New LX-470 Fiasco - Need To Vent

[greynolds]

If you live in CA please read this about the Lemon Law:

http://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/pdf_files/lemonaid2005.pdf

And please bookmark this site for the Bureau of Automotive Repair:

http://smogcheck.ca.gov/stdhome.asp

I would consult an attorney who specializes in Lemon Law cases if you need to go there.

Thanks, but I live in Massachusetts. Our consumer protection laws are supposed to be some of the best in the country, but who knows how difficult it is to actually get them to actually work in one's favor.

I've contacted one of my Land Rover buddies who is a lawyer (though I think in real estate law) and is someone I respect for either assistance or a referral to someone he might know - that strikes me as a better way to get an attorney than opening the yellow pages and working my way down the list.

If any list members know of anyone good in the Boston, MA area (I live in Billerica), please let me know.

And yes, a990dna, I'll keep you all posted on the outcome.

This is actually the first vehicle that I've even come close to thinking Lemon Law - it's really sad that it's also, by far, the most expensive vehicle I've ever purchased and my first Toyota/Lexus product (not the first in my family as my parents and brother have had a number of Toyotas over the years). My Land Rover certainly had its share of issues, but none were major and very few had to be taken back because they weren't fixed the first time - it was just one thing after the other and eventually just about everything had been sorted out. The Land Rover dealer was always great - you always felt like you were treated properly and they always had a loaner vehicle if needed.

The loaner car guy at the dealership now recognizes me and apologized for not having an RX-330 for me - turns out I actually like the ES-330 better. The RX has HUGE blind spots in each of the rear corners and is pretty cramped for knee space - bottom line is I wouldn't consider buying one. The ES seems ok, but nothing special - I'd probably save some money and get a Camry instead. Neither vehicle seems even remotely special like the LX and GX do.

 

[sleeoffroad]

There is something else wrong. If the airbag feed wire was a common feed for other items, a current draw on that circuit would not cause the light to come on.

At this point, I would say, you have been nice enough and gave them the benifit of the doubt. Now I would play hardball, talk the the finance company and laywer.

Document every conversation, time the vehicle was out of service, etc etc. You need all that to go after them. It is possible that the goober that installed the GPS thing might have actually shorted wires, caused airbag modules to go bad, etc etc.

Ben, my sales manager bought a LS430 with 74k miles on it. It was delivered to the shop, he drove it 8 miles and the motor seized up. Intitially the dealer and lexus would not cover it. Then it was discoverd a repair was done to the pickup at 68k miles. It took him three weeks and a lot of calls to Lexus corporate etc and they finally agreed to cover the motor.

So, bottom line is, time to play hardball.

 

[100 TD]

Maybe if you don't have any success you could try a publicity stunt like http://www.crushmy307.co.uk/

Or something else outrageous, media etc etc

 

[ATLcrusher]

This is actually the first vehicle that I've even come close to thinking Lemon Law - it's really sad that it's also, by far, the most expensive vehicle I've ever purchased and my first Toyota/Lexus product (not the first in my family as my parents and brother have had a number of Toyotas over the years).

To be fair to the LX, it's (probably) only jacked up because of the dip**** installer.

I've been following this thread - and feel for you - definitely time for a new LX. Let this one be their problem.

 

[greynolds]

To be fair to the LX, it's (probably) only jacked up because of the dip**** installer.

I suspect that's probably true, but we'll probably never know for sure.

I've been following this thread - and feel for you - definitely time for a new LX. Let this one be their problem.

Let's hope so. Assuming I end up with a replacement vehicle, I know for sure that I will not let them put GuidePoint in it. Maybe LoJack, but the whole GuidePoint thing has not gone well. Assuming I get a fresh start (replacement vehicle), I should definitely look into what the stock security system gets me for a discount on my insurance before making a decision. The optional systems may not make much of a difference.

 

[a990dna]

Grey, have you considered contacting your auto insurance company to get their input? If they knew the potential liability associated with this vehicle now, they may refuse to write the policy...

that could make this a deal breaker.

And if you do get a replacement vehicle don't even allow LoJack to mess with it. The factory security systems are robust enough to ward off criminals. And if they're good enough to get past the OEM security, you really don't want the vehicle back anyway.

Just make sure you have the factory glass breakage sensors and you should be fine.

 

[Tinkerer]

I suspect that's probably true, but we'll probably never know for sure.



Let's hope so. Assuming I end up with a replacement vehicle, I know for sure that I will not let them put GuidePoint in it. Maybe LoJack, but the whole GuidePoint thing has not gone well. Assuming I get a fresh start (replacement vehicle), I should definitely look into what the stock security system gets me for a discount on my insurance before making a decision. The optional systems may not make much of a difference.

(And The World's Longest Forum Thread continues...)

Always stay away from letting anyone do anything to your vehicle, as much as possible. That's my philosphy. GuidePoint, LoJack, whatever - I would not allow anyone to touch my wiring to install anything.

Your problems illustrate the reasons for this philosphy quite clearly. The potential problems include:

"Scotch" insulation-piercing tap type connectors that damage the original (tapped) wire and lose connection continuity over time, cheesy plastic insulating tape that unravels later, poor wiring routing & securing - including routing wires thru freshly-drilled sheet metal holes without using a grommet, not putting in correct fusing, using undersized wire for power circuits, overloading or otherwise messing up existing circuits - the list goes on and on.

It's like doctors and "healthcare". "Iatrogenic" is the term used to denote doctor-caused harm. I wonder if there is a similar term for automotive service -caused harm to the vehicle?

(And yes, stay away from doctors as much as possible also... )

 

[jp213a]

I've got an incident opened with Lexus Customer Satisfaction. I expect to hear something from them tomorrow.

The only way the dealership is going to offer a replacement vehicle is through pressure brought on by Lexus USA. Here’s why. The vehicle was purchased through Ira Lexus of Danvers, MA. This dealership is part of Ira Motor Group headquartered in Boston. Ira Motor Group is owned by Group 1 Automotive, Inc. headquartered in Houston, TX. Group 1 is a $1.5 billion company with 96 dealerships spread over ten states. Their symbol on the New York Stock Exchange is GPI. There legal counsel is Vinson & Elkins LLS, one of the oldest and largest legal firms in the country. Your David, they’re Goliath.

From their web sites, Ira Motor Group and Group 1 both have a good rating with Toyota/Lexus and their products represent over 40% of Group 1 sales. Lexus USA is going to be your best avenue to resolve your problem. Even though the GuidePoint is an after market system, it was sold as a turnkey system by a Lexus dealership so Lexus USA should be interested in a satisfactory resolution.

As much as you want and deserve a new replacement vehicle, I would take the position that either: 1) provide a new vehicle or 2) repair the existing vehicle so it is as good as new. If the second option is pursued, insist that Lexus USA have a technician on-site for the entire job. Be sure the LX tech is an expert in SRS repairs. The dealership has already demonstrated their inability to make the repairs. Don’t accept anything less than on-site technical support by Lexus USA to supervise the repair. As you know, this is life safety equipment we’re talking about so phone support by Lexus USA or detailed written instructions aren’t good enough.

 

[greynolds]

Grey, have you considered contacting your auto insurance company to get their input? If they knew the potential liability associated with this vehicle now, they may refuse to write the policy...

that could make this a deal breaker.

I hadn't thought about that, but it's certainly worth a shot. Thing is, so long as the dealer claims they're trying to fix it and it's off the street, I'm not sure the insurance company really cares all that much.

And if you do get a replacement vehicle don't even allow LoJack to mess with it. The factory security systems are robust enough to ward off criminals. And if they're good enough to get past the OEM security, you really don't want the vehicle back anyway.

Just make sure you have the factory glass breakage sensors and you should be fine.

The whole point to getting LoJack or GuidePoint was to get the maximum savings on my car insurance. Either of these options saves me 35% on the comprehensive portion, which is a non-trivial amount - that will pay for the device and then start making me money over time. Thing is, the stock security system probably saves me something like 20% - if I get a replacement vehicle, I've decided that I'll have no aftermarket security system in it. Wierd thing is, I had LoJack in my 1995 Mitsubishi Montero, my 1995 Land Rover Discovery (bought used in 1997), and my 2005 Nissan Pathfinder - never had a related wiring problem with any of them.

I'm really wondering at this point if my LX simply had issues to begin wtih or if the initial GuidePoint install was responsible. I really don't see how this can be determined now.

 

[Da Hapa]

Oh man, GR. I saw this thread had entered its 7th page and was hoping against hope that it was because you were now completely satisfied.

I'm sorry.

I know you've got a lot on your plate but would you mind sharing with me (either publicaly or through pm) what was the source and fix for your vibration issue? I'm just concerned becuase I just picked up our 2006 and (knock on wood) it seems perfect but these kinds of things always worry me.

Thanks and again, good luck.

 

[jjbodean1970]

since you have a case opened with Lexus already, you should request that the dealership trade you out of yours and into an identical one for zero cost to you. since the factory is involved they will oftentimes give the dealer extra units to help with a customer sat issue, ie, give them extra units to make up for the lost profits by doing you an even swap. i think doing an even trade is the easiest alternative to unwinding the original deal, probably too late for that. but an even trade is your best bet, imho

 

[greynolds]

I know you've got a lot on your plate but would you mind sharing with me (either publicaly or through pm) what was the source and fix for your vibration issue? I'm just concerned becuase I just picked up our 2006 and (knock on wood) it seems perfect but these kinds of things always worry me.

The problem seems to have been a combination of the tires getting flat spots while sitting waiting to be sold and the tires being out of balance. I didn't have it back in my possession long enough to truly confirm if all was well yet in that area.

Thanks and again, good luck.

Thanks - at this point some good luck has got to be coming my way and I suppose there may be a few things working in my favor in that department now:

1) It's technically in the shop now for the 4th time for the same problem (day of delivery, twice last Friday, and now yesterday). If the Lemon Law applies, I need to send Lexus a letter, but this ought to give me some leverage with them.

2) The General Manager of the dealership won't be back till Wednesday, which gets me closer to the 15 days that are the other limit on the Lemon Law - if it hits both limits, the dealership has got to be in a tough position to negotiate from.

Assuming they don't offer something better, I'm going to try suggesting the following:

1) Replacement vehicle - same silver color prefered, but I would accept white. If they can't find one with identical options, I'd be willing to split the price of a FACTORY rear DVD system, but not aftermarket (which they seem to prefer to offer). I don't want the nightvision thing.

2) Ditch GuidePoint / LoJack, just stick with the stock security system.

3) Ditch their overpriced road hazard tire warranty - I can get something cheaper elsewhere or just put money in the bank.

4) Ditch their prepaid service plan.

5) Add the 7 year / 100k mile $0 deductible Lexus Platinum extended warranty

6) Add a factory service manual set.

7) Free 5k, 10k, and 15k service - the 5k service is already free.

8) Keep the other items I purchased - AutoBahnd (protects the front end paint), Touch of Class (protects paint finish, and interior surfaces), and winter floor mats.

Keep the bottom line price the same. If they were to go for this, they would get $1689 out of me for the extended warranty which they were going to give me for free if I kept the original vehicle and they would be giving me the 10k (I don't think that's an expensive one) service beyond what was previously agreed to. So aside from whatever loss there is from taking back the original vehicle, they're pretty much breaking even.

Anyone see any flaws in this proposal? I'm willing to pay ~something~ for the extended warranty if they'll replace the vehicle - I wouldn't still expect it for free.

It seems to me that they ought to be able to recover at least some of their loss from the company they hired to install the GuidePoint device.

 

[jjbodean1970]

if the aftermkt system is the INVISION system, its a good one and preferred over the factory dvd system - gives you dual headrest dvds that can operate seperately. im not familiar with any other systems.

 

[greynolds]

if the aftermkt system is the INVISION system, its a good one and preferred over the factory dvd system - gives you dual headrest dvds that can operate seperately. im not familiar with any other systems.

Not sure who makes the aftermarket one that they go with, but it is a dual headrest system. I just don't want them doing any aftermarket installations given the problems I've gone through so far. Plus I really have no need for the rear DVD - I'm not married and don't have any kids.

 

[jjbodean1970]

then i would skip the dvd altogether. the factory one is kinda hokey imho. most of the lx 470s coming in now dont have the night view or the dvd anyway. just dont get sand dollar, remember!

 

[100 TD]

Don't forget to get the VIN of this vehicle and put it in this thread for future reference, if the vehicle is replaced. Then if someone else buys it at a later date and has problems and ends up on this forum, they will have a record of what has already happened to their vehicle, which may in the long run be to their advantage if problems arrise.

 

[Da Hapa]

1) Replacement vehicle - same silver color prefered, but I would accept white. If they can't find one with identical options, I'd be willing to split the price of a FACTORY rear DVD system, but not aftermarket (which they seem to prefer to offer). I don't want the nightvision thing.

2) Ditch GuidePoint / LoJack, just stick with the stock security system.

3) Ditch their overpriced road hazard tire warranty - I can get something cheaper elsewhere or just put money in the bank.

4) Ditch their prepaid service plan.

5) Add the 7 year / 100k mile $0 deductible Lexus Platinum extended warranty

6) Add a factory service manual set.

7) Free 5k, 10k, and 15k service - the 5k service is already free.

8) Keep the other items I purchased - AutoBahnd (protects the front end paint), Touch of Class (protects paint finish, and interior surfaces), and winter floor mats.

Keep the bottom line price the same. If they were to go for this, they would get $1689 out of me for the extended warranty which they were going to give me for free if I kept the original vehicle and they would be giving me the 10k (I don't think that's an expensive one) service beyond what was previously agreed to. So aside from whatever loss there is from taking back the original vehicle, they're pretty much breaking even.

Anyone see any flaws in this proposal? I'm willing to pay ~something~ for the extended warranty if they'll replace the vehicle - I wouldn't still expect it for free.

It seems to me that they ought to be able to recover at least some of their loss from the company they hired to install the GuidePoint device.

GR -

My 2 cents.

The factory DVD RES is a waste of money. It's not very good and it blocks rear visibility a bit. Moreover, technology in this realm is advancing so quick that even if you were planning on using it, it's probably going to be obsolete within months. You said you don't have kids but if you did, you could purchase a handheld unit that's every bit as tood for less than $150 now at Best Buy or Circuit City. I'd definitely not want that option if it were me.

I'd also pass on the Nightvision. It's value is to be debated and it's something else to break.

Finally, my experience is that the Touch of Class items that you're talking about are also a waste of money. If you keep a decent coat of wax on your car and you maintain the leathery, you're car will look very good 10 years from now without any problems. Our now 6-year old RX300 still looks brand new and trust me, neither the paint, the wood or the leather in the RX are anywhere near the quality of the LX.

These kind of paint protection, underbody protectant, security system gizmo's that are commonly added on when you see the F&I guys are the biggest profit makers (generally speaking) when you buy a new car.

As to the rest of your proposal.. this is my thought if it were me...

Give me a brand new LX in classic silver exactly the way mine was before you jacked it up. If they do that, I don't expect any other freebies but adding the extended warranty or throwing in some free service will go a long way towards making me happy and making me feel like I haven't been abused.

Again, only my 2 cents.

 

[jjbodean1970]

i do like the 3M invisible bras that are available. if i were to ever buy a brand new vehicle, i would definitely invest in one of those to protect from rock chips, love bugs, etc.

 

[Da Hapa]

i do like the 3M invisible bras that are available. if i were to ever buy a brand new vehicle, i would definitely invest in one of those to protect from rock chips, love bugs, etc.

And I'm yet to see a clear bra on any car (including quite a few very high dollar F cars, P cars, Lotus, Lambo's and Bentleys here at the weekly Crystal Cover car shoe) that look good to my eyes.

But again, opinions differ.

 

[bluestar]

GR -

My 2 cents.

The factory DVD RES is a waste of money. It's not very good and it blocks rear visibility a bit. Moreover, technology in this realm is advancing so quick that even if you were planning on using it, it's probably going to be obsolete within months. You said you don't have kids but if you did, you could purchase a handheld unit that's every bit as tood for less than $150 now at Best Buy or Circuit City. I'd definitely not want that option if it were me.

I'd also pass on the Nightvision. It's value is to be debated and it's something else to break.

Finally, my experience is that the Touch of Class items that you're talking about are also a waste of money. If you keep a decent coat of wax on your car and you maintain the leathery, you're car will look very good 10 years from now without any problems. Our now 6-year old RX300 still looks brand new and trust me, neither the paint, the wood or the leather in the RX are anywhere near the quality of the LX.

These kind of paint protection, underbody protectant, security system gizmo's that are commonly added on when you see the F&I guys are the biggest profit makers (generally speaking) when you buy a new car.

As to the rest of your proposal.. this is my thought if it were me...

Give me a brand new LX in classic silver exactly the way mine was before you jacked it up. If they do that, I don't expect any other freebies but adding the extended warranty or throwing in some free service will go a long way towards making me happy and making me feel like I haven't been abused.

Again, only my 2 cents.

Bar none, one of the best suggestions/ideas you have received here, and there have been plenty.

Way back on page 1, I had posted that you forget about the lower guys and head for the GM, Lexus Customer Care and an attorney. I had a premonition it wasn't going to be a slam dunk solution. I was even the first to mention using a Lemon Law to request for nothing less than a full replacement new LX470. Now you agree, and I am glad to see you come to that realization. Better late than never, I guess.

I'll say to heed Da Hapa's advice above here. Your best bet as some have suggested is to simply insist on an even exchange for another brand new LX. Get the dealership to take this truck off your hands. Its that simple. Don't debate any other option. Stick to ONE sole option and no matter what never waver. Very important....

Good luck and keep us posted....