Looking for recommendations on Suspension setup that won't beat us up.

[CharlieS]

Kings. Call Ben at Filthy. Only way to go.

Kings are amazing, I have had them on two 200s, and I never miss a chance to promote them or Ben at Filthy Motorsports. That being said, IMO, I wouldn't put them out there as a suspension that won't beat you up. They are a performance suspension and ride like one.

 

[bloc]

To be fair they can be sprung and valved to ride like a cloud if that’s what the buyer wants, but I wouldn’t see the point in doing so.

 

[Sandroad]

That won't be happening in the US.

Discount Tire To Acquire Tire Rack And Merge Operations, Creating Leading Omnichannel Tire Buying Experience

/PRNewswire/ -- Discount Tire, a leading independent retailer of tires and wheels, is acquiring Tire Rack, a leading independent tire tester and...

www.prnewswire.com

/threadjack

Wow, big news in the tire world. Too bad it will be hidden in this suspension thread. I suspect tire prices will be going up due to this. If the Tire Rack even survives.

 

[Cruisin911]

Kings are amazing, I have had them on two 200s, and I never miss a chance to promote them or Ben at Filthy Motorsports. That being said, IMO, I wouldn't put them out there as a suspension that won't beat you up. They are a performance suspension and ride like one.

I agree that kings are amazing, as is Ben. However, I cant possibly disagree more about them riding like a performance suspension. My 200 rides like a cadillac and I couldn't be happier. Ive run Icon, Bilstein, and OME. By far, custom valved kings from Ben are the best and most forgivable ride I've had on this truck.

 

[TeCKis300]

No surprise but spring rate is the primary factor in ride quality. Yes, shocks also play a big part to control the suspension, but they generally cannot subtract from the primary spring rate to improve compliance and ride quality. If ride quality is paramount, keep the spring rate relatively near stock rates.

With suspension, there's a whole ton of stuff to balance and sometimes it will be a give or take. Often there's misdirection and conflating things like trying to solve lift height with spring rate, or dialing down dampening of adjustable shocks to improve ride quality. Shocks need to be tuned to spring rate for damping and control. Dialing down only goes so far as again, it can't subtract from spring rate for more compliance, and results with poorer ride quality with less wheel and body control rather than a softer ride. Lifting by spacers is not necessarily a bad strategy to maintain ride quality because it's solving free height/spring length rather than adding spring rate which is more about supporting more weight. Lifting can compromise geometry for anti-dive and roll resistance and using more spring rate can masks those, but will also result in a stiffer overall ride. There's a ton more to say on this topic, but I'll leave it at that.

Here's a short list of various spring rates I had for comparison. Maybe others can add to this list for additional LC springs?

I'll leave the AHC stuff in there just for kicks but understand that LX AHC suspension rates are not just the coil springs as they are on LCs, and likely are progressive rates in combination with the hydraulics. Good for upwards of 1800lbs payload stock.

The OME springs add dramatically to factory spring rates. IMO, I'd avoid those for anything near a stock weight cruiser and non-aggressive driving.

Front Sprints (lbf/in)
LC200 stock 500
Kings standard 600; Optional 650 and 700 rates available
OME 2700: 625, 420 mm free height
OME 2701: 720, 425 mm free height
OME 2702: 625, 430 mm free height
OME 2703: 720, 435 mm free height
BP-51 750


Rear Springs (lbs/in)
LX470 AHC - 95
LX570 AHC - ???
King Springs AHC KTRS-79 - 130
LX450 - 150
LC100 - 170
LC200 - 170
OME 2720 270/350, 420mm & 410mm free height
OME 2721: 270/350, 440mm & 430mm free height
OME 2722: 275, 440mm & 430 mm free height
OME 2723: 340, 450mm & 440mm free height
OME 2724: 400, 445mm & 435mm free height
OME 2725: 440, 445mm & 435mm free height

 

[Angelo1]

How do the Bp-51 ride?

 

[Mohican21]

No surprise but spring rate is the primary factor in ride quality. Yes, shocks also play a big part to control the suspension, but they generally cannot subtract from the primary spring rate to improve compliance and ride quality. If ride quality is paramount, keep the spring rate relatively near stock rates.

With suspension, there's a whole ton of stuff to balance and sometimes it will be a give or take. Often there's misdirection and conflating things like trying to solve lift height with spring rate, or dialing down dampening of adjustable shocks to improve ride quality. Shocks need to be tuned to spring rate for damping and control. Dialing down only goes so far as again, it can't subtract from spring rate for more compliance, and results with poorer ride quality with less wheel and body control rather than a softer ride. Lifting by spacers is not necessarily a bad strategy to maintain ride quality because it's solving free height/spring length rather than adding spring rate which is more about supporting more weight. Lifting can compromise geometry for anti-dive and roll resistance and using more spring rate can masks those, but will also result in a stiffer overall ride. There's a ton more to say on this topic, but I'll leave it at that.

Here's a short list of various spring rates I had for comparison. Maybe others can add to this list for additional LC springs?

I'll leave the AHC stuff in there just for kicks but understand that LX AHC suspension rates are not just the coil springs as they are on LCs, and likely are progressive rates in combination with the hydraulics. Good for upwards of 1800lbs payload stock.

The OME springs add dramatically to factory spring rates. IMO, I'd avoid those for anything near a stock weight cruiser and non-aggressive driving.

Front Sprints (lbf/in)
LC200 stock 500
Kings standard 600; Optional 650 and 700 rates available
OME 2700: 625, 420 mm free height
OME 2701: 720, 425 mm free height
OME 2702: 625, 430 mm free height
OME 2703: 720, 435 mm free height
BP-51 750


Rear Springs (lbs/in)
LX470 AHC - 95
LX570 AHC - ???
King Springs AHC KTRS-79 - 130
LX450 - 150
LC100 - 170
LC200 - 170
OME 2720 270/350, 420mm & 410mm free height
OME 2721: 270/350, 440mm & 430mm free height
OME 2722: 275, 440mm & 430 mm free height
OME 2723: 340, 450mm & 440mm free height
OME 2724: 400, 445mm & 435mm free height
OME 2725: 440, 445mm & 435mm free height

So I was looking into the ome kit for my heritage. Based on your knowledge, would I be better off to just get the front and rear shocks? All I'm really trying to eliminate is the nose dive and reduce some of the body roll.

 

[CharlieS]

I agree that kings are amazing, as is Ben. However, I cant possibly disagree more about them riding like a performance suspension. My 200 rides like a cadillac and I couldn't be happier. Ive run Icon, Bilstein, and OME. By far, custom valved kings from Ben are the best and most forgivable ride I've had on this truck.

Perhaps that is one good and bad thing about custom setups. You and I may have completely different setups based on what we told Ben we wanted out of our suspension. So even though we are both on King 2.5 suspension, you may have a completely different valving, compression/rebound setting, pressure, springs and whatever special magic they put in them for each individual use case. We could be comparing apples and oranges at this point and not know it.

So maybe it is better to say that my specific setup is a performance setup. It is not plush and there is nothing Cadillac like about the ride.

 

[bloc]

I spoke with Ben at Filthy at length while deciding how to set up my kings. He was explicit that springs “only support the weight” and have very little to do with ride quality or vehicle dynamics.

In terms of how this would apply to a set of kings, front spring choice is solely determined by the weight of the rig, from 500#\in up to 700 or more, generally all using the same length of spring. Then valving is adjusted to achieve whatever ride quality you are after.

I found it interesting that he was particularly specific about how much additional weight was hanging off the rear bumper.. and explained that distance behind the rear axle compared to the distance from the axle to the CoG meant anything back there had a large influence on how the vehicle moves during driving. This had to be taken into consideration when deciding what valve stacks to specify.

But, weight back there wouldn’t impact spring choice any more than weight in the cargo area.

Either way.. springs clearly have some effect (imagine the ride quality sitting on bump stops), but within the rate/length options commonly available to us and constrained by ending ride height, their effect is insignificant compared to what can be done with shock valving, whether it is baked in but stiffer than stock like a basic OME setup, externally adjustable like a BP-51, or a configurable combination of the two like kings.

As I said earlier I believe kings are huge overkill for someone simply wanting a cushy ride. Spherical rod ends, ditching the amazing stock upper shock bushing setup, reservoir hose management, eventual rebuild needs.

 

[Tex68w]

Kings are definitely not the right choice for someone who is going to use the vehicle more for a daily than a dedicated off-road rig. As much as I'd love for mine to be sitting on 35's or 37's crawling the Rubicon trail, I will likely never use it like that. I still have my eye on the Dobinsons MRR's.

 

[spazzyfry123]

Did you see this?

Dobinsons mra suspension on 2021

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[TeCKis300]

I spoke with Ben at Filthy at length while deciding how to set up my kings. He was explicit that springs “only support the weight” and have very little to do with ride quality or vehicle dynamics.

In terms of how this would apply to a set of kings, front spring choice is solely determined by the weight of the rig, from 500#\in up to 700 or more, generally all using the same length of spring. Then valving is adjusted to achieve whatever ride quality you are after.

I found it interesting that he was particularly specific about how much additional weight was hanging off the rear bumper.. and explained that distance behind the rear axle compared to the distance from the axle to the CoG meant anything back there had a large influence on how the vehicle moves during driving. This had to be taken into consideration when deciding what valve stacks to specify.

But, weight back there wouldn’t impact spring choice any more than weight in the cargo area.

Either way.. springs clearly have some effect (imagine the ride quality sitting on bump stops), but within the rate/length options commonly available to us and constrained by ending ride height, their effect is insignificant compared to what can be done with shock valving, whether it is baked in but stiffer than stock like a basic OME setup, externally adjustable like a BP-51, or a configurable combination of the two like kings.

As I said earlier I believe kings are huge overkill for someone simply wanting a cushy ride. Spherical rod ends, ditching the amazing stock upper shock bushing setup, reservoir hose management, eventual rebuild needs.

Maybe a simplification for the general audience, and maybe semantics. To say that springs have very little to do with ride quality would be completely off the mark. That doesn't dismiss that shocks play an important role. Perhaps to Ben's point, it needs to be considered as a system. To test the spring rate theory, take it to an extreme - consider an 1-ton F350 truck that's going to have very high spring rates. No shock you're going to throw at that will make it ride well with good compliance on or off-road.

 

[AnyMal]

Im a complete novice here but after playing for countless hours with my truck (diggity), I find it’s all about the balance of the two.

Where the spring is at rest is right where the shock should start loading and providing feedback etc. Thats why I’m under the belief that it’s all about managing for the most static load now, not necessarily for the damping or spring rate independently. This the same problem with tire pressure. Having the capability of loading up 1,500 lbs payload throws the unladen ride character under the bus.

I’ve found in my 100 and 200 that the more load the more compliant the ride becomes.

How to get a synergy going? I don’t know, progressive springs on stiffer shocks?


Are our springs linear?

 

[linuxgod]

Are our springs linear?

Factory springs are 170#/in linear rate in the rear and 500#/in in the front

 

[HROD79]

Thanks guys, to be clear I completely understand that I can get a truly dialed in suspension with custom valving from a King or other rebuildable shock, However I am not really interested in that kind of investment at this point. Also with my experience with Icon's having to rebuild them multiple times over the course of 70k miles. What I am interested in is opinions on ride quality for the more basic systems. I realize adjustability is probably where I should be looking and to be honest might be where I end up spending my money. I just am curious as the the quality of ride people are getting on the low end cost wise. I am currently running about 34psi on tires so not extreme there. I am due to get a new set soon anyways and was looking at 275/70/18 to get a little more size. I ran OME heavy springs on my 4Runner for about a month prior to installing my front and rear bumpers and man that made me miss my 3/4 ton F250 ride ( extremely stiff). After adding the weight my feeling was it was perfect. So what I am afraid of is a system that will add height and spring rate with no additional vehicle weight and cause me to have to add something with mass to smooth out the ride.

 

[AnyMal]

Thanks guys, to be clear I completely understand that I can get a truly dialed in suspension with custom valving from a King or other rebuildable shock, However I am not really interested in that kind of investment at this point. Also with my experience with Icon's having to rebuild them multiple times over the course of 70k miles. What I am interested in is opinions on ride quality for the more basic systems. I realize adjustability is probably where I should be looking and to be honest might be where I end up spending my money. I just am curious as the the quality of ride people are getting on the low end cost wise. I am currently running about 34psi on tires so not extreme there. I am due to get a new set soon anyways and was looking at 275/70/18 to get a little more size. I ran OME heavy springs on my 4Runner for about a month prior to installing my front and rear bumpers and man that made me miss my 3/4 ton F250 ride ( extremely stiff). After adding the weight my feeling was it was perfect. So what I am afraid of is a system that will add height and spring rate with no additional vehicle weight and cause me to have to add something with mass to smooth out the ride.

You’re like right where my mind was a while back. Keep in mind the 200 is front heavy and like was described by @bloc f/r balance is a big contributor to ride. The way axles are levered rear load de loads the front (I know Im butchering here). @TeCKis300 has also fully laid out this concept for the WD hitch front torque load in those discussions and is a similar concept.

All this along with general loading up has the effect of lifting the front end and makes for a smoother ride like I had mentioned. I threw my 3rd row back in for this very reason after heavy experimentation.

Are you saying you like it stiff? Or just want to not be stiff unladen?

In that case I don’t believe there are lesser spring rates other than an AHC spring swap. You would be the first.

I have a set of short rears actually (extra soft).

 

[AnyMal]

You know what, I forgot to say there are probably also suitable spring rates for barebones cruisers overseas… I’m sure some of them are at least 500-1,000 lbs lighter than our US LC. They can’t be on the same springs unless someone is getting shortchanged somewhere.

Those may be exactly what your looking for to pair with oem shocks or adaptable aftermarket with a spacer kit for lift,

 

[bloc]

Maybe a simplification for the general audience, and maybe semantics. To say that springs have very little to do with ride quality would be completely off the mark. That doesn't dismiss that shocks play an important role. Perhaps to Ben's point, it needs to be considered as a system. To test the spring rate theory, take it to an extreme - consider an 1-ton F350 truck that's going to have very high spring rates. No shock you're going to throw at that will make it ride well with good compliance on or off-road.

I guess I didn’t stress my key point enough.. *within the springs that are available to us*, that would put the vehicle at an appropriate height, rate will not impact dynamics much. We can’t get 1-ton dually rate for our vehicles. And even the heavy load options will send a 200 to the moon if it isn’t loaded appropriately.

Either way, Ben knows a whole lot more about this than I do, and he was pretty clear.

 

[linuxgod]

Thanks guys, to be clear I completely understand that I can get a truly dialed in suspension with custom valving from a King or other rebuildable shock, However I am not really interested in that kind of investment at this point. Also with my experience with Icon's having to rebuild them multiple times over the course of 70k miles. What I am interested in is opinions on ride quality for the more basic systems. I realize adjustability is probably where I should be looking and to be honest might be where I end up spending my money. I just am curious as the the quality of ride people are getting on the low end cost wise. I am currently running about 34psi on tires so not extreme there. I am due to get a new set soon anyways and was looking at 275/70/18 to get a little more size. I ran OME heavy springs on my 4Runner for about a month prior to installing my front and rear bumpers and man that made me miss my 3/4 ton F250 ride ( extremely stiff). After adding the weight my feeling was it was perfect. So what I am afraid of is a system that will add height and spring rate with no additional vehicle weight and cause me to have to add something with mass to smooth out the ride.

As I said I love my Tough Dog 45mm adjustables. Call Jason @TRAIL TAILOR. They are IMO the best value option - prices are on the higher side but much closer to OME Nitro or Ironman FCP and so are roughly half what you'd pay for a high end bypass setup. The standard springs increase the rear spring rate a bit but not the front so if you're at factory weight the ride doesn't suffer (and they have stiffer options if you're building up your rig). Plus the ride is adjustable so you can decide how plush or firm you want it. Seriously - set to 0 it floats like a cadillac (very boaty) and at 9 it feels like you're riding on the bump stops and could tell heads or tails if you drove over a quarter. After using these I wouldn't buy another suspension for a truck that didn't have at least some level of compression adjustment available.

Anecdotally - I have 60k miles on mine and I'm still pleased with their ride. We'll see how long they last but I fully expect to get at least 100k miles out of them, likely more. And that 100k is pretty heavy use - either towing, or serious pothole-ridden city streets, with occasional offroad/overland travel (like the 100+ miles we did on White Rim). I've also added 400-500# to my rig since installing and the compression adjusters allowed me to compensate by increasing the compression +1 as I added weight. I increase my rear by +1 or +2 when I'm loaded up with a family of 5 and towing the trailer and dial it back when I'm done with a trip. Adjustment takes ~60 seconds to do all 4 corners, though I normally only adjust the rears.

I'm not a shill for TD, I just think their 45mm adjustables are highly underrated/underreported.

 

[TeCKis300]

I guess I didn’t stress my key point enough.. *within the springs that are available to us*, that would put the vehicle at an appropriate height, rate will not impact dynamics much. We can’t get 1-ton dually rate for our vehicles. And even the heavy load options will send a 200 to the moon if it isn’t loaded appropriately.

Either way, Ben knows a whole lot more about this than I do, and he was pretty clear.

I don't dismiss Ben's knowledge, but his prerogative is to help customers focus on decisions that help make a sale.

Let's try this another way. I think you would agree added air pressure in tires are going to change the effective spring rate of the tire sidewall and forces translated into the chassis in a way that effects ride quality. Even with your king shocks, there will be a noticeable ride difference on account of that the compliance shortcoming.

Just as the spring rate of the suspension is fundamental to ride quality and will have effects.

The shock is equally important to manage and control the ride. But cannot improve on compliance that is not there.

Different faces of the same coin.