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- #21
PDoyle said:
Last week it was 15.2 MPG with my X-Terrains on.
M1 Extended oil (1 Viewer)
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Last week it was 15.2 MPG with my X-Terrains on.
HZJ60 Guy said:
You must be kidding. Take a look at his insoluables, that filter at 15k miles was not running in bypass mode. If it was, the insolubles would have gone through the roof.
I would love to see some hard data on this. Consider that Honda, one of the best engine builders has gone to recommending the filter be changed every other oil change (15k interval) for a little tiny filter. Modern engines run much cleaner than old motors and require much less filtration because the blowby, soot, and particulate matter they create are much lower than older engines.
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- #23
HZJ60 Guy said:
NEVER have done this with 5K intervals and had the head off at around 120k and it was spotless along with the oil pan.
But I would like someone who knows about this stuff to autopsy my filter.
landtank said:
Pm with shipping address is heading your way, I have a filter cutter and have looked at every filter that has coem of my 1FZ, usually not much to see but this one will be nice to look at.
Like Cary said I don’t think we would find the filter completely plugged, not sure if looking at the filter I could give you a thumbs up or down on the bypass filter, if I do find something it will mean shorter full flow oil changes.
Bypass filters are about very small particles, smaller than I can see.
full flow oil filters are an engineering compromise, they are designed catch immediately harmful large particles without being to restrictive as to prevent enough oil flow the parts, anything under 20-45 micron (depending on the filter brand) will pass right through over and over again, by design these smaller particles remain in suspension in the oil until the oil is drained every few thousand miles. If you run long oil drain intervals then these can supposedly build up.
The idea behind a bypass filter is to bleed off a small amount of the oil flow and send it through a very fine filter supposedly down to 1 micron, taking care of these small particles, eventually all of the oil and therefore all of these particles will pass though this filter.
There is much debate about how harmful these small particles actually are and weather bypass filters are cost effective in terms of engine wear/life. But I like the concept and is one of those “safe side” things.
Are you going to post this at BITOG or am I going to have to? Either way it is getting posted, would be better if you did it as you can give them info about how the vehicle is driven and its maintenance history.
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- #25
RavenTai said:
Ahhhhh ok dad......I'll do it.......tomorrow, ok
wussyPup
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RavenTai said:
Why? What is wrong with the Amsoil dual remote? It looks like an easy install without punching/drilling/tapping the valve cover or oil pan.
I like the idea of adding a by-pass filter, and this looks like a nice way to go, so I'd like to know if people have had bad experiences with it.
Amsoil BMK-13 By-Pass Filter
Thanks, -Steve
A bypass filter relies on oil pressure to push oil though. A bypass filter historically was plumbed to a high pressure source and a low pressure return to be effective.
because the Amsoil duel remote is plumbed only to high pressure (high pressure in and high pressure out) and the filters are in parallel there would be almost no differential pressure across the bypass filter, the only differential pressure would be what is generated by the light resistance of the full flow filter, Amsoil got around this by putting a variable restriction (spring and ball, crude differential pressure regulator) on the full flow filter creating a pressure drop across the bypass filter
The result is reduced oil pressure to the engine,
I have only heard of one engine that failed wile using an Amsoil dual remote and it is debatable weather its lost bearings were caused by the filter, even if it was not the cause I don’t think trading oil pressure for good filtrations a good deal. Just as dirty oil is better than no oil, Oil pressure is more important than clean oil
There are similar setups that use an oil cooler adapter between the oil filter and block, the adapter is designed to send oil out to a cooler and then back to the filter, should the cooler become plugged or if the oil is too cold there is a cooler bypass valve in the adapter that allows oil to flow directly to the full flow filter, when you plumb a bypass filter to these ports it acts like a plugged cooler unseating this cooler bypass valve to allow main oil flow, the pressure required to open the bypass generates differential pressure across the bypass filter to make it operate and again reduces oil pressure to the engine.
The amsoil dual remote is much easier to install and if I had went that route it would probably be installed by now but I wont have anything to do with it,
My plan for my oil guard is to put a “T” in the oil sending unit for my source and remove the lower pan drill it and install a bulkhead fitting for return, also need to fab a bracket to mount it, probably on the firewall
because the Amsoil duel remote is plumbed only to high pressure (high pressure in and high pressure out) and the filters are in parallel there would be almost no differential pressure across the bypass filter, the only differential pressure would be what is generated by the light resistance of the full flow filter, Amsoil got around this by putting a variable restriction (spring and ball, crude differential pressure regulator) on the full flow filter creating a pressure drop across the bypass filter
The result is reduced oil pressure to the engine,
I have only heard of one engine that failed wile using an Amsoil dual remote and it is debatable weather its lost bearings were caused by the filter, even if it was not the cause I don’t think trading oil pressure for good filtrations a good deal. Just as dirty oil is better than no oil, Oil pressure is more important than clean oil
There are similar setups that use an oil cooler adapter between the oil filter and block, the adapter is designed to send oil out to a cooler and then back to the filter, should the cooler become plugged or if the oil is too cold there is a cooler bypass valve in the adapter that allows oil to flow directly to the full flow filter, when you plumb a bypass filter to these ports it acts like a plugged cooler unseating this cooler bypass valve to allow main oil flow, the pressure required to open the bypass generates differential pressure across the bypass filter to make it operate and again reduces oil pressure to the engine.
The amsoil dual remote is much easier to install and if I had went that route it would probably be installed by now but I wont have anything to do with it,
My plan for my oil guard is to put a “T” in the oil sending unit for my source and remove the lower pan drill it and install a bulkhead fitting for return, also need to fab a bracket to mount it, probably on the firewall
wussyPup
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RavenTai said:
Thanks for the detailed response; I understand now. I luv this forum.
RavenTai said:
This appears to be the common installation for bypass filters. Is there any concern about the "T" diverting too much flow to the bypass filter and reducing pressure downstream of the sending unit?
Thanks, -Steve
yep that is the clasic routign of a bypass filter, in the early day of piston engines many engines did not get a full flow filter just a bypass filter,
not much concern about robbing oil, the oil the bypass filter skims off the top most of the time is oil that would have otherwise been relieved by the oil pressure relief valve anyway. even when this vavle is closed (idle) we are not talking about a lot of oil, the oil gaurd has a .040" dia restriction in its outlet, I think most bypass filters have a similar sized restriction.
not much concern about robbing oil, the oil the bypass filter skims off the top most of the time is oil that would have otherwise been relieved by the oil pressure relief valve anyway. even when this vavle is closed (idle) we are not talking about a lot of oil, the oil gaurd has a .040" dia restriction in its outlet, I think most bypass filters have a similar sized restriction.
Just for the record and to show how even informed opinions vary, I think that toilet paper (I mean bypass) filters are a waste of time and money.
The proponents talk about them lowering wear, but not one has done any type of comparision to show the benifits. It isn't that hard, take two identical motors, one with a TP filter, one without, run the motors for XXX miles, pull them apart and compare the actual bearing tolerances. A company like Amsoil could easily afford to do this. I believe the reason they don't is they know the two motors will show the same wear.
There are a plethera of people who will say, well I have been running TP filters on my car and it has 300k miles and runs great still. Yea, so what. I bet that same car would be running just as well with regular 5k oil changes on mineral oil and no bypass filter.
I will give an extreme example of how much particulate matter engines will tolerate. My mechanic recently rebuilt the motor on his BMW 2002. The motor was built for the car in about 1980, and used 10:1 pistons, a Schriek 304 cam, ported head, and 45mm weber sidedrafts. It puts out about 165hp and is far more stressed than the stock 2.0l which put out 100hp. This motor, which was used for street driving and track days (car has a full roll cage) made it 250,000 miles. Does anyone want to guess what kind of oil was used, what special filters?
Are you ready?!!! The motor went this far with 3-5k oil changes on Castrol 20w-50 standard Mann oil filters and RUNNING NO AIR FILTERS FOR 20+ YEARS. I guarantee you the UOA's would have scared the living crap out of the guys at BITOG.
Cary
The proponents talk about them lowering wear, but not one has done any type of comparision to show the benifits. It isn't that hard, take two identical motors, one with a TP filter, one without, run the motors for XXX miles, pull them apart and compare the actual bearing tolerances. A company like Amsoil could easily afford to do this. I believe the reason they don't is they know the two motors will show the same wear.
There are a plethera of people who will say, well I have been running TP filters on my car and it has 300k miles and runs great still. Yea, so what. I bet that same car would be running just as well with regular 5k oil changes on mineral oil and no bypass filter.
I will give an extreme example of how much particulate matter engines will tolerate. My mechanic recently rebuilt the motor on his BMW 2002. The motor was built for the car in about 1980, and used 10:1 pistons, a Schriek 304 cam, ported head, and 45mm weber sidedrafts. It puts out about 165hp and is far more stressed than the stock 2.0l which put out 100hp. This motor, which was used for street driving and track days (car has a full roll cage) made it 250,000 miles. Does anyone want to guess what kind of oil was used, what special filters?
Are you ready?!!! The motor went this far with 3-5k oil changes on Castrol 20w-50 standard Mann oil filters and RUNNING NO AIR FILTERS FOR 20+ YEARS. I guarantee you the UOA's would have scared the living crap out of the guys at BITOG.
Cary
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- #32
tried to post on that site and after 1/2 hour of typing that report in and getting it readable once posted the server went down. I'll try later on.
Cary a counter point for you, if that motor actually wore out (not run out of oil or severe overheat other accute event) how much longer would that moter have lasted if it had had an air filter? how much less life would it have if all those abrasives were not being dumped every few K miles? what would have happend if he had run 15K intervals with no air filter?
I dont guess these are anwserable questions without controlled testing like you say. But I do like the concept of bypass filters and I think it does help at some level. I cannot say with any certainty that a bypass filter will necisarily help enough to be worth the cost. I think with long drain intervals this help may be magnified.
and you are right the UOA's would likely scare the @&@&@&@& out of most.
I dont guess these are anwserable questions without controlled testing like you say. But I do like the concept of bypass filters and I think it does help at some level. I cannot say with any certainty that a bypass filter will necisarily help enough to be worth the cost. I think with long drain intervals this help may be magnified.
and you are right the UOA's would likely scare the @&@&@&@& out of most.
This just goes to show everyone that reasonable minds disagree. BMW, Mercedes & Porsche are doing very long intervals with no bypass filters and good quality oil (well excluding the BMW Castrol Crap). As we have seen the UOA's on the Mercedes and Porsches have been great, even at 15-18k with M1 0w-40.
What is a bypass filter going to do for these long intervals? Make the engine last 400k miles instead of 350k? I think that the arguement quickly becomes irrelevant on any well maintaned car. Most vehicles nowdays will be dumped because of electronics or body failure before the engine wears out if they receive any type of regular maintence.
What is a bypass filter going to do for these long intervals? Make the engine last 400k miles instead of 350k? I think that the arguement quickly becomes irrelevant on any well maintaned car. Most vehicles nowdays will be dumped because of electronics or body failure before the engine wears out if they receive any type of regular maintence.
It will be fun to watch the discussion on BITOG. It will end up with:
10 posters saying how great,
2 posters saying that 0w-20 would have been better,
3 posters saying that Redline would show better numbers after being run for 3 intervals,
4 posters asking why nobody is disturbed by the thickening of M1 but everyone jumps on Amsoils for thickning out of grade, and
3.4 posters saying that if you ran lube control in the oil, it would have had a TBN of 6 still and could have gone another 15k miles.
10 posters saying how great,
2 posters saying that 0w-20 would have been better,
3 posters saying that Redline would show better numbers after being run for 3 intervals,
4 posters asking why nobody is disturbed by the thickening of M1 but everyone jumps on Amsoils for thickning out of grade, and
3.4 posters saying that if you ran lube control in the oil, it would have had a TBN of 6 still and could have gone another 15k miles.
cary said:It will be fun to watch the discussion on BITOG. It will end up with:
10 posters saying how great,
2 posters saying that 0w-20 would have been better,
3 posters saying that Redline would show better numbers after being run for 3 intervals,
4 posters asking why nobody is disturbed by the thickening of M1 but everyone jumps on Amsoils for thickning out of grade, and
3.4 posters saying that if you ran lube control in the oil, it would have had a TBN of 6 still and could have gone another 15k miles.
Exactly! You have spent waaaaay too much time on BITOG! Me too, I guess
I'm surprised there haven't been flames over no filter change...on BITOG that is...we did have a little filter flare up here
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- #38
I just dropped in on my post, WOW. These guys seem to be getting pretty excited over it.
Oil Geeks, who'd have thunk.
Oil Geeks, who'd have thunk.
Sounds like they're extremely impressed with the oil AND the engine. It's kind of funny...my Pops used to sell Toyotas at a stealership and I used to do the oil changes for the quick lube at the same stealership in the mid '90s. We look back now at it all and he says to me "Incredible, the people I sold LandCruisers to had NO idea what a machine they were getting into. Hell I didn't even notice the locking diffs, etc." I'm extremely impressed with the motor and how well it wears.
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- #40
I guess the reason I don't get it is I have no idea what the hell they are seeing. All I see is some numbers, some big and some small. If I get some time I'll have to look at some other reports and try to see where mine is so different.
