Instead of getting the clicking when cornering like an Aussie locker you will just tear up your tires. At least that is how I see it.
Kaiser Locker (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Manuelsv
- Start date
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The Aussie would first have to have enough backlash to pop the driver (cam gear?) out.
And not enough torque from the shaft, to pop it back in...
With the Bob's yer locker, that's taken care of in the slop...
To me, getting a rear Aussie or No Slip makes a ton more sense. The no slip has a syncro in it that prevents the ratcheting and it popping back in gear as fast... Or at least that's my understanding...
http://books.google.com/books?id=ty...&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
And not enough torque from the shaft, to pop it back in...
With the Bob's yer locker, that's taken care of in the slop...
To me, getting a rear Aussie or No Slip makes a ton more sense. The no slip has a syncro in it that prevents the ratcheting and it popping back in gear as fast... Or at least that's my understanding...
http://books.google.com/books?id=ty...&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
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That was the most important selling point for me.. I have never felt comfortable with the other automatic lockers on the market because although tried and tested, that strain on the drive-train just IMHO is not good at all especially if you want to keep your kidneys in their place
Based on my experience running an automatic locker (Aussie) in my 80, and the experiences of several others here on this forum--the above quote is not a remotely accurate description of reality.
An auto locker in an 80-series works very well. The Aussie is totally transparent on-road and most off-road situations. Smooth. It's also $300.
I don't know quite how that Experimental Thingamajigee works, but it's 30x the parts that an Aussie Locker has.
ANNNNNNNNNND, since the separation of the carrier is NOT needed, the labor should be at least half of the Aussie... Should you even elect not to put it in yourself...
a
to me... ok, one and a half. For bench pressing that chunk back in. But I elected to do it that way... Replacing the ring on a full case diffamaBob?... Not so much.
rusty_tlc
Dain Bramaged Member
Use a floor jack, it makes install/removal easy......
a
....
- Thread starter
- #26
Videos in action
Could not find any LC videos.. But here are some Youtube.
YouTube - DIFERENCIAL INTELIGENTE KAISER
YouTube - Bloqueios Kaiser no tapete branco MG
YouTube - BLOQUEIO KAISER E ROTA 4 X 4 NO RASGA BANCO
Best one has 2 jeeps one with and oen without! + a Defender 90
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JW2xIDh3k8
Enjoy!
Could not find any LC videos.. But here are some Youtube.
YouTube - DIFERENCIAL INTELIGENTE KAISER
YouTube - Bloqueios Kaiser no tapete branco MG
YouTube - BLOQUEIO KAISER E ROTA 4 X 4 NO RASGA BANCO
Best one has 2 jeeps one with and oen without! + a Defender 90
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JW2xIDh3k8
Enjoy!
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Driving through southern Brasil reminded me of California - huge modern farms and nice smooth highways. All the while I was passing transporters full of brand new $500K John Deer tractors.
Don't underestimate Brasil as some third world country. They have almost 200M people and managed to be one of the few countries to evade the global economic downturn.
They also have a very wealthy upper class that can afford the vehicles which seem so expensive to us.
And they will kill you if your soccer team beats their soccer team.
- Thread starter
- #29
I'll add on the engineering side of things.. Brazil is now the 3rd largest Commercial Aircraft Maker in the world after the U.S, then France(EU) edging out Canada a few years ago with their Embraer Airplanes.. They are an up and coming powerhouse, and I don't doubt their engineering abilities!
I'd certainly trust a Brazilian product over a Chinese product any day!
Oh yeah.. Don't mess with their Football/Soccer!! They take that seriously!!
This looks to me like a complex limited slip. Possible like a Powertrax... It wouldn't be worth the $$ for me. You would be better off with a good, positive rear locker and open front.
I'm pretty sure, the syncro in the Powertrax is an after-the-fact deal. Whereas a clutch pack and spring type ltd slip would be a before-the-fact.
Meaning, it's a locker, but when backlash will let the cam gear out, the powertrax has a syncro that lets the cam gear ride over what would be the next tooth of a conventional Lockright or Aussie... For how long, I don't know... It's prolly in the two (per side, 4 total) inner rings a Powertrax has...
IOWs, it's not a limited slip that has to achieve wheel spin first in order to work properly...
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I was thinking along the lines of the roller bearing delayed blowback on some gun actions: Gas from the shell propels the bullet and some gas returns to start driving the action rearward, but, there is this ball (or balls, I forget exactly) which get squeezed by the heavy rearward force into an indent, which temporarily delays the rearward motion. When the force of the gas is lower the balls have less force and "unlock" and allow the action to continue in reverse.
I'm not a mechanical engineer so maybe I got some things wrong above, but it seems like the same idea to me. In the Kaiser when the force is higher the roller bearings are forced against a race causing them to lock, but when there's lower forces applied the bearings don't resist the rotation.
I would really like to see someone here try a Kaiser out and give us a report!
Ditto, or the cheap china but put together here, Yukon Zip locker...
What's the worst that can happen?
(just as long as it's somebody else, right?)
- Thread starter
- #36
Patience my friend!! I'm on it.. I get it this week, already on order, and I will install weekend after next.. Will do the full write up on install w/lots a pictures
and then I'll gladly go out and 
do some testing Still need a hand here in Phoenix, if anyone wants to help, I am a kinda mechanic 
so if anyone with a or abilities can help ??? 
lowenbrau
SILVER Star
I read on a rover forum that is supposed to be a ZF design. It is certainly an autolocker (not limited slip, not spool) but I don't know what makes it more desirable than a Detroit which is pretty much the pinnacle in the segment. The introductory price seems ok but the regular price is pretty high. Maybe it is quieter. The LR guy figures the pawls would wear quickly on the Kaiser.
I don't see any facilities for c-clips so its going to be a full floater only thing (not a problem for me)
Nice to see another option out there. My elocker has been engaged for the last 10,000km (wiring problem) I'm getting tired of the looks I get every time I turn into a parking lot.
I don't see any facilities for c-clips so its going to be a full floater only thing (not a problem for me)
Nice to see another option out there. My elocker has been engaged for the last 10,000km (wiring problem) I'm getting tired of the looks I get every time I turn into a parking lot.
Hi Guys,
I am new to this forum but I wanted to try and help with some answers to some of the questions floating about on the Kaiser Lockers. One of these units is installed in the rear of my D90 and I will shortly have another one put in the front. That was my truck on the stand at the Expo and I spent quite a bit of time with and picking the brains of the 2 guys from Kaiser who came over. I also spent quite a lot of time before hand working out how it worked and trying to think up how that related to its operation and use.
Here are a few answers to some common questions from reading this thread and from what was asked at the Expo:
1. Both axels are 100% locked to Drive Speed and neither wheel is able to turn slower than the Differential Ring Gear in forward or Reverse at any time. So no wheel spin or sudden 'unloading' or locking of the diff mechanism.
2. Both axels are free to turn faster than the Ring (though not at the same time) if they are being turned faster by the wheels. The wheel on the outside of a bend, going over a rock or into a hole or depression can therefore turn faster than the other since it has more distance to travel. So no snatching, chirping of the tires, drag or resistance when trying to turn or go over uneven ground.
3. It's going to be about the same price as an ARB uninstalled, which is about $900. Installation should be cheaper though as there are no holes to drill, air lines to run and compressors to mount and wire in, etc., etc.
4. Installation was a breeze. I removed my 3rd, took it to Desert Rat in Mesa, they unbolted my stock carrier and removed it, unbolted my Ring Gear and pulled the bearings from the stock unit, refitted them to the Kaiser Unit, bolted the Kaiser Unit into my 3rd housing, checked the run out on the Ring, checked the meshing of the Ring with the Pinion and adjusted it, handed me back the 3rd and I took it home and bolted it back in. Total installation cost was 2 hrs of shop labor and a couple of hours of mine.
5. US Distributors/Retailers are The Expeditioneers in Chandler, AZ. Contact details are here www.expeditioneers.com but they don't have it up on their web site yet so you'll have to call them.
6. No it doesn't need any special type of oil or maintenance.
7. No it doesn't make any noise that I can hear from the driver's seat in operation.
8. Its only new to us here in the US. It's been on the market about 5yrs or so elsewhere and is made by a company that's been in the vehicle parts manufacturing business since the early 60s.
9. In use it operates much the same as a Detroit but inside it's much different and the 'release' is much, much better.
I run an open top LR Defender 90 and I can't hear it in operation no matter what type of driving I am doing. The demo unit on the stand at the Expo made a clicking noise, but in use on my truck, inside the diff housing and immersed in oil it's pretty much silent to the driver. On the road you do not know it's there. It doesn't suddenly unload and make you think you've snapped a shaft or CV, it doesn't chirp or bump the tires and there is no resistance when cornering. My open front 3rd housing is about the same temperature to touch after a fast highway run as the locked rear, so it's not creating any more friction or generating any extra heat. It feels exactly the same as an open diff. Off road it again doesn't announce itself other than by the fact that there is no wheel spin when you lift a wheel. The wheel continues to turn at the same speed as you're moving. So no sudden jerk when you touch down again or find traction. Your wheels are not fighting the ground to overcome a locking force like with a Detroit or locked to the same speed as with an ARB which means you don't lose traction in loose or slippery areas so much. You don't have to think about it. No approaching an obstacle and then having to 'lock it up' half way through.
Off and On Road I think it's one of the easiest designs on the rest of the driveline I have come across. Because there is no force needed to overcome the locking action in a corner, no fighting between evenly locked wheels on uneven ground for traction and no difference in wheel speed before it locks up then there is much less force being transmitted back into the hubs, shafts, R&P, UJs, trans etc. This was one of the biggest factors for me. One of the often overlooked costs with fitting lockers is beefing up the rest of the driveline and that aint cheap. That's why I stayed unlocked so long.
It's kind of hard to describe how it works without seeing it but I'll give it a go. Refer to the exploded diagram that's been posted on here a few times and I'll go through the parts.
1. Starting from the left is a carrier housing end plate.
2. Next is an axel drive unit (notice the splined hole in the middle where your axel shaft goes and the shallow grooves around the outside).
3. Then 30 or so needle bearings that fit into the grooves around the axel drive unit.
4. Not shown in the blow up but shown in red on some of the other diagrams/videos in the thread is the bearing cage.
5. The disk is a slip washer or thrust washer used to keep the 2 axel drive units separated from each other.
6. Big thing with all the holes is the carrier center housing (note the grooves around the inside and the depth and shape of them). This bolts to the housing end plate. The holes around the outside and the groove in the middle is to allow oil to flow through and around it.
7. Starting from the right this time is the other housing end plate. This one is bigger as the Ring Gear is bolted to it. Note the thrust plate on the inside face, there is one on the other end plate as well. These with the slip washer keep the axel drive units in place and separated from each other. They are not clutches and there are no springs.
8. Outside Cover for the center housing.
9. Bearings for the other axel drive unit.
10. Other axel drive unit.
So how does it work? The answer is really simple. In normal operation you are transmitting drive to the wheels from the trans by rotating the carrier housing using the pinion driving the ring gear. As the carrier rotates the shape of the grooves on the inside of the center housing force the needle bearings down until they are pressed into the shallow grooves on the outside faces of the axel drive units. Because there is insufficient room for the housing to pass over the bearings in the shallow grooves then it forces the drive units to also rotate. These rotate the axels and the wheels and you have drive. Since this operates on both drive units you have 100% drive being applied to both wheels at carrier speed. Neither wheel can go slower than the carrier because of the bearings being pushed into the grooves on the drive units. If you look at the grooves on the carrier you will see that they are symmetrical so the same action occurs both forwards and in reverse. The action of applying a driving force from the carrier to the axel is what 'locks' it up. Kaiser says that the shape of these grooves, the manufacturing tolerances used and the materials that the bearings, carrier and drive units are made from is the key to minimizing premature wear.
So how does it 'unlock'? Well it doesn't really. Its more that it 'allows' the wheels to turn faster than the drive input. So the carrier is turning and the bearings are being forced down into the drive units. Now imagine you are turning a corner. The outside wheel must travel further than the inner in about the same period of time as you go round the corner. So the inner wheel continues to turn at the same speed as the carrier is rotating (it can't go slower), the outside wheel is made to go faster by the ground turning the wheel. This speed increase means that the axel is now trying to turn the carrier faster than the carrier is being driven by the driveline. What happens now is that the drive units tries to turn faster and forces the bearings out into the grooves in the carrier. The grooves in the carrier are deep enough to allow the bearings to clear the grooves in the axel drive unit. This means the axel drive unit is free to turn as fast as it wants on that side while the other wheel continues to get drive from the carrier. As soon as the speed of the faster axel slows to match that of the carrier because you have finished the turn, come down off the rock or cleared the hole then the carrier once again becomes the driving force and the bearings are pushed back down into the drive unit and drive is reapplied.
The last bit is the cage that is shown in red in some of the drawings and videos but not on the exploded view. You don't want both wheels to be able to turn faster than the carrier. If they did then you would not be able to use engine breaking on a hill descent, you couldn't use a transmission brake when parked on a hill (sorry, LR reference) and so on. What stops both wheels free spinning is the cage. The two halves are joined in the middle but able to rotate against each other slightly. Because the bearings are set into the cage, it stops both sets being able to travel up into the grooves on the carrier at once. Both can be down, but only 1 set can be up at any one time.
Sorry if that sounded a bit like kindergarten but I was trying to keep it simple. In practice this action is taking place all the time as its pretty rare for both wheels to be turning at the exactly the same speed all the time except on a very straight road. The key is that if there is a difference in the speed of the wheels then the slower wheel is the driven one.
Here is what I learnt from talking to the Kaiser guys:
Its manufactured by a Brazilian Company based in Sau Paulo (sp?) and it has been on the market over there for about 5 years. The company who makes it has been in business for 48 years and they specialize in manufacturing OEM parts for the Heavy Equipment and Agricultural markets. It is the market leader in the local locker market. Somebody in the thread asked why there are so many bolts holding the carrier end plates on? Well consider the markets that they come from and a little bit of 'over engineering' might start to make sense?
They have waited to introduce it to the US market so as to make sure that the manufacturing processes and any kinks where worked out. They have been and continue to work with materials selection/preparation and manufacturing tolerances for example to make it as strong and hard wearing as possible. Besides 4x4s they market it for race cars, drag cars, rally cars, vans, trucks, tractors, etc. so it gets pretty well tested in many different applications.
They are confident in the product enough that they specifically state that their warranty is not biased by any modifications you may have made to the vehicle. They don't care if you have chipped the ECU, are running 37s, an under drive, etc. Some of the other manufacturers out there may make claims of longer warranties until you read the fine print.
In case you're wondering, I do not work for and have no official affiliation with Kaiser or The Expeditioneers. I make no money or gain in any way from sales of these units. I have one fitted to my truck, plan to get another one and I have spent some time grilling the guys that make it so as to better understand it myself. I work on my own truck and I like to know how the bits fitted to it work so I can fix them or remove them when they break out in the middle of nowhere. I firmly believe this to be a good product. I don't want to see it get a bunch of bad press or bad mouthed because it's new and people don't understand it or think it's doing something it isn't.
Thanks and sorry for the essay length post. Hope it answered some questions though.
Ian
I am new to this forum but I wanted to try and help with some answers to some of the questions floating about on the Kaiser Lockers. One of these units is installed in the rear of my D90 and I will shortly have another one put in the front. That was my truck on the stand at the Expo and I spent quite a bit of time with and picking the brains of the 2 guys from Kaiser who came over. I also spent quite a lot of time before hand working out how it worked and trying to think up how that related to its operation and use.
Here are a few answers to some common questions from reading this thread and from what was asked at the Expo:
1. Both axels are 100% locked to Drive Speed and neither wheel is able to turn slower than the Differential Ring Gear in forward or Reverse at any time. So no wheel spin or sudden 'unloading' or locking of the diff mechanism.
2. Both axels are free to turn faster than the Ring (though not at the same time) if they are being turned faster by the wheels. The wheel on the outside of a bend, going over a rock or into a hole or depression can therefore turn faster than the other since it has more distance to travel. So no snatching, chirping of the tires, drag or resistance when trying to turn or go over uneven ground.
3. It's going to be about the same price as an ARB uninstalled, which is about $900. Installation should be cheaper though as there are no holes to drill, air lines to run and compressors to mount and wire in, etc., etc.
4. Installation was a breeze. I removed my 3rd, took it to Desert Rat in Mesa, they unbolted my stock carrier and removed it, unbolted my Ring Gear and pulled the bearings from the stock unit, refitted them to the Kaiser Unit, bolted the Kaiser Unit into my 3rd housing, checked the run out on the Ring, checked the meshing of the Ring with the Pinion and adjusted it, handed me back the 3rd and I took it home and bolted it back in. Total installation cost was 2 hrs of shop labor and a couple of hours of mine.
5. US Distributors/Retailers are The Expeditioneers in Chandler, AZ. Contact details are here www.expeditioneers.com but they don't have it up on their web site yet so you'll have to call them.
6. No it doesn't need any special type of oil or maintenance.
7. No it doesn't make any noise that I can hear from the driver's seat in operation.
8. Its only new to us here in the US. It's been on the market about 5yrs or so elsewhere and is made by a company that's been in the vehicle parts manufacturing business since the early 60s.
9. In use it operates much the same as a Detroit but inside it's much different and the 'release' is much, much better.
I run an open top LR Defender 90 and I can't hear it in operation no matter what type of driving I am doing. The demo unit on the stand at the Expo made a clicking noise, but in use on my truck, inside the diff housing and immersed in oil it's pretty much silent to the driver. On the road you do not know it's there. It doesn't suddenly unload and make you think you've snapped a shaft or CV, it doesn't chirp or bump the tires and there is no resistance when cornering. My open front 3rd housing is about the same temperature to touch after a fast highway run as the locked rear, so it's not creating any more friction or generating any extra heat. It feels exactly the same as an open diff. Off road it again doesn't announce itself other than by the fact that there is no wheel spin when you lift a wheel. The wheel continues to turn at the same speed as you're moving. So no sudden jerk when you touch down again or find traction. Your wheels are not fighting the ground to overcome a locking force like with a Detroit or locked to the same speed as with an ARB which means you don't lose traction in loose or slippery areas so much. You don't have to think about it. No approaching an obstacle and then having to 'lock it up' half way through.
Off and On Road I think it's one of the easiest designs on the rest of the driveline I have come across. Because there is no force needed to overcome the locking action in a corner, no fighting between evenly locked wheels on uneven ground for traction and no difference in wheel speed before it locks up then there is much less force being transmitted back into the hubs, shafts, R&P, UJs, trans etc. This was one of the biggest factors for me. One of the often overlooked costs with fitting lockers is beefing up the rest of the driveline and that aint cheap. That's why I stayed unlocked so long.
It's kind of hard to describe how it works without seeing it but I'll give it a go. Refer to the exploded diagram that's been posted on here a few times and I'll go through the parts.
1. Starting from the left is a carrier housing end plate.
2. Next is an axel drive unit (notice the splined hole in the middle where your axel shaft goes and the shallow grooves around the outside).
3. Then 30 or so needle bearings that fit into the grooves around the axel drive unit.
4. Not shown in the blow up but shown in red on some of the other diagrams/videos in the thread is the bearing cage.
5. The disk is a slip washer or thrust washer used to keep the 2 axel drive units separated from each other.
6. Big thing with all the holes is the carrier center housing (note the grooves around the inside and the depth and shape of them). This bolts to the housing end plate. The holes around the outside and the groove in the middle is to allow oil to flow through and around it.
7. Starting from the right this time is the other housing end plate. This one is bigger as the Ring Gear is bolted to it. Note the thrust plate on the inside face, there is one on the other end plate as well. These with the slip washer keep the axel drive units in place and separated from each other. They are not clutches and there are no springs.
8. Outside Cover for the center housing.
9. Bearings for the other axel drive unit.
10. Other axel drive unit.
So how does it work? The answer is really simple. In normal operation you are transmitting drive to the wheels from the trans by rotating the carrier housing using the pinion driving the ring gear. As the carrier rotates the shape of the grooves on the inside of the center housing force the needle bearings down until they are pressed into the shallow grooves on the outside faces of the axel drive units. Because there is insufficient room for the housing to pass over the bearings in the shallow grooves then it forces the drive units to also rotate. These rotate the axels and the wheels and you have drive. Since this operates on both drive units you have 100% drive being applied to both wheels at carrier speed. Neither wheel can go slower than the carrier because of the bearings being pushed into the grooves on the drive units. If you look at the grooves on the carrier you will see that they are symmetrical so the same action occurs both forwards and in reverse. The action of applying a driving force from the carrier to the axel is what 'locks' it up. Kaiser says that the shape of these grooves, the manufacturing tolerances used and the materials that the bearings, carrier and drive units are made from is the key to minimizing premature wear.
So how does it 'unlock'? Well it doesn't really. Its more that it 'allows' the wheels to turn faster than the drive input. So the carrier is turning and the bearings are being forced down into the drive units. Now imagine you are turning a corner. The outside wheel must travel further than the inner in about the same period of time as you go round the corner. So the inner wheel continues to turn at the same speed as the carrier is rotating (it can't go slower), the outside wheel is made to go faster by the ground turning the wheel. This speed increase means that the axel is now trying to turn the carrier faster than the carrier is being driven by the driveline. What happens now is that the drive units tries to turn faster and forces the bearings out into the grooves in the carrier. The grooves in the carrier are deep enough to allow the bearings to clear the grooves in the axel drive unit. This means the axel drive unit is free to turn as fast as it wants on that side while the other wheel continues to get drive from the carrier. As soon as the speed of the faster axel slows to match that of the carrier because you have finished the turn, come down off the rock or cleared the hole then the carrier once again becomes the driving force and the bearings are pushed back down into the drive unit and drive is reapplied.
The last bit is the cage that is shown in red in some of the drawings and videos but not on the exploded view. You don't want both wheels to be able to turn faster than the carrier. If they did then you would not be able to use engine breaking on a hill descent, you couldn't use a transmission brake when parked on a hill (sorry, LR reference) and so on. What stops both wheels free spinning is the cage. The two halves are joined in the middle but able to rotate against each other slightly. Because the bearings are set into the cage, it stops both sets being able to travel up into the grooves on the carrier at once. Both can be down, but only 1 set can be up at any one time.
Sorry if that sounded a bit like kindergarten but I was trying to keep it simple. In practice this action is taking place all the time as its pretty rare for both wheels to be turning at the exactly the same speed all the time except on a very straight road. The key is that if there is a difference in the speed of the wheels then the slower wheel is the driven one.
Here is what I learnt from talking to the Kaiser guys:
Its manufactured by a Brazilian Company based in Sau Paulo (sp?) and it has been on the market over there for about 5 years. The company who makes it has been in business for 48 years and they specialize in manufacturing OEM parts for the Heavy Equipment and Agricultural markets. It is the market leader in the local locker market. Somebody in the thread asked why there are so many bolts holding the carrier end plates on? Well consider the markets that they come from and a little bit of 'over engineering' might start to make sense?
They have waited to introduce it to the US market so as to make sure that the manufacturing processes and any kinks where worked out. They have been and continue to work with materials selection/preparation and manufacturing tolerances for example to make it as strong and hard wearing as possible. Besides 4x4s they market it for race cars, drag cars, rally cars, vans, trucks, tractors, etc. so it gets pretty well tested in many different applications.
They are confident in the product enough that they specifically state that their warranty is not biased by any modifications you may have made to the vehicle. They don't care if you have chipped the ECU, are running 37s, an under drive, etc. Some of the other manufacturers out there may make claims of longer warranties until you read the fine print.
In case you're wondering, I do not work for and have no official affiliation with Kaiser or The Expeditioneers. I make no money or gain in any way from sales of these units. I have one fitted to my truck, plan to get another one and I have spent some time grilling the guys that make it so as to better understand it myself. I work on my own truck and I like to know how the bits fitted to it work so I can fix them or remove them when they break out in the middle of nowhere. I firmly believe this to be a good product. I don't want to see it get a bunch of bad press or bad mouthed because it's new and people don't understand it or think it's doing something it isn't.
Thanks and sorry for the essay length post. Hope it answered some questions though.
Ian
I'm not reading all of that... And come on guys... Anything that bumps what would be the other, lifeless, side of an axle shaft is not the patrons saint of lockers...
if it floats yer boat, then fine... but otherwise, all it does is bump another shaft...
if it floats yer boat, then fine... but otherwise, all it does is bump another shaft...
