Man, the Toyota LC and Lexus GX/LX lines are getting convoluted... (1 Viewer)

[BigSwede]

So apparently the new Land Cruiser is the same platform and body as the Lexus GX550 (although the GX has the turbo V6 and optional 3rd row seating while the LC has a turbo I4 hybrid and no 3rd row). Meanwhile, the Lexus LX600 is really the successor to the Land Cruiser 200 series luxury off roader. Oh, and apparently this new LC is called the 250 series... but some are calling it a Prado. Clear?

No idea where all this leaves the 4Runner. Speculation is it will be based off of the Tacoma.

I am glad Toyota is going somewhat back to basics from the bloated LC200, especially for the 1958 version which starts at roughly $55k. The new LC does kind of torpedo any musings I have been having about the Ineos Grenadier, for IF I were to change vehicles I would rather spend my money on a Toyota product than an unproven startup company. But in any case, while I do like the looks and idea of the new downsized Land Cruiser, in the end I don't see much reason to change over from my built GX460, as I would have to do most of the same mods as I have already done, plus I have a V8.

 

[GrizzlyClint]

After reading all that I need a drink ... and I don't drink. LOL

 

[Arailt]

The new Land Cruiser (Prado) looks fragile. Notice they have it following a 60 Series in the ads. Probably because it would be noticeably meager compared to an 80, 100, or 200. Really disappointing they’re only offering the 4 cylinder hybrid. At least the GX will have the twin turbo 6.

I’m glad to have the 4.6. Won’t be trading it for either any time soon.

 

[BigSwede]

The new Land Cruiser (Prado) looks fragile. Notice they have it following a 60 Series in the ads. Probably because it would be noticeably meager compared to an 80, 100, or 200.

I gather that they are tying the styling of the headlights to the 60's rectangular headlights. Or something.

 

[Arailt]

I gather that they are tying the styling of the headlights to the 60's rectangular headlights. Or something.

Ahh I see what you mean now. The pictures I saw had round headlights like the FJ and 40 series. I guess they have different trim levels.

 

[BigSwede]

Yeah the 1958 (base) trim has round headlights, the regular LC trim has the rectangular headlights.

 

[jonshonda]

I don't think GX/LX sales have brought in enough revenue to warrant two individual platforms. Sharing a frame means next to nothing with regards to engineering and performance. You can add frame members, hang beefier suspension, etc to make them perform differently.

Not saying there around compromises doing this, but I think it might be the only way Toyota can produce both and make money.

 

[Banandalorian]

Unless the next 4Runner is going to be a more dedicated Bronco/Wrangler competitor and/or the GX550 is getting a huge price increase compared the 460, I am failing to see how the new LC doesn't immediately fall into a similar pricing trap that killed the LC200.

 

[BigSwede]

Unless the next 4Runner is going to be a more dedicated Bronco/Wrangler competitor and/or the GX550 is getting a huge price increase compared the 460, I am failing to see how the new LC doesn't immediately fall into a similar pricing trap that killed the LC200.

I dunno, if they actually start at mid $50k as they are saying, the LC will already be a Bronco/Wrangler competitor. Have you priced a reasonably equipped Wrangler Rubicon JL 4 door lately? And the LC is MUCH roomier inside.

 

[r2m]

It seems odd that the new LC will be:

1. Same size platform
2. 2 rows of seating
3. I-4

Which is all less than the new GX. You mention (BigSwede) that comparing the new LC to the new GX550, considering that the LC has always been the flagship of Toyota and carried over to Lexus as their flagship SUV. Hummm.
Although I absolutely agree that the LC/LX has become too large for serious off roading and I think has been relegated to fire trails and open deserts or anything that can handle it's length and girth.
to the smaller LC!!!

 

[Banandalorian]

I dunno, if they actually start at mid $50k as they are saying, the LC will already be a Bronco/Wrangler competitor. Have you priced a reasonably equipped Wrangler Rubicon JL 4 door lately? And the LC is MUCH roomier inside.

It does look like every LC trim is getting both center and rear lockers plus crawl control. That plus being able to use the hybrid for external power is pretty cool and changes the value proposition quite a bit. I assumed that you'd have to option it to like $65k to get any useful off road goodies and at that point you might as well get a GX550

 

[re_guderian]

LX has a different target market than the LC, and has outsold it (by a pretty massive amount) for the last 22 years. Toyota knows their buyers, and they only care about the sales off the lot, not the used market where the bulk of us 'MUD chumps play. The Sequoia killed the Land Cruiser, while doing nothing but increase LX sales. The GX has sole phenomenally well for a platform of its age. Toyota made a crap-ton of money off the second gen GX. I see enough stratification with the LC at the lower entry point for all of them to be financially successful for Toyota.

 

[BigSwede]

It does look like every LC trim is getting both center and rear lockers plus crawl control. That plus being able to use the hybrid for external power is pretty cool and changes the value proposition quite a bit. I assumed that you'd have to option it to like $65k to get any useful off road goodies and at that point you might as well get a GX550

I think most of the effort to make it fully off road worthy would be aftermarket. Wheels/tires, lift, armor, and front/rear bumpers for approach/departure angles... which is not all that different from what I had to do for the GX460, although I had to add the rear locker which the new LC already has as you note. I suspect the new LC would be a bit easier to fit with bumpers, with hopefully less panel cutting needed.

 

[re_guderian]

I think most of the effort to make it fully off road worthy would be aftermarket. Wheels/tires, lift, armor, and front/rear bumpers for approach/departure angles... which is not all that different from what I had to do for the GX460, although I had to add the rear locker which the new LC already has as you note. I suspect the new LC would be a bit easier to fit with bumpers, with hopefully less panel cutting needed.

and the fact that the wheel wells won't scream at 33's like the GX 460... begs the question, do you even need a lift if you can fit 33's for "most" wheeling.? I've been watching new cruiser generations since the 80 series came out. The fraction of buyers in the first 5 years that aggressively wheel the rigs is super small. A stock rig with 33's will do "a lot" of what most people want to do.

 

[BigSwede]

The new Land Cruiser (Prado) looks fragile. Notice they have it following a 60 Series in the ads. Probably because it would be noticeably meager compared to an 80, 100, or 200. Really disappointing they’re only offering the 4 cylinder hybrid. At least the GX will have the twin turbo 6.

I’m glad to have the 4.6. Won’t be trading it for either any time soon.

I think the hybrid powertrain will be fine for the first ten years, Toyota knows what they are doing. My concern would be the second or third ten years. Will the powertrain remain viable for 30 years? Will people be seeking these LCs that far "down the road", like they do for the 80 series now?

That question probably doesn't matter much to anyone buying one new, but I do wonder about it, even if I won't likely be around to see it.

 

[r2m]

I think the hybrid powertrain will be fine for the first ten years, Toyota knows what they are doing. My concern would be the second or third ten years. Will the powertrain remain viable for 30 years? Will people be seeking these LCs that far "down the road", like they do for the 80 series now?

That question probably doesn't matter much to anyone buying one new, but I do wonder about it, even if I won't likely be around to see it.

Being a hybrid, if nothing else, the batteries will be needing replacement probably every 10 years. Wonder how many clams () that's going to cost??

 

[BigSwede]

... That plus being able to use the hybrid for external power is pretty cool and changes the value proposition quite a bit.

While I do like the 2400 watt inverter, and there is no denying it could be really useful in the event of a power outage, I don't like how the battery pack has elevated the cargo area floor compared to the GX550. I think that and the powertrain would tip the scales toward the GX, if I were in the market.

 

[re_guderian]

Being a hybrid, if nothing else, the batteries will be needing replacement probably every 10 years. Wonder how many clams () that's going to cost??

Meh, Toyota's been making hybrids for a quarter of a century. I've owned 2 Toyotas and a Ford hybrid. The battery failure is over-hyped. It happens, but rarely. The only wildcard would be off-road abuse on the physical integrity. Offset by what I can only hope is programming that enables killer torque delivery in off-road situations. Crawl Control on electric should friggin ROCK!!!

 

[r2m]

While I do like the 2400 watt inverter, and there is no denying it could be really useful in the event of a power outage, I don't like how the battery pack has elevated the cargo area floor compared to the GX550. I think that and the powertrain would tip the scales toward the GX, if I were in the market.

Also curious about weight especially since it has less HP than the new GX550.

• GX550: 346 HP; 479 lbf; can tow 8,000 lbs
• LC (new): 326 HP; 465 lbf; can tow 6,000 lbs

I sure hope the LC weighs in at a lot less than the new GX!

On that note, I have to laugh how announcers, commentators and all the talking heads for automotive companies, including Toyota/Lexus tout horsepower and torque but never talk about vehicle weight or better yet, power to weight ratio. Power to weight ratio is ALL that really matters, except including aerodynamics, but we're talking about vehicles shaped like bread boxes. Who cares if you yell from the hill tops your new vehicle has 1100 HP, but you don't mention weighs in at 20 tons! That's why the old British sport cars were so fast with so little horsepower, they were amazingly light! I've heard one quote from Lotus founder, Chapman himself once said that any car that could hold together for an entire race was too heavy. When Lotus engineers designed a chassis, Chapman ordered them to take out half the rivets.

 

[BigSwede]

I just heard the new LC will get estimated combined mpg of 27! I may have to rethink my opinion on the hybrid powertrain.