man that sucks! He did not do you right. Finding a good mechanic is difficult. Were any of those mud offers close to you?
Mechanic Fixed Head Gasket, At Completion Tells Me I May Require Engine Rebuild (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter 80 Life
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
- Thread starter
- #62
No, but I am sure if I joined Rising Sun's LC enthusiast club located near me I would find endless help. I will get on that.
@80 Life From what I'm reading you are navigating this situation well. There are bound to be a lot of emotions flowing when you consider certain angles of this situation but your overall perspective seems well suited to help you make the best you can of this and move on from it as soon as possible.
I'll be interested in what others say but I'm hesitant to make many observations on your situation with the mechanic (I'm not a lawyer) or the videos (I don't trust phone microphones for engine noises, etc.).
I will throw out that it seems possible to my ear that it could be a valve train noise. Part of my saying that is hopeful optimism as it would be a pretty easy repair if they have just mixed up your valve shims. Sticking valves can create extra lash noise too but you'd be down compression on a cylinder which you'd probably notice in how it runs. It may be worth trying to rule this out before going down more involved/difficult paths.
Just speculating here but if that's a rod knock that wasn't there when you dropped it off I wonder what the likely causes of it may be. One could be that water leaked into a piston while it was at the shop and they cranked it in that state, thus causing hyrdolocking damage. Another possible scenario could be that they dropped something into a cylinder and then ran the engine which allowed contact that caused the damage. I'm sure there are others but in the case of that second scenario there is typically visible damage on the piston top and head so sticking a borescope into the cylinders for an inspection could be worth the time it takes.
Someone in person, with the experience/skill required and perhaps using a stethoscope, may be able to help you narrow down the source of the noise a lot. You can try this with a really long screwdriver or similar. Put the handle against your ear and the tip of the screw driver on different spots on the engine to see what it sounds like. Beware fan belts/blades/etc.!
Pulling the spark plugs one at a time while it's idling to see if it changes the knocking noise could be an easy way to identify if it's from one piston/rod and which one it is. Sometimes you'll have a dramatic shift in noise with a rod knock.
Hope you get good news soon!
I'll be interested in what others say but I'm hesitant to make many observations on your situation with the mechanic (I'm not a lawyer) or the videos (I don't trust phone microphones for engine noises, etc.).
I will throw out that it seems possible to my ear that it could be a valve train noise. Part of my saying that is hopeful optimism as it would be a pretty easy repair if they have just mixed up your valve shims. Sticking valves can create extra lash noise too but you'd be down compression on a cylinder which you'd probably notice in how it runs. It may be worth trying to rule this out before going down more involved/difficult paths.
Just speculating here but if that's a rod knock that wasn't there when you dropped it off I wonder what the likely causes of it may be. One could be that water leaked into a piston while it was at the shop and they cranked it in that state, thus causing hyrdolocking damage. Another possible scenario could be that they dropped something into a cylinder and then ran the engine which allowed contact that caused the damage. I'm sure there are others but in the case of that second scenario there is typically visible damage on the piston top and head so sticking a borescope into the cylinders for an inspection could be worth the time it takes.
Someone in person, with the experience/skill required and perhaps using a stethoscope, may be able to help you narrow down the source of the noise a lot. You can try this with a really long screwdriver or similar. Put the handle against your ear and the tip of the screw driver on different spots on the engine to see what it sounds like. Beware fan belts/blades/etc.!
Pulling the spark plugs one at a time while it's idling to see if it changes the knocking noise could be an easy way to identify if it's from one piston/rod and which one it is. Sometimes you'll have a dramatic shift in noise with a rod knock.
Hope you get good news soon!
- Thread starter
- #64
Thanks for the advice.
It is coming from cylinder 2 based on pulling the sparks, there is a dramatic shift in noise.
Is there a way the machine shop could have screwed this up?
The new mechanic I have been talking to has all the same ideas as you regarding the shims and the sticking valve as well as some others so I am hopeful.
Cheers.
Based on the fact that the noise changed dramatically, and I assume quietens, when the plug wire is off of number two it does seem likely to me that this is a rod knock for #2. Assuming that the mech's report of good lower bearings was accurate then the facts, as I understand them, are pointing to a knock on the upper/small end of the connecting rod, where it connects to the piston wrist pin.
If this noise was due to too much lash/space on a valve (caused by too little shim or stem stickiness) I wouldn't expect the noise to change with removal of a plug wire/fire on the cylinder.
When you pull the plug wire you stop the explosion and thus remove the downward pressure pushing on the top of the piston in cyl. #2. The piston can then float through it's transition from up to down travel more gently. When the explosion is present the piston is forced down pretty hard by the combustion gas expansion. Depending on ignition timing the explosion can happen when the piston is fairly slack, or being pulled down, which will lead to this knock as the piston quickly passes through the slop and bangs down into position. Think about if you were pulling the piston down with your hand. You'd be pulling it with your fingers around the wrist pin but then the combustion gasses would show up and move the piston from being pulled by your fingers to it being jammed into your palm, with a slap (knock).
The most obvious way that I can think of the mech. causing this would be to have left something in cyl. #2. For example, what if a nut was dropped into the lower half of the intake manifold while the manifold top was off? That nut could have then been sucked into the engine in cyl#2 and been too tall to allow the piston to reach the top of it's travel without impacting the nut as the nut hit the cylinder head. The nut could then blow out of the exhaust valves at some point but would leave the knock and some pretty obvious marks on the piston top and cylinder head that a borescope could see.
Hyrdolocking is harder to see as the mechanics fault, if that's indeed what happened. It will also pretty much be impossible to know for sure that hydrolocking is what happened, at this point, though there may be clues that help increase it's likelihood as the cause. If #2 was the cylinder impacted by the HG failure and saw some steam cleaning before the HG change that could help increase the likelihood that it was hydrolocking that caused this. Typically it's #1 or #6 that are impacted by failed HGs but #2 is certainly a possibility for this. If the #2 piston top is visibly cleaner than the other piston tops then that means it was likely steam cleaned by coolant leaking via the HG and that the mech didn't clean the piston tops as part of the HG work. If #2 looks no different it doesn't rule out hydrolocking as the cause but could mean that the mech cleaned the pistons or that the hg didn't leak long enough for steam cleaning but let go and filled the piston pretty quickly, still causing the hydrolocking.
I hope the above is helpful in getting you up to speed on a few things that could be going on. My armchair leanings may be off the mark and you may end up going in another direction but understanding the above ideas can help you stay more involved in the diagnosis and decision making process ahead.
I look forward to hearing what a mechanic that looks it over in person.
If this noise was due to too much lash/space on a valve (caused by too little shim or stem stickiness) I wouldn't expect the noise to change with removal of a plug wire/fire on the cylinder.
When you pull the plug wire you stop the explosion and thus remove the downward pressure pushing on the top of the piston in cyl. #2. The piston can then float through it's transition from up to down travel more gently. When the explosion is present the piston is forced down pretty hard by the combustion gas expansion. Depending on ignition timing the explosion can happen when the piston is fairly slack, or being pulled down, which will lead to this knock as the piston quickly passes through the slop and bangs down into position. Think about if you were pulling the piston down with your hand. You'd be pulling it with your fingers around the wrist pin but then the combustion gasses would show up and move the piston from being pulled by your fingers to it being jammed into your palm, with a slap (knock).
The most obvious way that I can think of the mech. causing this would be to have left something in cyl. #2. For example, what if a nut was dropped into the lower half of the intake manifold while the manifold top was off? That nut could have then been sucked into the engine in cyl#2 and been too tall to allow the piston to reach the top of it's travel without impacting the nut as the nut hit the cylinder head. The nut could then blow out of the exhaust valves at some point but would leave the knock and some pretty obvious marks on the piston top and cylinder head that a borescope could see.
Hyrdolocking is harder to see as the mechanics fault, if that's indeed what happened. It will also pretty much be impossible to know for sure that hydrolocking is what happened, at this point, though there may be clues that help increase it's likelihood as the cause. If #2 was the cylinder impacted by the HG failure and saw some steam cleaning before the HG change that could help increase the likelihood that it was hydrolocking that caused this. Typically it's #1 or #6 that are impacted by failed HGs but #2 is certainly a possibility for this. If the #2 piston top is visibly cleaner than the other piston tops then that means it was likely steam cleaned by coolant leaking via the HG and that the mech didn't clean the piston tops as part of the HG work. If #2 looks no different it doesn't rule out hydrolocking as the cause but could mean that the mech cleaned the pistons or that the hg didn't leak long enough for steam cleaning but let go and filled the piston pretty quickly, still causing the hydrolocking.
I hope the above is helpful in getting you up to speed on a few things that could be going on. My armchair leanings may be off the mark and you may end up going in another direction but understanding the above ideas can help you stay more involved in the diagnosis and decision making process ahead.
I look forward to hearing what a mechanic that looks it over in person.
Last edited:
If crank journals are "perfect" and rod bearings are not damaged, it's NOT a rod knock. Assuming he checked clearance at least with plastigage. Do you know if he considered the wrist pin?
The weirdest rod knock source I EVER saw was a cracked connecting rod. The crack was above one of the rod bolts so it was hanging on with one rod bolt basically. A catastrophic failure waiting to happen. Never saw that again in 23 years.
Was there any metal present in the pan or oil filter?
It's easy for us to judge the mechanic as we were not there but, I know I would have been held accountable by my management if I turned something out that sounded worse than when it came in. That would have been rework on ME that the company had to make right. If I put parts in that were not needed.......rework on me. If I took too long.......excessive labor on me. Unless I could justify it. Four reworks in a 6 month period and I was looking for another job.
Nice guy or not, it sounds like it's time for another shop or this guy to eat the cost and fix it right. Not all the cost. The unnecessary costs to you.
The weirdest rod knock source I EVER saw was a cracked connecting rod. The crack was above one of the rod bolts so it was hanging on with one rod bolt basically. A catastrophic failure waiting to happen. Never saw that again in 23 years.
Was there any metal present in the pan or oil filter?
It's easy for us to judge the mechanic as we were not there but, I know I would have been held accountable by my management if I turned something out that sounded worse than when it came in. That would have been rework on ME that the company had to make right. If I put parts in that were not needed.......rework on me. If I took too long.......excessive labor on me. Unless I could justify it. Four reworks in a 6 month period and I was looking for another job.
Nice guy or not, it sounds like it's time for another shop or this guy to eat the cost and fix it right. Not all the cost. The unnecessary costs to you.
With regard to the above with hydrolock. I saw a Jeep 6 cyl with one rod bent into a slight S shape. It didn't knock but you could see it did not come up to top dead center anymore. It wasn't obvious unless you looked for it. That was an odd one because the damage is usually much worse.
I would guess that your head is spinning with all our advice and armchair troubleshooting. Regardless, I wish you luck with this. Sorry you are going through it.
I would guess that your head is spinning with all our advice and armchair troubleshooting. Regardless, I wish you luck with this. Sorry you are going through it.
There is a small shop in Colorado called Colorado Toyota Specialists. Should be able to help you out. They are in Conifer.
- Thread starter
- #69
Thanks, I called them yesterday.
Woman on the phone said they aren’t taking any Land Cruiser’s at the moment because they take too long to work on. Thought that was kind of odd. She took down my info anyways and said the shop would give me a call that afternoon if not Monday cause they are closed on Fridays. Have not received that call back yet.
powderpig
SILVER Star
Well sorry to hear this story. But is one I have heard many times.
Before I ever remove the head on a head gasket job, I do a compression test first. While the spark plugs are out
I inspect with a Bore scope. This does not take too long and can tell me tons of info about the engine. I also can tell if I need to
rebuild or If I can just do the head gasket. Diagnosis is key. I can then inform the customer as what is needed.
If I suspect piston slap in an engine, or a rod knock. I remove the oil filter and cut it open to see if it has any metal. I use a
Magnet to see if any metal I find in the filter is Ferrous or not. If not is is more than likley the pistons that is starting to mess up. If it is ferrous
metal, along with aluminum it is more than likely the piston digging into the cylinder wall. This is far quicker than doing an Oil Analysis. Then again, with
a knocking noise, do a compression test, and bore scope look.
Why a compression test. I am looking for one or two cylinders with lower compression. If all of them the same, it may be in the bearings. Typically I see one or two pistons with low pressure. Occasionally I see low but similar pressures across the 6 pistons. With the bore scope I see that oil is being pulled on top of the pistons and increasing the oil pressure. I do not do Cylinder leak down, as the bore scope will tell me more with out the hassle of
doing the Leak down test.
Very rarely do rod and main bearings on the 1FZ go bad. And they usually are more than 1 bearing set. Even at 250K or more. Wrist pins are not an issue either. Piston slap is the main Issue with the knock I have seen in the 1FZ in well over 26 years now of working on and a couple of hundred 1FZ'z.
Typically for the Rods And /Or mains go bad is oil starvation, either do to a roll over or putting it on it's side. Bad engine oil can also be an issue.
Anyhow, I need to edit my profile and will do so, but I am no longer on the Front range, so I can not help you. But the Rising Sun club has
a good range of people that know of a few good shops.
So what would I recommend. Find a different shop.
Before I ever remove the head on a head gasket job, I do a compression test first. While the spark plugs are out
I inspect with a Bore scope. This does not take too long and can tell me tons of info about the engine. I also can tell if I need to
rebuild or If I can just do the head gasket. Diagnosis is key. I can then inform the customer as what is needed.
If I suspect piston slap in an engine, or a rod knock. I remove the oil filter and cut it open to see if it has any metal. I use a
Magnet to see if any metal I find in the filter is Ferrous or not. If not is is more than likley the pistons that is starting to mess up. If it is ferrous
metal, along with aluminum it is more than likely the piston digging into the cylinder wall. This is far quicker than doing an Oil Analysis. Then again, with
a knocking noise, do a compression test, and bore scope look.
Why a compression test. I am looking for one or two cylinders with lower compression. If all of them the same, it may be in the bearings. Typically I see one or two pistons with low pressure. Occasionally I see low but similar pressures across the 6 pistons. With the bore scope I see that oil is being pulled on top of the pistons and increasing the oil pressure. I do not do Cylinder leak down, as the bore scope will tell me more with out the hassle of
doing the Leak down test.
Very rarely do rod and main bearings on the 1FZ go bad. And they usually are more than 1 bearing set. Even at 250K or more. Wrist pins are not an issue either. Piston slap is the main Issue with the knock I have seen in the 1FZ in well over 26 years now of working on and a couple of hundred 1FZ'z.
Typically for the Rods And /Or mains go bad is oil starvation, either do to a roll over or putting it on it's side. Bad engine oil can also be an issue.
Anyhow, I need to edit my profile and will do so, but I am no longer on the Front range, so I can not help you. But the Rising Sun club has
a good range of people that know of a few good shops.
So what would I recommend. Find a different shop.
I just checked with them. They are backed up with several cruisers right now. They only do a couple at a time. Sorry I didn't know they were that backed up.
- Thread starter
- #73
Dang, the legend himself.
Wish you were still working out here on Cruiser's, but happy you found paradise in Arizona/Alaska.
Hope that injury is healing up well, thanks for all you do for the community and the advice above.
Cheers
Fj80oregon
GOLD Star
First of situation sucks. Second contact your mechanic and get your money back. If this is a honest guy like you said than he can pay you back for labor cost incurred. You cover the head parts and make him eat the rest. It’s not like he can’t hear the sound and doesn’t know what your problem is.
- Thread starter
- #75
I totally agree. The mechanic said he was considering $0.00, but I didn't know how bad it was and thought that wasn't totally fair. I told him to take the night to think about it and get back to me. In the morning he settled on 20% discount. I really thought he was going to come back and say fair is to pay for the parts and none of the labor. In the end I paid for $1800 in parts and $1400 in labor.
FMC80
SILVER Star
You have a good attitude. I say, **** this guy. The mechanic will get his one day. No one can escape accountability. Cut your losses and move on which is what I sense you’re already doing.
Last edited:
Yes, he should wear it, he did it. The type who should just do oil changes.
- Thread starter
- #80
I also gave them a call Thursday, they wrote down some info and said they would get back to me. Haven't heard back, I’ll call again Monday. Any good shops in Colorado are sooooo busy at the moment due to the influx of new people to Colorado
