Knuckle Rebuild - Did I get ripped off? (2 Viewers)

[landcruisin90]

Hi all,

I have been lurking for a bit, but I am pretty new to the Land Cruiser world, picked up a 1993 Land Cruiser in August. On my drive home from Durham to Nashville I was experiencing a grinding noise that would only happen when I lifted off the throttle at 60+ MPH. The noise is fairly pronounced, and does not last, it only happens on lift off the throttle, lasts a second or two and then stops. I took the LC in to a reputable shop and they said they diagnosed the issue and we ordered parts. The vehicle sat with them for about 2 months and their diagnosis of the issue was that a knuckle rebuild was needed(front brakes were also done). I prepaid 1500 for the parts, and today I was charged another 2200$(1000 is for labor and 900 was for additional parts, + tax). To my dismay, the noise persisted, and they did no work on the drive shaft, which is what seems to be making the noise.

Is this reasonable for a knuckle rebuild, and am I basically SOL that their diagnosis of the issue was wrong and I am out $3500?

The big parts breakdown is this:

2x OEM Spindle Sub Assembly $888(total)
1x Knuckle Kit $290
2x Toyota front axle flange $180(total)
9x Moly Grease $180(total)
2x OEM Front Axle Spindle $420(total)

 

[Malleus]

I'd want to see the old parts. The only reason to replace the spindles is if the bearing journals are toast. You can eyeball them and get a feel for their condition.

When do you hear the noise? When turning or driving straight or both?

$180 for 3 pounds of grease is criminal. You need two of these for this job:

and one half of one of these:

What's the Spindle Sub Assembly and the Front Axle Spindle? FWIW, these are the parts:

A "spindle sub assembly" could be the spindle with bushing installed, but there's only one spindle. Per side that is.

I recently had a hub bearing locknut unwind itself from the lockwasher and lost a hub and a spindle due to the bearings walking in and out on the journals. That wasn't a pleasant sight to see.

 

[landcruisin90]

The vehicle has about 120k miles on it, for context. The noise happens when driving straight(or turning), but only when going 60+ MPH and lifting off the throttle...it like clockwork and a clear grinding sound...almost like gears that are trying to catch.

The spindle sub assembly is part 43401-60081 and was added post the initial estimate(and they never asked nor informed me that it needed to be ordered)...the Front Axle Spindle does not have a part number next to it, so not sure what that is exactly.

I thought 180$ for grease seemed high, but I have no experience on a) how much grease that is and b) how much is needed for a job like this. The shop has great reviews and was recommended to me by a neighbor that uses them for his Defender work.

I am trying to get a sense of how I should proceed in talking to the shop.

 

[midfat]

The grinding noise on lift is likely your driveshaft. It's either out of phase, has a worn U-joint, or perhaps just needs the slip yolk greased. Is the truck lifted? The lift could also be the reason as the pinion angle on the driveshaft increases with lift. Some trucks are more sensitive to this that others, but your driveshafts generally start to complain around 3" of lift.

Any chance your truck has a center locking diff button? If it does, pull your front drive shaft, lock the center diff and drive it in 2WD. If the grinding on lift goes away, it's your front driveshaft. If not, and giving you have fresh knuckles, I'd start looking at diffs, transfer case, etc.

As for whether you got ripped off, hard to say. Entirely possible your knuckles needed a comprehensive rebuild, but as @Malleus mentioned, no way to know for sure without seeing the old parts.

 

[landcruisin90]

@midfat I appreciate the input, really. The truck has a 6 inch lift...its absolutely overkill and would love to take it down to about 3 at some point.I would not be surprised if that is creating the issue. There is a center locking diff button, so I can definitely start playing with those things.

The best I can do is those 2 pictures below, I just have to trust that the old knuckles were past their time.

 

[robnicko]

that noise you describe when lifting off the throttle sounds just like the UNI at the rear diff.
I had exactly the same issue not too long ago and the UNI when mounted in the vehicle felt fine but once the tailshaft removed was evident it was no good. It can also be axial play in the uni in that the bearing cups are not shimmed correctly and it has sideways movement

FWIW, the knuckle rebuild costs - when my 80 was due for the 80,000km service toyota wanted $800 + parts for a front end knuckle service back in the early 2000's . Thats when I invested in a workshop manual......

 

[SpenserAK]

You got jacked on grease, for sure. That's crazy.

They charged you full msrp ($444) for "spindle sub assemblies," and you don't (yet?) know if they were needed (same with flanges). Dealer sites have them at $300, and they can be had for under $200 on eBay for OEM. Granted, that's not how shops price things, but...

I don't know what front axle spindle refers to for an additional $420, when you already have "spindle sub assembly" accounted for. As Malleus said, there's only one "spindle" per side and that's the $444 msrp part shown in the diagram

I'm getting shy of 2K for the parts you listed, which includes the grease price and the mystery "front axle spindles." Was the other ~400+ for brakes?

I'd want to see the old parts. Typically a standard knuckle rebuild is a cleaning/grease service with all new bearings/races, gaskets & inner axle seals. The kit price sounds accurate, at least. I did mine last year and had to buy a variety of tools I didn't already have, and with the kit, grease, and other misc supplies, my list shows I paid a total of $560. No labor charge of course, and my spindles/etc were fine, but something seems off @ $3500

I agree the sound/behavior sounds like a ujoint. Do you know if your lift setup has caster correction? Do you know if it's an OEM front driveshaft? 6" is definitely overkill, as you stated, and once you start hitting 3" & up, with caster correction, it calls for a double cardan front shaft to run smoothly. With a standard front shaft and caster correction, it will run a harsh angle on the rear joint, and eat them up in short time. With no caster correction and stock shaft, I imagine both angles are harsh, but your truck would also handle pretty poorly which you didn't note. I agree and also recommend locking the center diff and pulling the shaft to see if the noise goes away.

Your knuckles don't look "bad," though that's only from the outside (driver's side looks worse). I'm wondering how they came to this conclusion...

 

[COYS]

Hi all,

I have been lurking for a bit, but I am pretty new to the Land Cruiser world, picked up a 1993 Land Cruiser in August. On my drive home from Durham to Nashville I was experiencing a grinding noise that would only happen when I lifted off the throttle at 60+ MPH. The noise is fairly pronounced, and does not last, it only happens on lift off the throttle, lasts a second or two and then stops. I took the LC in to a reputable shop and they said they diagnosed the issue and we ordered parts. The vehicle sat with them for about 2 months and their diagnosis of the issue was that a knuckle rebuild was needed(front brakes were also done). I prepaid 1500 for the parts, and today I was charged another 2200$(1000 is for labor and 900 was for additional parts, + tax). To my dismay, the noise persisted, and they did no work on the drive shaft, which is what seems to be making the noise.

Is this reasonable for a knuckle rebuild, and am I basically SOL that their diagnosis of the issue was wrong and I am out $3500?

The big parts breakdown is this:

2x OEM Spindle Sub Assembly $888(total)
1x Knuckle Kit $290
2x Toyota front axle flange $180(total)
9x Moly Grease $180(total)
2x OEM Front Axle Spindle $420(total)

If they're actually reputable, you wouldn't have to create a new thread here to ask questions dude.

Truth is, everything on your truck is past its prime. You either eat the elephant one bite at a time or Apply Pay swallow the whole thing at an LC shop where cred checks aren't necessary.

Given that your 80 came with an absurd 6" lift, I kinda know where this is headed --> it's just the beginning. Enjoy the journey!

 

[SpenserAK]

Also, look into "damage multiplier." The brush guard you have doesn't offer any real protection, and will actually push into the body panels in a fender bender, causing additional damage and cost that could have only been a dented bumper

 

[COYS]

Also, look into "damage multiplier." The brush guard you have doesn't offer any real protection, and will actually push into the body panels in a fender bender, causing additional damage and cost that could have only been a dented bumper

Damage is damage. Whether it's 3x without or 5x with, you're eating a sht sandwich (@midfat) either way. I personally think it looks cool (the OEM one).

 

[matzell]

spindle hub assembly is the hub with races and bearings. Most do not replace just the race and or bearings and it has rotors if I am not mistaken. Lazy way to do the job, but I know shops that do that.

 

[SpenserAK]

Damage is damage. Whether it's 3x without or 5x with, you're eating a sht sandwich (@midfat) either way. I personally think it looks cool.

I hear ya, but a dented bumper vs body damage is a notable difference IMO. I don't think they look bad at all, just doesn't really make sense to me personally, but certainly to each their own

 

[roflbox]

The vehicle has about 120k miles on it, for context. The noise happens when driving straight(or turning), but only when going 60+ MPH and lifting off the throttle...it like clockwork and a clear grinding sound...almost like gears that are trying to catch.

The spindle sub assembly is part 43401-60081 and was added post the initial estimate(and they never asked nor informed me that it needed to be ordered)...the Front Axle Spindle does not have a part number next to it, so not sure what that is exactly.

I thought 180$ for grease seemed high, but I have no experience on a) how much grease that is and b) how much is needed for a job like this. The shop has great reviews and was recommended to me by a neighbor that uses them for his Defender work.

I am trying to get a sense of how I should proceed in talking to the shop.

name the shop

 

[SpenserAK]

Spindle sub assembly is 43401-60081 with $444 msrp, hence the $888 charge

Wheel hub sub assembly is 43502-69046 with $435 msrp each, and I think they come with races & bearings (which come in the rebuild kit too) so it doesn't sound like they replaced those or I'd expect an $870 charge

 

[Rwhat]

Sounds like it’s the front drive shaft. 6” lift even with a DC shaft will cause that noise.

 

[thatcabledude]

The sound is from your driveline angles because of the large amount of lift.

No castor correction visible in the pics. Must be drop brackets on the frame side. That, or it’s white knuckle down the road.

 

[manofthewoods]

Hi all,

I have been lurking for a bit, but I am pretty new to the Land Cruiser world, picked up a 1993 Land Cruiser in August. On my drive home from Durham to Nashville I was experiencing a grinding noise that would only happen when I lifted off the throttle at 60+ MPH. The noise is fairly pronounced, and does not last, it only happens on lift off the throttle, lasts a second or two and then stops. I took the LC in to a reputable shop and they said they diagnosed the issue and we ordered parts. The vehicle sat with them for about 2 months and their diagnosis of the issue was that a knuckle rebuild was needed(front brakes were also done). I prepaid 1500 for the parts, and today I was charged another 2200$(1000 is for labor and 900 was for additional parts, + tax). To my dismay, the noise persisted, and they did no work on the drive shaft, which is what seems to be making the noise.

Is this reasonable for a knuckle rebuild, and am I basically SOL that their diagnosis of the issue was wrong and I am out $3500?

The big parts breakdown is this:

2x OEM Spindle Sub Assembly $888(total)
1x Knuckle Kit $290
2x Toyota front axle flange $180(total)
9x Moly Grease $180(total)
2x OEM Front Axle Spindle $420(total)

All due respect and affection...
Yes is the answer.
I almost cried reading the above.
Again, due affection/respect, an 80 series is begging for it's loving owner to do ALL the work.
These beasts are of the age (vintage?) that their owners should have another vehicle as a DD or at least a backup.
With a FSM and access to videos such as Otram the work is not difficult and not expensive. Most important, you know it was a) actually done, and b) done right
Enjoy the journey, and
Happy holidays

 

[landcruisin90]

For more context, I bought the vehicle, as is, from a Japanese importer(for about 17k). I do intend to do as much of the work as I can, but wanted to get this issue sorted in case it was something with the transmission, jokes on me though.

The shop is Mill Creek Overland in the Nashville area. They seem to be super nice, but my truck sat there for 2 months, there was little to no communication from them...the reasoning being that parts were on back order and that they got busy in the second month. I may be somewhat clueless, but I could have certainly figured out how to do a knuckle rebuild in 2 months...it seems that I could have messed the job up 3x over and still come out ahead.

They had like 15 LCs in their front lawn, apparently booked solid in business. Again, it may be the case that they did an outstanding job and I am just learning the ropes on how LC shops work...but paying 200$ for grease and then not even getting the right diagnosis does not leave me a lot of faith.

I will do more research on driveline angles since the lift seems to be a likely issue. I did take the LC to get steering aligned and they mentioned that I could not take the lift lower than 4 inches due to some brackets that were either added...or cut off...I really have no idea but didnt give it much thought at the time.

Super appreciative for all the comments, it has been a while since I have participated in a forum, and it really takes me back to the good ole days of the internet.

 

[roflbox]

For more context, I bought the vehicle, as is, from a Japanese importer(for about 17k). I do intend to do as much of the work as I can, but wanted to get this issue sorted in case it was something with the transmission, jokes on me though.

The shop is Mill Creek Overland in the Nashville area. They seem to be super nice, but my truck sat there for 2 months, there was little to no communication from them...the reasoning being that parts were on back order and that they got busy in the second month. I may be somewhat clueless, but I could have certainly figured out how to do a knuckle rebuild in 2 months...it seems that I could have messed the job up 3x over and still come out ahead.

They had like 15 LCs in their front lawn, apparently booked solid in business. Again, it may be the case that they did an outstanding job and I am just learning the ropes on how LC shops work...but paying 200$ for grease and then not even getting the right diagnosis does not leave me a lot of faith.

I will do more research on driveline angles since the lift seems to be a likely issue. I did take the LC to get steering aligned and they mentioned that I could not take the lift lower than 4 inches due to some brackets that were either added...or cut off...I really have no idea but didnt give it much thought at the time.

Super appreciative for all the comments, it has been a while since I have participated in a forum, and it really takes me back to the good ole days of the internet.

good news is that you are in the right spot plenty of resources and threads on here

 

[landcruisin90]

I'm getting shy of 2K for the parts you listed, which includes the grease price and the mystery "front axle spindles." Was the other ~400+ for brakes?

230 for brakes, 20 for RTV(no idea), 20 for brake cleaner, and a bit for a couple of flanges, gaskets.

I agree the sound/behavior sounds like a ujoint. Do you know if your lift setup has caster correction? Do you know if it's an OEM front driveshaft? 6" is definitely overkill, as you stated, and once you start hitting 3" & up, with caster correction, it calls for a double cardan front shaft to run smoothly. With a standard front shaft and caster correction, it will run a harsh angle on the rear joint, and eat them up in short time. With no caster correction and stock shaft, I imagine both angles are harsh, but your truck would also handle pretty poorly which you didn't note. I agree and also recommend locking the center diff and pulling the shaft to see if the noise goes away.

Not sure honestly because I bought it as is with basically no records, I know, I'm a bad boy. TBH I didn't even really think about what 6 inches meant at the time in terms of knock on effects on other components. The highest I have gone is 2.5 on a Jeep, and that was plenty for me. Lots to learn in my future.

The handling is not terrible, initially it veered to the left, but had the wheels balanced and steering adjusted. It handles like a boat really, because I think it basically is one. Suspension is pretty soft.