New FJ40 Suspension Questions

[ravenholm]

Hi!
I converted from a lurker once I went ahead and bought an FJ40. This is my first post - thanks to all for such an amazing resource.

I've tried to do some good homework, but am at a loss regarding how to proceed with the suspension on my '40, so I thought I'd offer up some pictures and hope someone could weigh in.

I know this beast is a rust-bucket. The frame is sound. I do metalwork
for a living, so sheet-metal bodywork I can handle. However, I
know nothing whatsoever about cars, and figured it's time to learn.

Here is my problem. This thing leans to the back by what I think is about 2 inches. I'm not sure what the root cause is. It's a 350 conversion, so I know that is substantially lighter than the stock 2f. It also has a shackle reversal, and I have read that this can create a backwards slant depending how it is done. It has a lift, I have no idea of how much. There are 2" steel tube blocks under the rear shackle hangers.

I'd like the truck to be less tall, and will be sticking slightly smaller tires on it. I do some back-country driving, but am not a off-roader by any means, so I'm prioritizing highway manners over mountain climbing ability.

So, here's the truck. Am I correct that this lean is not normal?

Here is the front assembly:

Here is the front shackle hanger: (Notice the spring pack strap? All of the outermost straps on all four corners are bent like that. Any ideas why?)

Front spring hanger:

Rear assembly:

Rear shackle hanger w/ spacer block:

Rear shackle length:

Finally: Rear spring hanger. This part looks completely stock?

So: What strange perverted things have been done to the suspension?
How should I go about getting the cruiser closer to level?
Can I lessen the amount of lift without risking bottoming out my driveshafts? How do I tell?

Is this where an HFS "correction" lift kit comes in? Any thoughts on HFS vs. OME?

So many questions, but any observations would help me get going.

 

[Roboosfj40s]

My rig has a shackle reversal as well with anti-inversion shackles and oem springs. Real simular to your set up that was done by the PO Mine also sits low in the rear on a 4" lift. The only way I can see to level mine is 1. Go back to oem shackles and hangers which would be a lot of work on my part 2. longer shackle in the rear which I don't want because as I said I have oem springs and they would flatten out too much. It does ride very good for a truck. I have seen it posted before that it is normal for a 40 the squat in the rear some. I am not sure if it is normal or not. If you dropped the lift it should actually align your drive shafts up better un less your rig has caster shims installed in the front and it looks like it does in the pics. A lot of guys like the HFS suspension as do Black Diamond and others. I would like to redo mine with all new springs, shocks and keep my lift as we live in a flood prone area.

 

[DanS HJ-45]

Hi!
I converted from a lurker once I went ahead and bought an FJ40. This is my first post - thanks to all for such an amazing resource.

Welcome! Don't be shy, ESPECIALLY when you get to the sheet metal work. We LOVE pictures and stories about that.

I'd like the truck to be less tall, and will be sticking slightly smaller tires on it. I do some back-country driving, but am not a off-roader by any means, so I'm prioritizing highway manners over mountain climbing ability.

The two aren't necessarily exclusive. I know of a few 40s with a mild lift whose handling improved greatly over the stock suspension, and as far as I am concerned, taller, skinny tires make an absolute perfect combination for general driving.

Rear shackle hanger w/ spacer block:

SCARY! This picture right here tells me you are going to need to cut the POs work off and do something with it one way or the other.

Finally: Rear spring hanger. This part looks completely stock?

Looks stock to me.

Is this where an HFS "correction" lift kit comes in? Any thoughts on HFS vs. OME?

So many questions, but any observations would help me get going.

The problem with lifting the truck is that the caster angle of the front axle (the steering wheels) gets messed up. You can either install a shim to correct it, or buy a suspension that corrects for it in the new springs.

I LOVE OME. I can't stress that enough. I've installed a few OME lift kits on 40 series cruisers, and they have all been a major improvement over whatever was there before, be it stock or some other lift. The ride is better, they flex well if you ever go off road, and they are very high quality all around. If it were my truck, I'd cut off everything that isn't stock, and weld stock brackets back onto the frame, install an OME lift, get some "tall skinny" tires and be done with it. I haven't installed lifts from any other companies, but I've only heard of one complaint regarding the OME 40 lift, no idea what was up with that truck.

Search for 33x9.50 tires here, and pictures of them (I know it's listed in the FAQ) and you'll see the overall height of a 40 with them. The slight rubber overdrive from the taller tires is pretty nice on the road, at least to my senses it is. If you get skinny tires, the rolling mass on the circumference of the tire is greatly reduced, which takes away a lot of the problems with a bigger time, IMHO. (also, they look great with tall skinny tires--it's a fact!).

FWIW, our 40 with an OME lift rides as well as any vehicle I've ever owned, better than my '91 IFS truck, and I would be comfortable driving it each and every day. In fact, I did for a while before I worked all the kinks out of it and had to give it back to my Dad. Cruising along at 65mph is plenty comfortable with the OME suspension, even on some of our heavily "wintered" roads here in CO.

Dan

 

[Dooner]

Yeah Im a lurker too! My preference is to stay with shackle up front, the way Toyota engineered it. That being said, shackle reverse setups do ride better on the road, but they present problems off road. IMHO, if I were going to run a shackle reverse, I would set it up the way Toyota did the Mini Trucks, ditch the 6" plus tall front spring hangers and go with ones directly below the front cross member, with shackles that ride on a bushed tube through the frame. A set of aftermarket springs with the appropriate amound of lift would finish the front end off nicely. Of course you'll want to reset your pinion angle by remounting your spring perches as well.

As for the rear suspension, just about every Cruiser I have ever seen with stock springs settles about 2" lower in the rear. They can be leveled by adding a small leaf to the rear pack, not an "Add-A-Leaf", but a short leaf that will help out with the weight without making it too stiff. The spring pack straps were likely bent by a past owner trying to "free up" the springs, to make them flex better. One thing to do right away is to cut off those lift "blocks" that the past owner put into the rear spring hangers, and weld either a factory style mount back on the frame or put some bushed tubes through the frame in the back too. If you get those aftermarket springs, with around 4" of lift, you will be sitting about the same as you are right now. Again, as with the front end, you can rotate the axle to set the pinion angle with new spring perches, right now it appears that your dif is rotated too high.

All and all its a cool rig, I like the high steer, spring under suspension, I like the ol Con Ferr Shackles, U bolt skid plates, rear disk brakes (looks like there was brake fluid leaking onto the tire - cause for the conversion?) and Chevy V8
I Like it!

 

[ravenholm]

Dan,
Thanks for the info.
That spacer block is pretty ugly, but the welds are sound. When you say "scary" what level of scaried should I be?
I was figuring I'd do away with it since it looks like the hack job it is, but if there is a safety concern could you explain further?

Where might I find stock suspension hangers, etc? Since these parts are integral to a frame, I haven't found them at CCOT, SOR, or a few of the other usual suspects. Perhaps I'm not searching for the right thing? I'm not totally sure what a lot of these bits should properly be called.

Do you feel that if I just whacked off everything that's not stock and put a 2.5' OME lift I'd run into drive shaft length issues?

I love the look of the 33x9.5s. Having a bit of a time sourcing them from my normal tire spots.... But I plan to go that direction.

Best,

Guy

 

[DanS HJ-45]

Dan,
Thanks for the info.
That spacer block is pretty ugly, but the welds are sound. When you say "scary" what level of scaried should I be?
I was figuring I'd do away with it since it looks like the hack job it is, but if there is a safety concern could you explain further?

My beef with a square tube spacer like that is that it can collapse. If it was gusetted internally so that the square couldn't "fall over" I'd feel better about it. There's a lot more side loading on your suspension that you suspect. I'm uploading a video on youtube so you can see the suspension flexing as I type. Will take a few hours to get it uploaded though. I'll try to edit this post with the url in the morning.

EDIT--

Where might I find stock suspension hangers, etc? Since these parts are integral to a frame, I haven't found them at CCOT, SOR, or a few of the other usual suspects. Perhaps I'm not searching for the right thing? I'm not totally sure what a lot of these bits should properly be called.

Call Justin at Redline Land Cruisers. I know he cut all of those bits off of a 40 series truck within the past month, and they are probably good enough still to reuse. If not, SOR can get them, but the easiest way is to find someone who is parting out a 40 (3_puppies might be a good guy to check with), or anyone who is doing major suspension mods to their 40 (either Shackle Reversal, or linking it--more common for the "hardcore" section guys to be doing that).

The good news for such a job is that those aren't too likely to rust out even if the rest of the truck does, and if the truck is in an accident and the frame is trashed, the suspension brackets are likely fine. Also, I suspect that you still have the holes where the rivets were when your were removed, so you can relocate the replacements accurately, easily.

Do you feel that if I just whacked off everything that's not stock and put a 2.5' OME lift I'd run into drive shaft length issues?

Good question. The first one to ask is if your driveshafts were lengthened for the lift? MANY trucks got lift kits without lengthened driveshafts, we ran our OME setup that way without a problem for a while (we got new driveshafts later when we rebuilt the whole truck), but you'd have to measure your current driveshafts as they may have been modified when the SBC went in. But I'd bet you would be fine either way.

I love the look of the 33x9.5s. Having a bit of a time sourcing them from my normal tire spots.... But I plan to go that direction.

Yeah, they are apparently hard to find right now, but absolutely worth it. There's other options out there that are close to the same too (255/85 for example) so I'm sure you can come up with something.

Dan

 

[fieldsken1]

where is the rear spacer??? what am i missing??

 

[ravenholm]

Dan,
Thanks for the follow up - I really appreciate the information and sources. Look forward to the video, too - although I think I see what you're saying re. collapse from side-load. If it's gonna be a while before I can scrape pennies together for a new lift kit, I'll gusset those blocks just to be safe. I'll give Justin a ring and see what I can get ahold of. I also promise I won't be shy when I get into the sheet-metal work!

Roboos,
Thanks for the comparison shot of your cruiser - very helpful.
It seems like my front wheels stick out WAY further than yours. I had assumed this was due to the shackle reversal, but I see you also have a SA and your wheels are in a more normal location. I wonder if there is a way to move mine back? Or is this a side-effect of the SBC conversion?

Dooner,
Thanks also for the kind words about my rig. I love it too ... it's crazy, and rusty, and noisy, and SO MUCH FUN. I think you're correct that the fluid leaking came from the old drums rather than the new discs. I filled the master cylinder 2 weeks ago, and can't measure any discernible drop in fluid levels, so I don't think I have a leak ATM.

Best,
Guy

 

[fieldsken1]

hey if you choose to go with a black diamond kit i have a few 50% off coupons and you can have one if that helps. let me know i live in vancouver wa

 

[Dooner]

where is the rear spacer??? what am i missing??

- There's a section of square tubing welded between the frame and the rear spring hangers

- I totally agree with Dan, there is a ton of leverage on spring hangers, they could collapse, tear off or even rip in half

- Guy, yeah it's pretty common for those old LC wheel cylinders to leak. Back in the 80's and 90's I used to hone them out and replace the seals which is a good fix, but no where near as good as a disk conversion.

Ive gotten a bunch of stuff from these guys. They have just about anything that you can think of for doing your own fab work, fast shipping too

FJ40 Leaf Spring Hanger - RuffStuff Specialties

 

[fieldsken1]

- There's a section of square tubing welded between the frame and the rear spring hangers

- I totally agree with Dan, there is a ton of leverage on spring hangers, they could collapse, tear off or even rip in half

- Guy, yeah it's pretty common for those old LC wheel cylinders to leak. Back in the 80's and 90's I used to hone them out and replace the seals which is a good fix, but no where near as good as a disk conversion.

Ive gotten a bunch of stuff from these guys. They have just about anything that you can think of for doing your own fab work, fast shipping too

FJ40 Leaf Spring Hanger - RuffStuff Specialties

now i see it duh i was looking at something else

 

[Josie'sLandCruiser]

Hi All:

Contact Tim @ Land Cruiser Specialties. He can help you out.

Honestly, it looks like an old 40 Series to me!

The square tube under the rear shackle hangers is just a way to get some more (mild) lift. As long as the welding job is good, and square tube is thick enough (at least 3/16ths of an inch) it should should be fine.

Good luck!

Alan

 

[ravenholm]

Hi Alan,
Actually, I just spoke with Tim - he's going to help me pull the Powertrax locker in the back and replace the original spider gears. (I know, i know, but I need to be able to let other people drive this, and explaining how to coast around turns at low speed and what else to watch out for with a locker just doesn't work. Someone is going
to get in real trouble.) He's going to take a look at the suspension situation as well. The tube is proper thick - 3/16ths exactly.

Dooner - thanks for the great source!

fieldsken1 - I appreciate your offer and will keep it in mind when the times comes.

Thanks all.

Best,
Guy

 

[handcannon]

Dan,
It seems like my front wheels stick out WAY further than yours. I had assumed this was due to the shackle reversal, but I see you also have a SA and your wheels are in a more normal location. I wonder if there is a way to move mine back? Or is this a side-effect of the SBC conversion?
Best,
Guy

It appears from your pics that when the shackle reversal was done the springs were reversed also. The spring pin is not centered on the 40 series springs. There is about a 3" offset.

The stock springs have a military wrap on the spring mount end. This keeps the springs together if the main leaf happens to break. The main leaf has the eye for the spring bushings and holds that end solid to the frame. When no other mods are done to the springs, only a shackle reversal, this is the correct thing to do from a safety aspect.

Doing this also gives you about 3" of extra wheelbase, which the position of your front axle/wheels shows. My personal opinion is that the extra wheelbase is a good thing. It does make the position of the front wheels, in comparison to the fender, look funny, which is what you are seeing.

It is possible to move the front axle back to original position, with a bit of work. You would need to take the spring packs apart, re-drill the spring pin hole in the main and military wrap leaves, and flip the rest of the leaves to match up with the new spring pin hole. This may also require re-working the position of the steering gearbox (assuming you have a saginaw gearbox conversion along with the shackle reversal, forgot to check) to keep the relay rod (correct name?) close to parallel to the tie rod to control bump steer.

On to another subject. The rear setting about 2" low is common. I checked mine before messing with the stock setup. I used the forklift at work to lift the rear of the 40 until the rain gutter on the roof was parallel to the floor. I had lifted the rear end exactly 2".

I would guess that the reason the rear has the blocks is to help compensate for the lift in the front that was caused by the shackle reversal. Gusset the blocks real good, make sure the steering and brakes are safe, then drive it for a while before making any decisions about more mods. This will give you some time to get acquainted with the 40 and a chance to decide what it needs to make it work for you.

Enjoy!!

Don