My front end has deteriorated can you help me name the usual suspects. (1 Viewer)

[SteadfastRocky]

I'm quite sure that I have an excessive movement somewhere, in a ball joint or a control arm or some bushings or a rod end, etc. And probably in multiple of the above.

The experience is like a rattling, not a little rattle but a rattling motion of major weight bearing components.

Alignment, balance, and brakes are an exacerbating factor, and maybe if those were perfect the underlying problem would be asymptomatic, but I am sure that it's not just any or all of those three.

There's a lot of anecdotes of vibrations that are independent of large components that have plagued the GX and 4runner platform for years, some manifest at 20k some manifest at 100k.

If you are feeling feedback through the wheel, the rack isn't the first place I'd look, I'd do what Richard and I said, even stuff like tire and wheel balance on these trucks makes an absolutely huge difference in road manners in Toyotas. I've had to go to 2-3 tire shops before to get a proper balance.

The diagnostics of this are pretty simple start with a jack/jack stands and a pry bar, and push and pull on stuff. Nut and bolt the whole thing and get a base line of the mechanical condition.

I've had that feeling when the UCA bushings wore out.

Are you running aftermarkets? Which ones if so?

 

[yz125]

FSM procedure for steering rack removal:

1. Straighten front wheels.

2. Remove front wheels.

3. Remove engine.

Yikes.

 

[Rednexus]

Here's an example for a 5th gen 4Runner. I wouldn't replace the rack/bushings unless you've verified they are the culprit.

Steering Rack Replacement Step-By-Step DIY Guide For 5th Gen 4Runner

Steering Rack Replacement Step-By-Step DIY Guide For 5th Gen 4Runner: Replace steering rack system after hard impacts and rock crawling on the trails

trail4runner.com

 

[yz125]

The 10-12 steering flutter TSB details a rack removal method by removing the front diff and jacking the motor up like you do for the LCA's. There is one first hand report online of a replacement by deflecting the diff and the motor without removing either.

Yeah I better hope it's not rack related cause we're all screwed when these 460's do need their rack out for any reason. I could almost regret buying a GX over this, I thought it might be a modern truck without the modern problems, and yet here's this s***.

 

[Rednexus]

Even if it's more work than a 470 it's still likely doable in a day for a DIY. I also found that some of the things folks said needed to come out really didn't - after pulling the inner tie rod ends and oil filter, the rack slipped right out. I did the job by myself without a helper, although i'm fairly advanced on the DIY scale and have lots of tools that made it easier.

Bushings in general are a wear item, even though Toyota rubber bushings are generally high quality, they'll eventually dry rot and/or wear out like on any other high-mileage vehicle. Every 4Runner/GX will eventually need steering rack bushings, along with UCA/LCA bushings (front and rear), tie rod ends, sway bar bushings, etc.

 

[yz125]

I'm an intermediate shade tree mechanic, I'm familiar with most suspension work done from the side of a vehicle, and I managed the valley leak repair, but I've never got into the heavy stuff like moving the transmission or diff.

Cutting bolts is apparently already an accepted practice for getting this rack change done, so I'm going to think about and look at whether there's a possible cut in place method for doing these bushings without rack removal.

 

[r2m]

Are you running aftermarkets? Which ones if so?

Icon UCA's and shocks.

 

[yz125]

This may be basic knowledge to some of you, but I'll add my notes here for the public anyway:

FJ Cruisers, 5th Gen 4Runners, the GX 460, and of course the Prado 150 all share this rack design it is mostly the same beast on all of them. It's possible that the 460's V8 packaging makes it the hardest of all, but not enough reports yet to confirm. An FJ Cruiser owner reported achieving it with bolt cutting and no diff or motor dismount.

Notably, I found one report somewhere of rack bushings fixing a very particular symptom that is part of mine's syndrome, which is when traveling at a decent speed or freeway and you hit a minor bump you get a firm shiver in the whole rear of the vehicle that shakes the back seat. I figured that was going to be rear shocks but if it's true that gives me hope of a unified theory of the problem coming back to these rack bushings.

Also, to the point of many in this thread, it's not clear that what I have is something Toyota would actually call a problem. There are reports of people who notice this movement and then either compare it to another truck and decide it's normal, or get the whole rack replaced with OEM and find the new one has just as much movement.

There is a 65 page thread on club lexus about freeway vibrations though, and I think it might be a predilection of the vehicle that comes back to Toyota's choice for a soft mounted rack. Yes, one way to get around it would be to painstakingly balance and align the wheels and perfect the brakes to try and not upset the rack in the first place, but if I can get there I would rather have a solution at the origin that lets an unbalanced wheel act like an unbalanced wheel, or a warped brake just act like a warped brake, and not have any one of these common problems setting off an entire front end upset like they do.

 

[yz125]

Yeah I looked at it more today and I'm giving up. Easier to try and treat the alignment balance and brake triggers than to go after these bushings.

 

[Rednexus]

You can check the bushings for wear very easily (<10 min without tools). Have someone move the steering wheel side to side in the parked rig and see if the rack also moves side to side. It should have almost no play if the bushings are good. If it moves more than a tiny amount you need bushings. Mine had almost an inch of play.

 

[yz125]

You can check the bushings for wear very easily (<10 min without tools). Have someone move the steering wheel side to side in the parked rig and see if the rack also moves side to side. It should have almost no play if the bushings are good. If it moves more than a tiny amount you need bushings. Mine had almost an inch of play.

Yeah I did that today. It's about 1/4 or 3/8 inch movement and you can see a crack in the rubber around each bushing open up when extending in either direction. Not like a deep crack or a rotted out look, but a crack nonetheless.

Very inconclusive result. Not great, not terrible.

 

[Rednexus]

That seems like a lot of movement to me - I'd personally lean towards replacing. The rack should be solid as the bushings are intended to provide only a small amount of flex.

My GX drove drastically better with a new rack.

 

[yz125]

That seems like a lot of movement to me - I'd personally lean towards replacing.

I agree, but I'm stumped by the difficulty. Gonna sit on it for a while and see if I can hide the problem otherwise. I do believe it would be the key satisfying change to get it done.

Maybe try angling my air hammer in and thinking about in place replacement strategies. The 100's have an on truck method for bushing replacement, but a lot more room for it too.

 

[re_guderian]

Not sure what the 470 OEM rack bushings look like, but the early 100 series ones we're designed for insulation from road vibrations, not for secure mounting. They only had a few raised pads of rubber around the outside of the cylinder that made contact with the rack steel cylinder walls. Compare that to the poly bushings which made 100% contact all the way around the cylinder. Much more stable, much less rack movement.

 

[Rednexus]

They are pretty solid on the 120/150 racks - see photo of mine below. It has an inner metal sleeve with rubber all of the way around it, filling the void between the rack bolt and the rack body. It looks like the 100 Series rack mounts totally different than a 120/150 rack (more similar to the 1st Gen Tundra/3rd gen 4Runner rack). The 200 series appears to use a similar system as the 120/150, although the 200 rack is much beefier.

With how the 120/150 racks mount, you'll have some very weird handling/steering behavior if the rack bushings go bad, as the front tires will be able to move on their own quite a bit.

 

[Washingtontaco]

Be aware that crappy Toyota front suspension and steering is from accelerated wear if you have modified your GX.

Your factory wheel/tire assembly weighed in at 65 lbs. If you go the standard 33" tire and wheel combo the weight is now closer to 90lbs and if you installed negative offset wheels then you extended the arm at which the wheel/tire assembly is applying that force.

Food for thought.

 

[yz125]

Be aware that crappy Toyota front suspension and steering is from accelerated wear if you have modified your GX.

Your factory wheel/tire assembly weighed in at 65 lbs. If you go the standard 33" tire and wheel combo the weight is now closer to 90lbs and if you installed negative offset wheels then you extended the arm at which the wheel/tire assembly is applying that force.

Food for thought.

True. Mine is all stock though.

 

[r2m]

Be aware that crappy Toyota front suspension and steering is from accelerated wear if you have modified your GX.

Your factory wheel/tire assembly weighed in at 65 lbs. If you go the standard 33" tire and wheel combo the weight is now closer to 90lbs and if you installed negative offset wheels then you extended the arm at which the wheel/tire assembly is applying that force.

Food for thought.

I'm going to prequalify my next statement with a lot of "knocking on wood", along with praying I'm not speaking too soon.
I've had my setup for over 5 years with about 60,000 miles on the clock since we purchased and did all my upgrades. We did all the mods within a couple of months of ownership so almost the entire time of ownership it has been very close to it's current state (AND we LOVE IT!!!).

Pertaining to just the suspension and linkages, as of now the only issue I've had has been bushings going out on the Icon UCA's one time and having to rebuild both Icon front shocks twice (the shocks will probably need rebuilding every couple years). I did break a bolt on the right rear trailing arm and had to pound it back into shape with a baby sledge hammer to get the flanges straight to fit the trailing arm and align it to insert a new hardened bolt, but that was me going through a rock garden.
Steering, ball joints and everything else has been fine so far. And I should probably qualify that by saying that I DO do a good amount of off roading as many of the posts on my build thread will attest to (and even more that I don't post), so it's not just a Costco runner or highway cruiser.

One note is I try never (or avoid when possible) to turn the front wheels when not rolling. Just cranking on the steering when the vehicle is stationary may not feel heavy at the steering wheel, but it puts a lot of torque on the front end, e.g. steering linkage especially with large tires. I always try to be rolling when I start cranking the steering wheel. Yeah, there are times when off roading you gotta do what you gotta do, but it is by far the exception than the rule when I drive.

But I may be the exception and been very fortunate with my setup so far.

 

[SteadfastRocky]

I'm going to prequalify my next statement with a lot of "knocking on wood", along with praying I'm not speaking too soon.
I've had my setup for over 5 years with about 60,000 miles on the clock since we purchased and did all my upgrades. We did all the mods within a couple of months of ownership so almost the entire time of ownership it has been very close to it's current state (AND we LOVE IT!!!).

Pertaining to just the suspension and linkages, as of now the only issue I've had has been bushings going out on the Icon UCA's one time and having to rebuild both Icon front shocks twice (the shocks will probably need rebuilding every couple years). I did break a bolt on the right rear trailing arm and had to pound it back into shape with a baby sledge hammer to get the flanges straight to fit the trailing arm and align it to insert a new hardened bolt, but that was me going through a rock garden.
Steering, ball joints and everything else has been fine so far. And I should probably qualify that by saying that I DO do a good amount of off roading as many of the posts on my build thread will attest to (and even more that I don't post), so it's not just a Costco runner or highway cruiser.

One note is I try never (or avoid when possible) to turn the front wheels when not rolling. Just cranking on the steering when the vehicle is stationary may not feel heavy at the steering wheel, but it puts a lot of torque on the front end, e.g. steering linkage especially with large tires. I always try to be rolling when I start cranking the steering wheel. Yeah, there are times when off roading you gotta do what you gotta do, but it is by far the exception than the rule when I drive.

But I may be the exception and been very fortunate with my setup so far.

This is my general experience as well. 40k on our set up, and while some parts are in need of a refresh (Uniballs on the UCAs), the steering on this rig with 170k still feels as good as ever.

The number one issue I have found with vibrations in both the Tacoma, the 4runner and the GX are tire balance/tire pressure related, you can not get away with slight imbalance on these trucks. The tightness of the steering in these trucks I believe is why you feel it, when in others, you may not feel it.

The rest of the crappy steering feel seems to be related to intermediate shaft bearings failing and alignments.

There is no doubt stuff wears out, and I am sure that to an extent modifications can accelerate it, but driving style can lessen the impact as you indicate and it can also increase the wear.

 

[Rednexus]

I suppose my experience is a bit different as I replaced everything in the front and rear suspension around the 140-150K mark, but I've overall found the front end components on these rigs to be very good. They just don't last for ever, by 130-150K I'd personally count on going through the entire suspension/front end/etc and replacing everything (likely including the wheel bearings). My rig is only on 32's, but has a 2.5/2" lift and drives exceptional well - just as good as a new vehicle.

When my buddy wanted to lift is 1st Gen Tundra I pushed him to do the same thing. Everything was replaced (ironically except the steering rack, and the rear leaf springs). The truck drove amazingly well. Suspension parts of these vehicles are inexpensive and easy to replace - unless you have a low mileage rig, I'd count on doing the complete suspension refresh and enjoying a "new" rig. My whole refresh cost around $3500 in parts, including the Stage 2 Ironman FCP lift. The only thing I didn't touch was the panhard bar.