping to find an instant bolt-together solution to air pump removal, but no joy so far.

And I did not actually bolt on a 75-80 lower AP bracket, because they are the same position as 81-87, just w/ less space between ears, for an AP that is less deep.

 

[FJ40Jim]

Jim, do you know the answer to my question about the disadvantages to advancing the timing as much as some of the people do that are posting on this thread? I mean, if advancing it will give me more power and better mileage, then Toyota would have done it themselves. There must be a downside.

Optimum spark timing gives peak torque.
Earlier or later gives lower tq, BMEP, BSFC, etc.

Idle timing is an approximation. The desmogged timing should be set to give 36-40 degrees w/ everything in.

If the dissy has an eroded stop pin, functional centrifugal advance, and a functional vac advance, then there will be 25* of cent, plus 20* vac. That is 45* of advance w/ all in. so the base (idle) timing would need to be zero or less to keep the engine from rattling (common problem when desmogged).

If the cent adv is stuck, then there is only the 20* vac available. Base timing would need to be 15-20* to hit the 40* target.

If vac advance is bad, but cent is working, then base timing would need to be 10-15* to get to ~40*.

IOW, we cannot make generalizations about "Advancing timing to xx* makes it run better", because most posters do not have hard data on distributor advance curves.

 

[fliphkd778]

I'll most likely be sending a dizzy to you here shortly, how much do you charge?

 

[FJ40Jim]

$100 for clean & recurve & test spin & return shipping.

 

[RredFJ40]

Yeah, I would have liked to have the ceramic coating, but the cost was too much of a hike. When my header starts rusting this winter, I'll slap some more paint on.

17* BTDC? Awesome. How's the power at highway speeds? Smooth acceleration through the powerband?

I feel like my power is good, but I haven't driven many other 60's, especially equipped like mine. It accelerates smoothly and has lots of torque down low. I wish it would get up and move when it's high up in RPMs (like at highway speeds). But that just may be the old sixer. Anyway, it revs smoothly up to 3500 RPM at least.

I advanced my tuning over a period of time, advancing til I had good power, backing off when I got detonation, etc.

I still have to take it easy or retard the timing when I drop significantly in elevation. Probably a clue that my HAC system is not functioning properly. I live at 4100 feet so when I get to around 1500 feet it starts acting up.

 

[fliphkd778]

$100 for clean & recurve & test spin & return shipping.

Wow. That's an excellent deal. I'll do a search for your address, and enclose a check.
The headers came in today. They look okay, not too shabby for their price. Don't under any circumstances use the paper gasket they provide, it's terrible. My only complaint is that the pipes protrude about a half a millimeter beyond the flange; they're welded in the back. I'll fit them up, but if it doesn't look good I'll have them straight-edged.

 

[fliphkd778]

GLTH, where approximately did you cut your stock exhaust off? I've never hung exhaust before, and I'm not too sure on what sort of tension I should be looking for for the headers

 

[Godwin]

This is another alternative to having an alternator in the smog pump position and it retains the stock smog pump bracketry.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/222516-130-150-extra-amps-2f.html

 

[fliphkd778]

Headers are out drying. Cat is coming out next. I put it back together and started it up for less than a second to hear the engine. I plan to hang the headers, and get it running to go to an exhaust shop for them to finish from the header back.
I'm dreading sorting through all the vacuum stuff, I can hardly get anything out of that desmog diagram http://www.ih8mud.com/tech/smog/72706FJ60desmog.jpg
Mud members have always been there for me, therefore I am reassured

 

[Matt60]

Headers are out drying. Cat is coming out next. I put it back together and started it up for less than a second to hear the engine. I plan to hang the headers, and get it running to go to an exhaust shop for them to finish from the header back.
I'm dreading sorting through all the vacuum stuff, I can hardly get anything out of that desmog diagram http://www.ih8mud.com/tech/smog/72706FJ60desmog.jpg
Mud members have always been there for me, therefore I am reassured

side note on exhaust shops they like to sell cats on trucks that don't have them that are required to have them....

i would do my own exhaust and skip that shop that over charges for a dollars worth of wire...

oh and its loud as hell to rive w/ open headers

 

[fliphkd778]

Allrighty, I got it finally got it running without smog stuff. It is not smooth at all, very rough. Next I'm going to do the timing and see where I'm at...
No leaks on the headers, but they're going to rust in a few months. During the warm up for valve adjustment, paint flaked off some of the rear. I even sanded them down and did primer plus flat black header paint. No bad though for the low price.
Oh yeah, and I broke both of my bvsv's.

 

[fliphkd778]

Advanced the timing as far as it would go. Made it much better, a lot less stumbling in higher rpms. The truck seems like it's slower. I'm open header now, I think things can get only better with a little bit more backpressure.

 

[fliphkd778]

Thought you guys might want to see a video and a photo,

 

[GLTHFJ60]

GLTH, where approximately did you cut your stock exhaust off? I've never hung exhaust before, and I'm not too sure on what sort of tension I should be looking for for the headers

I cut off the exhaust as close to the firewall as possible. What I did, and I wish I had a reciprocating saw to do it with, but after removing the old manifolds, I pushed the exhaust as far towards the front of the truck as I could, then cut it off at the firewall with an angle grinder.

side note on exhaust shops they like to sell cats on trucks that don't have them that are required to have them....

i would do my own exhaust and skip that shop that over charges for a dollars worth of wire...

oh and its loud as hell to rive w/ open headers

Isn't it amazing how loud it is on open headers? When I first fired up my truck everyone in my neighborhood could hear.

About the cat, my exhaust shop asked if I wanted a cat and I told them nope. No questions asked.

Allrighty, I got it finally got it running without smog stuff. It is not smooth at all, very rough. Next I'm going to do the timing and see where I'm at...
No leaks on the headers, but they're going to rust in a few months. During the warm up for valve adjustment, paint flaked off some of the rear. I even sanded them down and did primer plus flat black header paint. No bad though for the low price.
Oh yeah, and I broke both of my bvsv's.

Are you sure that you hooked up the remaining vacuum lines correctly? Mine ran really rough till I looked at them again; I had a small leak that was leaning out my mixture too much.

FYI, a properly running engine should pull about 16 in/hg, so by using a vacuum gauge, you can tell whether or not you have a leak.

 

[fliphkd778]

Good idea, I'll do a vac test soon. It runs allright, just sort of weak.

 

[fliphkd778]

Nothing, I got a very steady 19 inches

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Nothing, I got a very steady 19 inches

maybe it's time for you to drill out the idle mixture screw and adjust it. I'm not sure what to tell you! How is it running weak? No power up hills?

Have you adjusted your timing? Advance it as far as you can without pinging, so about 12-14* btdc.